Lean dosing pros and cons

[dw1305]

Hi all,

it could be that when NO3 is the main source of N, it might be wise to add bit more Mo to increase the Nitrogen uptake by those plants, where they have easy uptake of NH4 without the need for Mo.

It could be <"molybdenum (Mo)">. I haven't ever done this very scientifically, with the original wastewater work it is <"plenty of everything">, and subsequently it has usually been in planted tanks with some livestock present and/or a <"commercial fertiliser mix">, with both urea and nitrate nitrogen.

also what if these floating plant are actually using most of the NH4 soon as its formed in the aquarium naturally? so weather you add 5,10,30,50 ppm NO3, they still try to go for available NH4 first before they start using the NO3?

Yes, I think you are right, it is the <"low hanging fruit argument">.

this is how the Nitrogen cycle works in our aquarium and I strongly believe that these plants are great ammonia/ammonium remover.

Yes definitely, there is a large body of scientific research on phytoremediation <"using Limnobium laevigatum"> and a huge amount using floating plants more generally <"Hu, H., Xiang L., Shaohua W., & Chunping, Y (2020) "Sustainable livestock wastewater treatment via phytoremediation: Current status and future perspectives" Bioresource Technology, 315">

I have seen these plant take yellow color when NO3 is the main source of N in the water. they only obtained better color when the NO3 became lower. these floating plant might be good indicator for some nutrients but not all, they frequently obtained yellow growth which appear to look like that they are suffering from N deficiency even in presence of 50 ppm NO3.

I've thought about this in terms of the "Duckweed index" and I think it doesn't actually matter if leaf greeness is a measure of just ammonium nitrogen and leaf growth a measure of all fixed nitrogen. I'm not worried about the nitrate in terms of fish health and the plants are still depleting it.

Because it is only really planted tank keepers who add nitrogen as nitrate (NO3) I've struggled to find scientific references that look at the effects purely of nitrate nitrogen addition. There are some papers on the physical uptake of ions by root hairs, because a Limnobium sp. was the model plant used. <"Huimin, F., Xiaorong F., Miller, A. & Guohua X (2020) "Plant nitrogen uptake and assimilation: regulation of cellular pH homeostasis" Journal of Experimental Botany, 71(15) pp. 4380–4392">.

the paleness remain under the presence of all the nutrient at higher level. not all of them were pale, it was some leaves which looked normal and some leaves were still showing yellow color, soon as I added some NH4 the entire surface maintained green color. so there is something somewhere which could be related to struggle to use NO3 as the only source.

You definitely get instant greening with ammonia addition, possibly <"because of luxury uptake">?

cheers Darrel

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

suggesting vallisneria won't do well in low kh/gh parameters..

It didn't for me, but I haven't tried growing it for a long time, and all my tanks are pretty nutrient depleted.

cheers Darrel

 

[John q]

Hi all,

It didn't for me, but I haven't tried growing it for a long time, and all my tanks are pretty nutrient depleted.

cheers Darrel

I think that's the crux of it. We as a collective asumme A=B, therfore C can't possibly work. I guess we need to be more open minded about these things and contemplate that C might work.

That thought probably ties in well with this thread.

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

I think that's the crux of it. We as a collective asumme A=B, therfore C can't possibly work. I guess we need to be more open minded about these things and contemplate that C might work.

Agreed, it is the <"unknown unknowns"> that are the real problem. You have to keep <"an open-mind">, although we will all have some <"faith positions">. It was the difficulties of dealing with <"shades or grey"> that first made me look more closely at <"probability based solutions">.

If we all report our findings, eventually we may be able to use a <"modelling approach"> to quantify what works and what doesn't, even if we still don't know why it works.

cheers Darrel

 

[Hufsa]

What I do see is people repeatedly suggesting vallisneria won't do well in low kh/gh parameters..

Guilty Ive tried to qualify the statement by pairing it with "it seems", but still guilty. Mine didnt do well, but I shouldnt perpetuate a theory I have not tested better. Definitely could have been something else that caused it not to do well. Consider me duly corrected

 

[hypnogogia]

Nor am I. What I do see is people repeatedly suggesting vallisneria won't do well in low kh/gh parameters.. This is a myth. It will grow fine in 1kh 2gh water. Can't comment on the dosing regime as of yet, still early days so currently sat on the fence 😄

I had some Vallis in soft water. Was using full EI and it grew like weeds. Constantly had to cut it back and also thin it out regularly.

 

[Happi]

Few more shots from My experimental journey.

 

[Happi]

Somone who used the clone version of My Tropica for testing purpose, using Urea as N.

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

Few more shots from My experimental journey.

You would have to say they all look pretty healthy. Are these lean dosing tanks? I'm a <"lean doser">, but my plants are never vibrant like yours.

cheers Darrel

 

[Happi]

Hi all,

You would have to say they all look pretty healthy. Are these lean dosing tanks? I'm a <"lean doser">, but my plants are never vibrant like yours.

cheers Darrel

I wouldn't say that they were all healthy or in perfect conditions. am not expecting them to be during experimental stage, because what am looking for is when they melt, when the stem turn black, when they stunt, when they die or when they are deficient etc. under different conditions. in order for me to do that I had to make changes to the ratio and the nutrients, some plant were quick to show the results while some were bit slower to respond. no one seems to pay close attention to the lower part of the stems where am looking for Deficiency of a mobile Nutrients, in most cases I have seen a plant that only looked healthy at the top while the bottom stem and the leaves are either dying or getting some kind of Deficiency. am also looking for a immobile nutrients deficiency when am looking at the plants, we also have to understand that some nutrients deficiency are not truly deficiency but they could appear that way. some people confuse the pin holes with potassium deficiency when it could be related to Micro nutrient. Alternanthera family of the plant species are also challenge for many hobbyist, but I had to make several changes to get them to grow properly, the main changes when they responded the best was under the Marchner Ratio. Tonnina didn't fully enjoy the very high doses of NH4, it stopped melting when the doses of NH4 was cut in smaller doses. if you were to add Alternanthera and Tonnina in the same tank and dose heavy dosing, Tonnina will probably do better than the Alternanthera even though Alternanthera suppose to be much easier plant compared to Tonnina.

also keep in mind that I keep the co2 stable and only made changes to the Nutrients, Ratio, chemicals etc. to observe the changes in plant. the pictures I share with you guys are from the time when experimental were taking place, so you can expect to see where things looked good or bad.

the last two picture are from my friend who wanted to try one of the recipe, those pictures are from when he was just barely learning how to make his own Micros at home. Pogostemon seems to be doing well for him while I have seen many people stunt this plant quite easily. I wouldn't say he was able to grow everything perfect but he was just getting started.


For Example

This plant stem usually turn black when something is either lacking or something is in excess:

​

 

[Happi]

I don't fully rely on terrestrial plant data when looking for toxicity or deficiencies in aquatic plant, I strongly believe that there is a huge gap between the plant grown under the water vs plant grown outside of the water in the soil. there is also a huge gap between nutrients in the water vs in the soil outside of the water. I look at the terrestrial plant data just for reference, not for final conclusion.

think about it, if the data is correct then if you were only adding 1 ppm Ca weekly and it continue to grow plant without Deficiency until at some point plant start to show Ca deficiency because it should only appear on new growth because Ca is Immobile, then this would suggest that the need for Ca is no where near 30 ppm Ca or higher. lets assume it took a one week to show Deficiency then it would be wise to add 2 ppm Ca weekly so you have 1 ppm Extra.

also look at Mo and N, they both are mobile, if you don't add enough Mo while using KNO3, you will constantly get N Deficiency which is where most people have yellowing of the older leaves on their stems. this can also be countered by NH4 which doesn't require Mo and your plant will maintain better coloration and health even on the lower leaves and stems.

Zinc is also immobile, so it should show the Zn deficiency only on the new leaves, yet Tropica uses very low Zn in their fertilizer and there is no Zn deficiency while on the other hand Seachem adds tons of Zn in there flourish trace. its still questionable why such a wide gap between the two when they both are focused on aquatic plant. maybe Zinc is immobile according to Tropica and immobile according to Seachem?

Nutrient Deficiencies - MSU Extension Soil Fertility | Montana State University

 

[eminor]

so far lean dosing give me way less algae, bba disapeared, i tried for a year to win against it, i tought my co2 was faulty, nope, i think EI is not for me then

 

[erwin123]

so far lean dosing give me way less algae, bba disapeared, i tried for a year to win against it, i tought my co2 was faulty, nope, i think EI is not for me then

pls update photos so we can see the Furcata, Tuberculatum and Wallichii! must be super red already with lean dosing!

 

[Hufsa]

Zinc is also immobile, so it should show the Zn deficiency only on the new leaves, yet Tropica uses very low Zn in their fertilizer and there is no Zn deficiency while on the other hand Seachem adds tons of Zn in there flourish trace. its still questionable why such a wide gap between the two when they both are focused on aquatic plant. maybe Zinc is immobile according to Tropica and immobile according to Seachem?

Could it be that Tropica contains chelated zinc while Flourish unchelated? It could account for the difference. If Seachem is assuming some of the zinc will be precipitated out, perhaps thats why they are adding a bit extra

 

[plantnoobdude]

I assume this info will be of interest to a lot of you. notice the ratio, quite similar to marschhner and what people such as happi dose.
these numbers are based on 20g of plant growth per month and critical concentration of elodea nuttalli.

 

[Happi]

so far lean dosing give me way less algae, bba disapeared, i tried for a year to win against it, i tought my co2 was faulty, nope, i think EI is not for me then

looking forward to see some pictures and updates.

Could it be that Tropica contains chelated zinc while Flourish unchelated? It could account for the difference. If Seachem is assuming some of the zinc will be precipitated out, perhaps thats why they are adding a bit extra

not necessarily, because I have used the low amount of Zn while using ZnSO4 with the same good results. seachem dose of Zn is beyond my understanding, even lets assume most of it will be precipitated. but most of their other heavy metals such as Mn which is more important than Zn and needed in higher quantity is kept at much lower number compared to Zn, which will also precipitate under several condition. Zn is also listed as toxic to plant and fishes/shrimps in higher quantities. so I truly don't know the seachem logic behind dosing of high Zn, except that its easily precipitated compared to other nutrients but so are some of the other heavy metals.

 

[plantnoobdude]

so far lean dosing give me way less algae, bba disapeared, i tried for a year to win against it, i tought my co2 was faulty, nope, i think EI is not for me then

what approach did you use? csm+b and kno3 plus kh2po4? or something else.

 

[plantnoobdude]

I assume this info will be of interest to a lot of you. notice the ratio, quite similar to marschhner and what people such as happi dose.
these numbers are based on 20g of plant growth per month and critical concentration of elodea nuttalli.
View attachment 181206

these have been adjusted to ratio (thanks happi)
N 1
P 0.0875
K 0.5
Ca 0.175
Mg 0.0625

Fe 0.00375
Mn 0.00025
B 0.00008125
Zn 0.0005
Cu 0.00005
Mo 0.000009375
S 0.05

shockingly close to marschner numbers,

N 1
K 0.6666
Ca 0.3332
Mg 0.1332
P 0.1332
S 0.066666
Cl 0.006666
Fe 0.006666
B 0.001332
Mn 0.003332
Zn 0.001332
Cu 0.0004
Mo 0.0000066
Ni 0.0000066

Diana's tank needs ~0.4ppm N weekly in low tech. as a reference EI is something like 7ppm N an lean dosing is somewhere around 2-3ppm N.

 

[Happi]

these have been adjusted to ratio (thanks happi)
N 1
P 0.0875
K 0.5
Ca 0.175
Mg 0.0625

Fe 0.00375
Mn 0.00025
B 0.00008125
Zn 0.0005
Cu 0.00005
Mo 0.000009375
S 0.05

shockingly close to marschner numbers,

N 1
K 0.6666
Ca 0.3332
Mg 0.1332
P 0.1332
S 0.066666
Cl 0.006666
Fe 0.006666
B 0.001332
Mn 0.003332
Zn 0.001332
Cu 0.0004
Mo 0.0000066
Ni 0.0000066

Diana's tank needs ~0.4ppm N weekly in low tech. as a reference EI is something like 7ppm N an lean dosing is somewhere around 2-3ppm N.

I don't know if my math was correct because I did it when I was half asleep.

 

[eminor]

what approach did you use? csm+b and kno3 plus kh2po4? or something else.

csm+b and kno3 + kh2po4, 3:1 ca:mg ratio, i still use it for lean exept i added iron dtpa