Lean dosing pros and cons

[Happi]

@John q​

Weekly Dose:
N 2.65 (your current dose)
P 0.35 (use this)
K 6
Mg 1
Fe 0.4ppm from csm+b trace

use this instead, your current dose of PO4 seems very low compared to the N. you do not have to worry too much about the livestock while using Urea under your water parameters. you could be adding 0.5 N daily from Urea and consider it a safe dose if you wanted. also it would be wise to keep the 1 ppm Mg because you are dosing much higher N and K. no need to add Fe DTPA to this Mix as it will further affect the Fe and Mn ratio. I still encourage you to try a different name brand for Micro and avoid using csm+b if possible.

 

[JoshP12]

Hi @JoshP12

I use Flourish P, Flourish Fe and Flourish Trace. But, that's only because I'm trying to use them up! Details of the Nitrogen source to follow at a later date. What I'm doing is akin to The Beatles' Magical Mystery Tour but they're not coming to take me away - just yet!

JPC

Thanks for sharing that John.

We complain about seachem being so light on ferts - it’s worse than ADA lol. But pair it with glut and you have a slow growing co2 injected tank without injecting co2. Their N source is urea. It’s so lean without falling short of anything. Use their fluorite and you literally have nothing in the water (but you have everything). Their booster has loads of potassium —- everything lean lean lean except
Booster.

It’s not a coincidence that potassium can be regulated internally by the plant to some extent relative to the other nutrients and them and ADA run it in such excess.

 

[Happi]

@JoshP12

this is the biggest question and I do not know the philosophy behind ADA or Seachem to use so much K, when Tropica choose to dose very little. according to many scientist and books, it seems that K, Fe and traces should be our main focus and not to worry way too much about N and P in our aquarium.

it would be appropriate to dose little extra K for those who hardly change water, as this will prevent the N and P from building up in the aquarium.

 

[plantnoobdude]

been about three days since dosing new micros, macros still the same. previously was dosing apfuk micro mix, @ 1ppm per week. has horrible deficiency in many plants. new micros only at 0.1ppm dtpa per week from One of Happi's recipe.

you can see the leaf tips of tonina improving.
this is how the whole group looks.

 

[plantnoobdude]

And here I am, in sticky situation. I have a bags worth of ada amazonia soaking in water right now, and it's been about a month. on one hand i want to do whats best for the tank and throw it in the tank. but i realise that wouldn't be too good a comparison for lean dosing.... and not so useful info for the thread, but i also don't want to waste the amazing growth you can get from the first couple months of amazonia...

 

[Hufsa]

And here I am, in sticky situation. I have a bags worth of ada amazonia soaking in water right now, and it's been about a month. on one hand i want to do whats best for the tank and throw it in the tank. but i realise that wouldn't be too good a comparison for lean dosing.... and not so useful info for the thread, but i also don't want to waste the amazing growth you can get from the first couple months of amazonia...

I love the picture in the previous post, super interesting. But could you not resume lean dosing experiment after your have gotten those fresh months of amazonia? I assume you spent good money on it, I would not blame you 😉

 

[plantnoobdude]

I love the picture in the previous post, super interesting. But could you not resume lean dosing experiment after your have gotten those fresh months of amazonia? I assume you spent good money on it, I would not blame you 😉

yeah, I think i will do that. first few weeks will prob be K and micros alone and slowly introduce urea and po4. please forgive me people of ukaps!

 

[John q]

on one hand i want to do whats best for the tank and throw it in the tank. but i realise that wouldn't be too good a comparison for lean dosing.... and not so useful info for the thread, but i also don't want to waste the amazing growth you can get from the first couple months of amazonia...

And your question is.... put it in the tank, we can make comparisons at a later date 😁

 

[Karmicnull]

As the king of slow I have to agree. We'll all still be here when the experiment resumes!

 

[erwin123]

I have been gradually reducing my water column dosing and its now 50% of the manfacturers dosage, a relatively economical 1ml a day which gives me

N 6.44ppm
P 2.1ppm
K 8.6ppm
Fe 0.25ppm (+0.2ppm EDDHA-Fe into substrate)
Mg 0.7ppm (+4ppm Epsom salt)

This wouldn't count as lean dosing, more like 'reduced dosing' , but hopefully there is a middle ground where most plants are happy and the A. Pedicatella leaves don't wrinkle and the stems turn red. 🙂

 

[Happi]

@plantnoobdude
The micro dosing still will be beneficial even if you were to use new soil. The soil mainly release Ammonia or Ammonium into the water, so you could still use that micro recipe.

I did recommend using the existing soil and eventually start adding urea and watch your plant grow like they would grow in new soil which majorly benefits from NH4.

I would wait two more weeks to start to see how the new dosing is working. 1 week there will be some minor noticeable difference.

Don't forget to add some Magnesium or the plant will look white despite adding all the micros.

 

[plantnoobdude]

I would wait two more weeks to start to see how the new dosing is working. 1 week there will be some minor noticeable difference.

so do you suggest add small amount of urea maybe 1ppm per week, and keep the same micros? or keep macros the same.

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

you can see the leaf tips of tonina improving.

That is iron (Fe) deficiency and possibly a <"recovery from iron deficiency">. The reason I say possibly is that I would expect the lower portion of the leaf to green, rather than the tip (below).

new micros only at 0.1ppm dtpa per week from One of Happi's recipe.

See what happens, they are trace elements because plants need them in <"trace amounts">.

cheers Darrel

 

[plantnoobdude]

i

That is iron (Fe) deficiency and possibly a <"recovery from iron deficiency">. The reason I say possibly is that I would expect the lower portion of the leaf to green, rather than the tip (below).

i am not completely sure it is iron deficiency. because i lowered the amount of Iron from 1ppm~0.1ppm per week. is dtpa that much better a chelator than edta? especially in softwater tanks such as mine?

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

i am not completely sure it is iron deficiency.

It is only really iron (Fe) and manganese (Mn) that cause the lack of chlorophyll <"(chlorosis) in new leaves">, all the other options (nitrogen (N), potassium (K) & magnesium (Mg)) are mobile within the plant and deficiencies show in the old leaves, because the plant can shuffle them to the most efficient photosynthetic tissue.

This is also why iron deficiencies take a while to rectify (the plant has to grow new leaves), but you get a <"fairly instant greening"> when <"nitrogen etc"> have been deficient and become available.

because i lowered the amount of Iron from 1ppm~0.1ppm per week. is dtpa that much better a chelator than edta? especially in softwater tanks such as mine?

FEDTPA is <"a better chelator">, but in soft water either should do.

If your plants went chlorotic with 1ppm Fe from FeEDTA? Then none of that iron (from FeEDTA) was plant available.

Because Tonina comes from very soft, acid waters it will actually have <"mechanisms to limit iron uptake">, because iron, although an essential micro-nutrient, <"is toxic in large amounts">. This is one reason why these sorts of plant <"calcifuges"> are very prone to iron deficiencies, in a way that "calcicoles" hard water plants Vallisneria spp. etc aren't.

been about three days since dosing new micro

It will take a lot longer before you see any change with iron (Fe) because of the non-mobile nature of iron within the plant and because Tonina is a slow growing plant. I'm using a <"hybrid duckweed index"> approach at the moment where I add iron regularly, even when the <"Amazon Frogbit Limnobium laevigatum"> isn't obviously iron deficient.

cheers Darrel

 

[Happi]

i
i am not completely sure it is iron deficiency. because i lowered the amount of Iron from 1ppm~0.1ppm per week. is dtpa that much better a chelator than edta? especially in softwater tanks such as mine?

EDTA Iron is fine in soft water. the reason people still see Iron deficiency despite adding 1 ppm Fe is because they are focused on deficiency rather than considering toxicity and Nutrients Interaction, I already talked about this in some of the previous posts.

EDTA Fe is actually more rapidly available compared to DTPA Fe due to more prone to degradation and plant are probably better off breaking the iron from the EDTA than they would from DTPA or other stronger chelation as the plant will require more energy to do this work. either way they both are Fe+3 Iron and they will always require additional work for the plant to use this type of Iron. its probably best to Combine Fe+3 with Fe+2 for the best results even though Fe+3 will work just fine in most cases.

magnesium itself doesn't fix the Iron deficiency if the Iron is completely missing, but it helps absorb the Iron better.

""Magnesium is the central core of the chlorophyll molecule in plant tissue. Thus, if Mg is deficient, the shortage of chlorophyll results in poor and stunted plant growth. Magnesium also helps to activate specific enzyme systems.""

Role of Magnesium in Plant Culture | PRO-MIX Greenhouse Growing

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

EDTA Iron is fine in soft water. the reason people still see Iron deficiency despite adding 1 ppm Fe is because they are focused on deficiency rather than considering toxicity

I agree with this, but if this happened when @plantnoobdude was adding 1 ppm Fe via FeEDTA? None of that iron was plant available. I would be absolutely amazed if that isn't iron deficiency.



The reasons for the none availability of iron (Fe) are a slightly different question.

cheers Darrel

 

[Happi]

@dw1305
I guess the only way to find out is if he replace the DTPA Fe with EDTA Fe entirely and keep all the other Micro the same and dose the same ppm for Fe EDTA.

he is currently in full control of how and what he dose. so I encourage him to try the above at some point and see what happens.

 

[Happi]

I have been gradually reducing my water column dosing and its now 50% of the manfacturers dosage, a relatively economical 1ml a day which gives me

N 6.44ppm
P 2.1ppm
K 8.6ppm
Fe 0.25ppm (+0.2ppm EDDHA-Fe into substrate)
Mg 0.7ppm (+4ppm Epsom salt)

This wouldn't count as lean dosing, more like 'reduced dosing' , but hopefully there is a middle ground where most plants are happy and the A. Pedicatella leaves don't wrinkle and the stems turn red. 🙂

what source of N and K are you adding because numbers aren't matching up correctly if you are using KNO3. also, am guessing you are referring to N 6.44 as NO3 6.44 ppm?

 

[plantnoobdude]

what source of N and K are you adding because numbers aren't matching up correctly if you are using KNO3. also, am guessing you are referring to N 6.44 as NO3 6.44 ppm?

I think Erwin is using APT EI, Happi.