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Lean dosing pros and cons
- Thread starter Riverside Scaper
- Start date
Ooo this is interesting! What happened at the last picture?
that the aquatic plant can grow just with the water Colum dosing, also not to forget that nutrients does cause algae. also 1-3 ppm N was just too much for those guys to handle, the plant on the far left eventually was shooting like 2-3 feet long roots but it had no where to go.
Them's fightin' words around here hehe 😅
But lets not start up the old war again, this thread was going so much better after people stopped fighting about who was right and just started focusing on trying different things.
Wouldnt this picture pretty much be what growing stems in inert substrate is though?
Sometimes I float my Ammannia in the thicket of Bolbitis, and they do just as well as they do planted into my sand
haha yes lets put that algae topic in the corner for now. yep pretty much its like growing them in the inert substrate or floating them. even if you attached the stem with duct tape on the glass, it will continue to grow under the proper condition.
I will be starting injected CO2 soon and also aquiring some A. pedicellata "golden", which I see many are struggling with in EI. Im very interested to see how it will perform for me and it will be a good test subject I think. First EI and inert substrate, and then rich substrate and lean later on. Ideally I would try inert substrate and lean dosing between those two, but I think most of us can suspect how that will go, and Im not looking to bomb my tank completely
Rotala Wallichii
Low tech. No CO2, no liquid carbon. 16 litre tank with Aquazonic Spectra Planted.
12ppm N
3.9ppm P
13.6ppm K
0.92ppm Fe
(APT EI - 0.3ml daily into 16 litre tank)
I managed to turn it pink right at the top - thats a lot of light by the way 😎
But stem is green, unlike in high tech where it turns red.
Well this is flowgrow's database, is your question about this database specifically or plant databases in general?
I dont know the answer for sure, but I suspect it is a good mixture of the nurseries recommendations for growing the plants, the opinions of the people behind the specific database, and the perceived difficulty of the plant from the viewpoint of the general aquarist.
Edit: Keeping in mind that the plant growing skill of the average fishkeeper is quite low, at least based on what im seeing locally..
I dont know the answer for sure, but I suspect it is a good mixture of the nurseries recommendations for growing the plants, the opinions of the people behind the specific database, and the perceived difficulty of the plant from the viewpoint of the general aquarist.
Edit: Keeping in mind that the plant growing skill of the average fishkeeper is quite low, at least based on what im seeing locally..
there is 2 weeks between the 2 pictures, except i trimmed a bit. the growth was better in lean dosing
there is EI dosing :
and there is "lean dosing" which is:
5.9ppm NO3
0.31ppm PO4
3.9ppm K
0.39ppm Mg
25 ppm calcium (@ water change)
8 ppm magnesium (@ water change)
~ 0.08 ppm FE (EDTA + DTPA + HDDPA)
the palustris cuba grow well but the coloration faded out :
before :
after : the rotala in the back seems to be in way better in lean dosing, same with the pinnatifada
there is EI dosing :
and there is "lean dosing" which is:
5.9ppm NO3
0.31ppm PO4
3.9ppm K
0.39ppm Mg
25 ppm calcium (@ water change)
8 ppm magnesium (@ water change)
~ 0.08 ppm FE (EDTA + DTPA + HDDPA)
the palustris cuba grow well but the coloration faded out :
before :
after : the rotala in the back seems to be in way better in lean dosing, same with the pinnatifada
In Eminor's journal, he identifies the Rotala as H'ra which is a Rotundifolia variant. In my experience Rotundifolia and variants do not have an issue with EI and are pretty healthy in rich water column dosing. Rotundifolias are the weeds of the Rotala family.... they just grow everywhere, and in the case of H'ra that sometimes doesn't know how to grow straight, they literally grow in every direction 🙂
Nitrate limitation could improve colour but that is a separate issue from healthy growth.
plantnoobdude
Member
well all the pic links are broken,,... let me share the progress lol
much less stunting in wallichii, horribly stunted stems from EI are growing sideshoots.
macrandra issue is getting much better, full fat leaves. and much less stunting, maybe 1 in 20 stems is stunted, previously maybe on stems every 3-4 stems.
greening obvious in tiny tonina shoot.
f
whole group is getting much better colour with urea aswell, still a bit whitish on camera but better in person. turned down brightness a bit and looks to true to what i see.
cuba still stunting and has that cyano forming on tips. might just trim it to a stump and lt it regrow side shoots at this point.
another pic of macrandra looking fat and juicy
cuphea still making progress, though algae has gotten worse on old leaves, i think it will get better because new leaves look very healthy and algae does not seem to attack healthy leaves.
over all very good improvement for a couple days of new macro dosing. also keep in mind these pics are already one day old. the rotala wallichii is improving daily.
much less stunting in wallichii, horribly stunted stems from EI are growing sideshoots.
macrandra issue is getting much better, full fat leaves. and much less stunting, maybe 1 in 20 stems is stunted, previously maybe on stems every 3-4 stems.
greening obvious in tiny tonina shoot.
f
whole group is getting much better colour with urea aswell, still a bit whitish on camera but better in person. turned down brightness a bit and looks to true to what i see.
cuba still stunting and has that cyano forming on tips. might just trim it to a stump and lt it regrow side shoots at this point.
another pic of macrandra looking fat and juicy
cuphea still making progress, though algae has gotten worse on old leaves, i think it will get better because new leaves look very healthy and algae does not seem to attack healthy leaves.
over all very good improvement for a couple days of new macro dosing. also keep in mind these pics are already one day old. the rotala wallichii is improving daily.
plantnoobdude
Member
I mean it's not that complicated, 1 side says nh4 is ofcourse a plant nutrient and overdosing causes algae.
the other side says nh4 is a plant nutrient but it's not recommended to use it, stick to the recommended chemicals and overdosing will not be an issue (to an extent)
plantnoobdude
Member
one interesting I forgot to say with the above pictures. although stunting is reduced in those pictures. i actually REDUCED co2 since starting lean dosing. really proves that stunting is not always co2 triggered.
John q
Member
Not the best of updates unfortunately.
The last couple of days seem to have spawned a rather rapid onset of bba. Always had bits in the tank but this one is causing me enough concern to draw a halt to the latest experiments. I'm also seeing gsa appearing and some leaves seem to be abnormally curling.
It could well be the case that me yoyoing the ferts for the last 6 weeks is causing stress in the plants. Another potential culprit could be fluctuating co2 levels. I've certainly had 2 spikes in one of the tanks but the other tanks ph readings and dc colour have remained stable throughout this period, this tank runs a far higher bubble rate and has more surface agitation, so in my mind should be a bit more resilient to decreases in plant demand?
These are the parameters that the tanks been under for the last 9 days.
Out of my tap.
Ca 6.6ppm
Mg 1.18ppm
I add ~2ppm Ca & 0.9ppm Mg with the water change.
Weekly dosing is.
N03 8.8ppm
N 0.65ppm (from urea)
P04 1.19ppm
K 6ppm
Mg 0.4ppm
Fe Edta 0.4ppm & Fe dtpa 0.05
I've taken a few photos of the supposed issues, there not the best pics unfortunately and maybe what I'm seeing is normal to some folks.
Hygrophila difformis leaf is curling into itself, this is the worst leaf by far but other leaves of this plant (in both tanks) are showing signs of inner curl. Growth on this sp also minimal.
Blobitis leaf looks like it's unfurling, I've seen pictures of this to some degree but this curling seems to be affecting all the Blobitis in both tanks. I'm sure these leaves were straighter a few weeks ago.
Hygrophila polysperma growth has increased a bit but still relatively slow and new leaves appear small and slightly deformed (maybe hard to tell in this photo), you can see gsa and bba appearing on the leaf towards the bottom of the pic, this is something I've genuinely not seen on this plant before.
Hydrocotyle is showing gsa again, the back of this plant looks worse than the front.
Its not all bad news, ludwigia rubin seems to be loving these conditions.
So no idea what's gone on, all I know is my gut instinct is telling me to pause things and try to stabilise the tank before I commit to any further experiments.
Cheers for all the help upto now and all being well I'll be back in a couple of weeks for round 3 😁
The last couple of days seem to have spawned a rather rapid onset of bba. Always had bits in the tank but this one is causing me enough concern to draw a halt to the latest experiments. I'm also seeing gsa appearing and some leaves seem to be abnormally curling.
It could well be the case that me yoyoing the ferts for the last 6 weeks is causing stress in the plants. Another potential culprit could be fluctuating co2 levels. I've certainly had 2 spikes in one of the tanks but the other tanks ph readings and dc colour have remained stable throughout this period, this tank runs a far higher bubble rate and has more surface agitation, so in my mind should be a bit more resilient to decreases in plant demand?
These are the parameters that the tanks been under for the last 9 days.
Out of my tap.
Ca 6.6ppm
Mg 1.18ppm
I add ~2ppm Ca & 0.9ppm Mg with the water change.
Weekly dosing is.
N03 8.8ppm
N 0.65ppm (from urea)
P04 1.19ppm
K 6ppm
Mg 0.4ppm
Fe Edta 0.4ppm & Fe dtpa 0.05
I've taken a few photos of the supposed issues, there not the best pics unfortunately and maybe what I'm seeing is normal to some folks.
Hygrophila difformis leaf is curling into itself, this is the worst leaf by far but other leaves of this plant (in both tanks) are showing signs of inner curl. Growth on this sp also minimal.
Blobitis leaf looks like it's unfurling, I've seen pictures of this to some degree but this curling seems to be affecting all the Blobitis in both tanks. I'm sure these leaves were straighter a few weeks ago.
Hygrophila polysperma growth has increased a bit but still relatively slow and new leaves appear small and slightly deformed (maybe hard to tell in this photo), you can see gsa and bba appearing on the leaf towards the bottom of the pic, this is something I've genuinely not seen on this plant before.
Hydrocotyle is showing gsa again, the back of this plant looks worse than the front.
Its not all bad news, ludwigia rubin seems to be loving these conditions.
So no idea what's gone on, all I know is my gut instinct is telling me to pause things and try to stabilise the tank before I commit to any further experiments.
Cheers for all the help upto now and all being well I'll be back in a couple of weeks for round 3 😁
Attachments
Hi all,
Really neat updates - haven’t read for a while. Lots of pretty photos.
Want to share something (this thread is just a bunch of ideas and great conversations now - sorry OP):
A month ago the entire left side had Mg deficiency in the emerged growth. The yellow has now turned green: roots must have found the magnesium bank that the right hand side stumps had access too. Another facet - if we have deep deep substrate, with time I think many things can fix themselves.
Yes. … I pulled the plug on co2 - flow it irrelevant in this thing:
Spraybar is now pointing straight down and breaking the surface for maximum gas exchange - like a constant rain flow. Temperature fluctuates to 24 at night and 27 during day.
For roughly 6 months, daily water change 20% - tds never changed (automated) - with daily dosing.
Now — duck —- no water change still daily dosing. Running on a couple months. TDS not changing. Feeding like absolute crazy abundance beyond belief.
That was a digression on open mindedness I suppose.
Stocking in that tank:
Scarlet badis, betta, pea puffers, sparkling gourami, honey gourami, pearl gourami, German rams, apistos, shrimps, oto cats, bushy nose pleco, red eye tetra, black tetra, neon tetra, hillatream loach, kuhli loach, guppy, forktail rainbow, zebra danio
Lol … combinations that should lead to death - hey everything is thriving!!!
Back to dosing:
It seems that this thread spurred a lot of people to give less than EI a try. I think often we are feared into thinking plants need all those nutrients and if we don’t feed them, then the plant will become deficient. And that’s the wrong reason to dose EI. EI is hard mode. Let someone with a wet/dry trickle tower and 20x turnover low velocity return dose EI. Or someone with extremely hard water.
If you don’t fit the bill on the latter, cut the N by 3 and micro by 10 (via concentrated dosing solution not teaspoons to maintain ratio ranges) and keep the rest.
The next step is to leave the column lean and crank your light —— ahh!! Duck. 😂.
You see, we’ve seen the plant adapt to lower nutrients … why can it not adapt to moderate light amounts? The beauty is that you aren’t withholding energy if you crank the light so some plants will be like THANK YOU I can use all this energy - let me top up the demand from the substrate (and since my co2 is now in Excess since the column is lean and I’m not force fed, let me match it just right so I don’t become deficient!). These things are smart. If there is 15 co2 and they currently use 10 via light and nutrients etc, then you crank the light to allow maximum 20 but bottleneck the rest, the plant will top everything up to 15 and mod out the extra light by changing shape and or Color. They are absolutely genius. In many ways, more than us (we let emotions get in the way, plants are the ultimate bad@ss).
By doing this, you have co2 and K in the drivers seat and this is exactly what we want.
The next challenge: Crank your lights!
Will there still be a barn raising? 😂
Ok ok one more photo!!
I already posted socially accepted pretty ones so I’m allowed to post a natural biotope that resembles the Amazon now without losing street cred … right? 😊.
Really neat updates - haven’t read for a while. Lots of pretty photos.
Want to share something (this thread is just a bunch of ideas and great conversations now - sorry OP):
A month ago the entire left side had Mg deficiency in the emerged growth. The yellow has now turned green: roots must have found the magnesium bank that the right hand side stumps had access too. Another facet - if we have deep deep substrate, with time I think many things can fix themselves.
Yes. … I pulled the plug on co2 - flow it irrelevant in this thing:
Spraybar is now pointing straight down and breaking the surface for maximum gas exchange - like a constant rain flow. Temperature fluctuates to 24 at night and 27 during day.
For roughly 6 months, daily water change 20% - tds never changed (automated) - with daily dosing.
Now — duck —- no water change still daily dosing. Running on a couple months. TDS not changing. Feeding like absolute crazy abundance beyond belief.
That was a digression on open mindedness I suppose.
Stocking in that tank:
Scarlet badis, betta, pea puffers, sparkling gourami, honey gourami, pearl gourami, German rams, apistos, shrimps, oto cats, bushy nose pleco, red eye tetra, black tetra, neon tetra, hillatream loach, kuhli loach, guppy, forktail rainbow, zebra danio
Lol … combinations that should lead to death - hey everything is thriving!!!
Back to dosing:
It seems that this thread spurred a lot of people to give less than EI a try. I think often we are feared into thinking plants need all those nutrients and if we don’t feed them, then the plant will become deficient. And that’s the wrong reason to dose EI. EI is hard mode. Let someone with a wet/dry trickle tower and 20x turnover low velocity return dose EI. Or someone with extremely hard water.
If you don’t fit the bill on the latter, cut the N by 3 and micro by 10 (via concentrated dosing solution not teaspoons to maintain ratio ranges) and keep the rest.
The next step is to leave the column lean and crank your light —— ahh!! Duck. 😂.
You see, we’ve seen the plant adapt to lower nutrients … why can it not adapt to moderate light amounts? The beauty is that you aren’t withholding energy if you crank the light so some plants will be like THANK YOU I can use all this energy - let me top up the demand from the substrate (and since my co2 is now in Excess since the column is lean and I’m not force fed, let me match it just right so I don’t become deficient!). These things are smart. If there is 15 co2 and they currently use 10 via light and nutrients etc, then you crank the light to allow maximum 20 but bottleneck the rest, the plant will top everything up to 15 and mod out the extra light by changing shape and or Color. They are absolutely genius. In many ways, more than us (we let emotions get in the way, plants are the ultimate bad@ss).
By doing this, you have co2 and K in the drivers seat and this is exactly what we want.
The next challenge: Crank your lights!
Will there still be a barn raising? 😂
Ok ok one more photo!!
I already posted socially accepted pretty ones so I’m allowed to post a natural biotope that resembles the Amazon now without losing street cred … right? 😊.
Last edited:
plantnoobdude
Member
urea dosing benefits,
under previous dosing
pic from yesterday
under previous dosing
pic from yesterday
plantnoobdude
Member
are you using N and P? or no3 and Po4
sorry should be 12ppm NO3 , 3.9ppm PO4 rather than N, P. Using APT EI.
