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Just Stop Oil Protesters

Hi all,
In short: peer review isn't perfect. It does (on the whole) work well. The alternatives are pretty dire ....
Which, I think, is what this thread <"probably shows">.
I can see some people making points, but I personally accept climate breakdown as real, and, while I can see there are different potential solutions, I don't feel a need to debate with anyone who doesn't accept the science. ..... My general feeling is that on some subjects people rarely change one another's minds, they talk at cross purposes, and I don't feel I'm an expert or that I need to have strong opinions here
Point taken again, I'm always going to "rise to the bait" even when I should know that silence might be a better option. I'm reminded of an interview with <"Richard Dawkins"> where it was suggested that "debating" with creationists did more harm than good, by giving them the oxygen of publicity - <"Creationism, Faith, and Legitimizing Bad Ideas | Richard Dawkins Foundation for Reason and Science">.
That's my politics, to try and do things that help, and to meet real people and learn
and what finer aim could you have in life?
However, I understand that if you quote from an unknown and dangerously inaccurate Internet source on a public policy issue you could picked up by Trump for a major government role. Swigging bleach can apparently cure covid, fluoride in water is a Marxist plot,....
I'm going to predict that <"Frederick Douglass"> may prove right. I'll be honest, I'm still in a state of shock, possibly because <"of the silo that I inhabit">.

learning-is-a-calamity-frederick-douglass-8-11-24-jpg.212086


cheers Darrel
 
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The science around global warming is far from “settled”, despite claims to the contrary from the legacy media, climate change institutions such as the IPCC, and many scientists working in academia. It’s not as black and white as, “you either believe or you don’t”. It's more nuanced than that.

For example, some scientists question the accuracy of the IPCC climate projections. Others argue that global warming is primarily caused by natural processes. Alternatively, there are those that believe the cause is unknown, or that it’s not possible to separate natural processes from anthropogenic ones with any degree of significance. And other scientist believe in anthropogenic warming but argue it’ll have few negative effects.

There are more than a few papers dating up to around the 1990s which are skeptical in one way or another, regarding the anthropogenic origin of global warming and climate change. Soon after skeptics papers largely disappear from peer reviewed literature, and the anthropogenic origin of global warming paradigm becomes entrenched in dogma. Those scientist not willing to accept the paradigm loose their jobs or fall in to line; a phenomena known as herding. Others retire.

Ever wondered why Professor David Bellamy suddenly disappeared from our TV screens. He was a skeptic that refused to tow the line. I find his views strangely prophetic. The consequences of the theory of anthropogenic global warming have unprecedented power to influence policy and therefore our entire lives, and most importantly our freedoms and liberty.

I find this particularly startling since models used to predict changes in climate, are not without limitations and depend on the operator to determine which variables are relevant. Each choice will present a different outcome; not necessarily GIGO, but I’m sure that’s a factor.

Consequently, confirmation bias and subsequent circular reasoning, and scientific activism reinforcing established dogma, will always be a concern for me.

The paper I posted above is by Jamal Munshi, PhD, a credentialed scientist and Professor Emeritus at Sonoma State University, part of the California State university system. For those who don’t know, you don’t become an Emeritus professor without being an esteemed member of an academic community or institution. He also argues that there is no evidence to suggest global warming is a consequence of anthropogenic emissions, see separate post above.

Anyway, more recently there have been peer reviewed papers arguing that climate models are not yet sophisticated enough to accurately predict the outcome of global warming, nor sophisticated enough to determine its exact cause. I’ve posted two very recent examples, 2023 and 2024, below.


Part of the conclusion to the above paper.
“But before taking action to address global warming and reduce the planet's average temperature, one must make sure that anthropogenic influences contribute greatly to global warming so that these measures do not rock the pendulum of climate change toward a new ice age.”

And

The Detection and Attribution of Northern Hemisphere Land Surface Warming (1850–2018) in Terms of Human and Natural Factors: Challenges of Inadequate Data

Part of the abstract.
“…the scientific community is not yet in a position to confidently establish whether the warming since 1850 is mostly human-caused, mostly natural, or some combination.”

I started out wholeheartedly believing in the anthropogenic origin of global warming, I completed my masters in Environmental Management during the Rio Earth Summit, which was a hot topic of research, and began my PhD soon afterward. But the more I read the more it didn’t make sense to me.

I’ve now joined a growing number of skeptics, which includes at least two very recent Nobel laureates, John Clauser and William Nordhaus. I now believe that it’s become more of a political agenda than an environmental one.
 
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Hi all,
I'm always going to "rise to the bait" even when I should know that silence might be a better option
Done it again, but this really is my last one.
The paper I posted above is by Jamal Munshi, PhD, a credentialed scientist and Professor Emeritus at Sonoma State University, part of the California State university system. For those who don’t know, you don’t become an Emeritus professor without being an esteemed member of an academic community or institution. He also argues that there is no evidence to suggest global warming is a consequence of anthropogenic emissions,
Get away with you. He is a right wing economic libertarian, who makes the flimsiest attempt to claim that this is "science" - Have a look a the content of <"Climate Denialism">.

You are entitled to your opinion, but there are no alternative facts.
The science around global warming is far from “settled”, despite claims to the contrary from the legacy media, climate change institutions such as the IPCC, and many scientists working in academia. It’s not as black and white as, “you either believe or you don’t”. It's more nuanced than that.
From <"Scientific consensus on climate change - Wikipedia">
..... In 2021, Krista Myers led a paper which surveyed 2780 Earth scientists. Depending on expertise, between 91% (all scientists) to 100% (climate scientists with high levels of expertise, 20+ papers published) agreed human activity is causing climate change. Among the total group of climate scientists, 98.7% agreed. The agreement was lowest among scientists who chose Economic Geology as one of their fields of research (84%).[4]

Also in 2021, a team led by Mark Lynas had found 80,000 climate-related studies published between 2012 and 2020, and chose to analyse a random subset of 3000. Four of these were skeptical of the human cause of climate change, 845 were endorsing the human cause perspective at different levels, and 1869 were indifferent to the question. The authors estimated the proportion of papers not skeptical of the human cause as 99.85% (95% confidence limit 99.62%–99.96%) ......
You might as well argue that "the World is flat", it is about as coherent as an argument.
For those who don’t know, you don’t become an Emeritus professor without being an esteemed member of an academic community or institution.
You will find plenty of people in the USA who are <"both scientists"> and <"Young Age Creationists">, but being "scientists" doesn't make them any less deluded, it just makes you question the rest of their science - <"Biological Sciences, Lehigh University">.
....... The department faculty, then, are unequivocal in their support of evolutionary theory, which has its roots in the seminal work of Charles Darwin and has been supported by findings accumulated over 140 years. The sole dissenter from this position, Prof. Michael Behe, is a well-known proponent of "intelligent design." While we respect Prof. Behe's right to express his views, they are his alone and are in no way endorsed by the department. It is our collective position that intelligent design has no basis in science, has not been tested experimentally, and should not be regarded as scientific.......

cheers Darrel
 
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Like I've tried to reason above, I don't think it's as black and white as that Darrel. Science doesn't exist in a vacuum and is just as vulnerable to external influences, vested interest, hidden agendas, and especially politics, as with any other endeavour.

The 97% consensus between climate scientists perhaps isn't as accurate as it appears. There have been many rebuttals, too many to list, but this one chosen at random pretty much sums up the alternative argument.

Anyway, I prefer the alternative statistic, 97% of scientist agree with whoever is funding them.

Referring to Wikipedia to support an argument perhaps isn't the best strategy

Get away with you. He is a right wing economic libertarian
Must admit I wasn't aware of his political leanings. And really what is so bad about being right wing? Isn't it a valid part of the political spectrum and our democracy? It appears to be overused as a pejorative label for anyone whose views do not align with the left, particularly by neo-marxists and the woke. But there again you've kind of made my point for me, politics pervades everything it seems.

You might as well argue that "the World is flat", it is about as coherent as an argument.
Or perhaps argue that God exists. Or that there is absolutely no ideological bias in climate research
 
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Hi all,
I don't think it's as black and white as that Darrel.
But how black and white does it have to be? We are in the <"realms of probability here">, this isn't the speed of light.
The 97% consensus between climate scientists perhaps isn't as accurate as it appears.
After saying Wikipedia is biased, you then quote the <"Adam Smith"> and <"Fraser Institutes">? You honestly couldn't make it up.
Must admit I wasn't aware of his political leanings, but I'm not sure what it has to do with anything anyway.
But there again you've kind of made my point for me, politics pervades everything it seems.
Because his "research" has nothing to do with science, or the truth, it is entirely to do with his political beliefs.
particularly by neo-marxists and the woke.
I think you should consider, very carefully, what you have just written.
And really what is so bad about being right wing? It appears to be overused as a pejorative label
I was going to say wait for four more years of Trump, but I think we both remember the 1970's? So you can tell me how well has 50 years of economic libertarianism done for the average person in the UK (or USA)?

cheers Darrel
 
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I can absolutely see where you're coming from Darrel and totally respect your arguments. They were once very similar to those of my own.
But it's apparent that our views on global warming and apparently politics diverge somewhat. And that's okay, it'd be a dull world if all agreed, all the time.
 
News just in! From August 14, 1912 and of course there has been ample scientific investigation since, not least from some of the prime agents of the climate crisis (see big oil's memos from the 1950s) who have been less than forthcoming with their findings. Casting climate change as some early C21 leftist ideological smear is simply daft, it would be a pretty long run view of taking down capitalism given the issue was identified a few decades after the death of Marx and before the Russian Revolution. As The Conversation piece says: 'The science is beyond doubt. While the first Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change report in 1990 stated global warming “could be largely due to natural variability”, the latest from 2021 states humans have “unequivocally […] warmed the atmosphere, ocean and land”.

Also, the idea that we can't act because our computer simulations are not yet sophisticated enough to model the impacts reminds me of that great film Synechoche New York.
 
This is my basic approach to the subject - If your species extracts hundreds of billions of tonnes of carbon compounds that took hundreds of millions of years to accumulate underground, dig it all up within the space of a couple of centuries, convert it to CO2 and pump it directly into the atmosphere.... why on earth would you expect it to not have a serious effect on the climate and the delicate balance of nature?

The powerful backers that support climate change denial propaganda know full well that they are promoting lies (same as the tobacco industry downplaying the cancer risk for decades and the auto industry trying to bury the catalytic converter in the 1950's), it is just an economic decision made by super-rich people with vested interests. What surprises me is that seemingly intelligent people with no vested interests buy into the delulu.... I guess that is the power of right wing leaning media....
 
Darrel @dw1305 and @Tim Harrison, I remember a Plato quote; I am paraphrasing here, but it goes something like this; In order to argue you will have to be able to present your opponents argument to his/her's satisfaction. While I agree with Darrel on the fundamentals here, I do think Tim raises some good points as well - the line between politics and science is indeed very blurred on this topic, where it shouldn't be. but we would be fools to ignore the basic facts - the facts that everyone agrees upon (including prominent skeptics such as Bjorn Lomborg among others) - the steep relative increase in atmospheric CO2 content, coinciding with heating of the oceans, increase in global temperature, increase in disruptive weather patterns, melting of the major glaciers / ice caps, disappearing of species (insects) vital to the food chain etc. If I would be a climate skeptic (I'm not!) I think I would consider Pascal's wager on this one.

Cheers,
Michael
 
Hi all,
..... the line between politics and science is indeed very blurred on this topic,.......
But that is the whole point, it honestly isn't. I understand it is more difficult to make objective judgements in an environment like the present day USA, but there isn't any politics involved, it is <"just truth and lies">.
(including prominent skeptics such as Bjorn Lomborg among others) -
But he is <"beyond discredited">. To continue with <"Pascal">, it is like quoting the <"centrality of the Earth in the Cosmos"> after Copernicus.
the steep relative increase in atmospheric CO2 content, coinciding with heating of the oceans, increase in global temperature, increase in disruptive weather patterns, melting of the major glaciers / ice caps,
If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it is a duck.

330px-20200324_Global_average_temperature_-_NASA-GISS_HadCrut_NOAA_Japan_BerkeleyE.svg.png

RCraig09 - Own work <"Scientific consensus on climate change - Wikipedia">
disappearing of species (insects) vital to the food chain etc.
Personally I think we should spend a lot more time talking about the <"6th Mass Extinction">. I understand that is tangentially linked to global climatic change, but it is happening on a much quicker time scale.

Cheers Darrel
 
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I tend to stay away from these discussions and you are all about to understand why?

Now when i write this i truly don't mean it but for the average person does climate change actually matter or change some of the things that we should be thinking about anyway. Pretend it doesn't exist (which is easier for some of us), does that mean that eating less meat, exercising more rather than using a car or growing our own food, isn't beneficial. We get better health, less risk of some really nasty diseases and a reduced ingestion of pesticides.
The reduction in car journeys to populated areas also helps with health, Beijing is so polluted even Chinese scientists describe it as almost uninhabitable.

There are many other aspects that we can simply change to improve our own life or save money, but i'll only add nature because selfishly i think its the most important. I love forests, marshland, moorland.......... and their ability to store carbon is a secondary benefit. I think, like many of us that without a diverse flora and fauna, our lives would be seriously lacking.

For some reason these topics always get heated and division wins. I truly don't think my life would be much different even if the climate wasn't rapidly changing. The problem is we live in a bonkers world of politics above common sense, where cash is king, the kind of world where its cheaper to ship Scottish salmon to China, be filleted and shipped back for sale. Individually we can do everything in our power but not everyone is pulling their weight or considering how to improve their own life.
 
In short: peer review isn't perfect. It does (on the whole) work well.
Problem is there's multiple peer reviewed studies demonstrating that it doesn't. This is why as a general rule I think it's preferable to engage with the information and arguments being presented rather than just looking for some seal of authority that validates them or not.
That said, there's absolutely nothing wrong with people specifically choosing to let people who are better equipped do their thinking for them. In some cases I would encourage it.
 
But that is the whole point, it honestly isn't. I understand it is more difficult to make objective judgements in an environment like the present day USA, but there isn't any politics involved, it is just truth and lies.
I'm not as certain about this. There has been a degree of ideological capture in some educational institutions in the US that I sincerely believe is sufficient to significantly bias academic output and even "peer" review. It's not evenly distributed across institutions or even different academic fields but it's real and I think the politicisation of science is a real and growing problem.
I have also met qualified scientists who appear to genuinely believe that human activity isn't the driving force behind the climate changes that we have observed so far. They may well be wrong, even obviously wrong from some perspectives, but I don't believe they are lying per se or even being consciously misleading in response to some perverse incentive. I do believe them when they say that's what they believe based on the information available to them.
 
I'm reminded of an interview with <"Richard Dawkins"> where it was suggested that "debating" with creationists did more harm than good, by giving them the oxygen of publicity - <"Creationism, Faith, and Legitimizing Bad Ideas | Richard Dawkins Foundation for Reason and Science">.
Although I see Richards point here, and he correctly identifies that the visibility of flat earth debates HAS caused the belief in a flat earth to surge, I very strongly disagree.
I think that there's almost nothing that should ever be considered fully settled and beyond debate, especially in the modern connected world where the legacy media has lost absolutely all authority, and there was inadevertantly a very, very good example of why this is the case recently on a piers morgan show. It's probably too controversial to go into details on the forum but essentially what I have witnessed is that everything eventually comes around again, if you just declare something absolutely settled and refuse to allow that it be robustly debated even at the risk of causing offense then when the arguments eventually and inveitably do come round again then most people will be woefully unequipped to effectively argue against and refute it. This has the potential to be very dangerous.
There are very smart people who can make compelling arguments for absolutely abominable ideas and people must be equipped to handle that. it should be very, very obvious to everyone at this point that "but that person is bad!" is no longer sufficient to stop people listening to what they might have to say and doesn't necessarily even mean they are wrong.
People should be made to debate in school. People should be made to debate in University. People should debate at pubs and bus stops. People should be made to defend the position opposite to what they actually believe and attack what they assume to be true. When you get a spam phone call you should start a debate about with them about climate change. When you go to a drive through you should debate them about seed oils vs. animal fats through the intercom. You should bring up the most polarising and contentious subject possible at christmas.

Flat earth debates are something absolutely everyone should engage with for multiple reasons. Mostly because in doing so you will realise that there are three types of flat earther 1. People who fully understand that the earth isn't flat but are grifting 2. People who at some point probably came to realise that it's not flat but just can't admit they were wrong and don't want to lose the sense of community created by belonging to a minority who are "in the know/in on the secret" and standing in opposition to everyone else, and finally the most important - number 3.
Number 3s are often well intentioned people who genuinely totally lack the capacity to understand why the earth isn't flat and are incapable of engaging with or understanding the arguments and experiments that demonstrate it's not. People should really realise that someone can be fully functional in society, hold a job, argue about politics and do all manner of normal things while absolutely lacking the intellectual capacity to understand why the earth isn't flat. I don't watch these people in order to feel superior but to remind myself every single time that there are people in the world who are as much smarter than me as I am than a committed flat earther and that just as there is for those flat earthers, somewhere I (and all of us) have a hard intellectual ceiling that we will never be able to break through. There are things we are all as wrong about, and as incapable of understanding why we are wrong about them, as the flat earth. For everyone. All of us. And it does good to remind yourself of it.
You can also begin to recognise categories 1, 2 and 3 in a range of different subjects and the tells are often similar regardless of what's being debated.
 
But that is the whole point, it honestly isn't. I understand it is more difficult to make objective judgements in an environment like the present day USA, but there isn't any politics involved, it is just truth and lies.
The conversation on climate is definitely highly politicized in the US - not really so much among scientist or about the hard science as many Europeans appear to believe (not all of us here in the US are backwards 😉 ), but specifically what to do about it. On the left (where I belong politically - sort of center left) you have solid science based arguments why we should do something about it that actually gets very broad support, but the conversation very quickly deteriorates into a massive disconnect, intertwined with all sorts of unrelated issues (see Green New Deal as an example) and on who is going to pay a disproportionate price (the poor and underprivileged in this case) for doing something about it and how, and that's all politics. The Ivory Tower thinking (predominantly by the agenda-driving far left) on this and many other topics is why the US election a couple of weeks ago sadly went the way it did. The left allowed the good (i.e. progress) to be the enemy of some ideal the majority just didn't buy into. Instead we are going to get regress and reversals on climate initiatives 🙁 Being an uncompromising purist is fine - thats a choice - just don't expect to win elections and influence seems to be the lesson.

Cheers,
Michael
 
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A simple point, but when we discuss science and say that X, Y, or Z scientist doesn't agree with scientists A-W, well, of course. But if we have a room of A-Z scientists then the consensus is strongly that climate breakdown exists, and strongly that the issue is urgent, and strongly that there are solutions. Of course, science will always depend on a few outliers, like Lovelock as an example, to make a leap beyond consensus, but the process that follows is one of research and a consolidation of knowledge. This process has been happening for decades now, which makes it infinitely likely that the consensus that climate breakdown is real is correct. In the same way no doubt people went on believing the earth was flat after the first scientist proved it wasn't, but over time other scientists agreed, and the consensus emerged. The issue of lack of progress on climate is not about science, it's about inertia caused by the wealthy and invested interests. In the pandemic it was only science that stopped millions more people dying, but it can't be said we followed the science enough. Society is slow, and more than we admit that is because science is overshadowed by power and what, to simplify, can be called vested interests. In recent memory we all know incontrovertibly that science saved millions of people. Scientists A-W are now suggesting we save billions, except for scientists X, Y and Z, and it turns out that X and y are funded by right wingers, oil interests, etc, and Z, well, he always did like to be different. Maybe Z will find a new angle, but I doubt he will prove climate breakdown is not real.
 
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It's a bit unhelpful to pigeon hole far right,or far left in climate change. Trump got in because, @MichaelJ maybe qualify it better, as l understand it he took the swing states which includes a lot of Democrats who didn't care about criminal records, and put global warming to one side. but focused on the rusting factory which once employed them and others.
 
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