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Just Stop Oil Protesters
- Thread starter PARAGUAY
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simon_the_plant_nerd
Member
There is a lot of news articles about wind developments harming bird populations and while it is true, birds have collided with wind turbines and (may) have been displaced or lost habitat directly, it doesn’t really give a full picture.
The RSPB say that “climate change is the greatest long-term threat to nature and people” and that “climate change poses the single biggest threat to birds and other wildlife.”
They recognise the significance of wind farms in the transition to net-zero but also the impact of poorly planned and constructed wind farms. Generally, in Scotland bird collisions with wind farms are occasional but relatively rare events. A condition of planning permission for wind turbine sites normally includes surveying locations to avoid protected sites for birds, nest sites and other areas of high flight activity.
They have notably criticised developments which have been given permission and may cause harm to bird populations.
It is, in my opinion, a responsible approach based on balance.
EDIT: I believe this is also the view of NatureScot. I appreciate I haven’t quoted sources here. I’m on mobile and not so easy. Should you want sources, I’ll do it tomorrow when I’m at the laptop.
EDIT2: While I wasn’t going to draw comparisons too much in this as we can all appreciate that pretty much every construction project in Scotland has impacted nature in some way, it’s interesting reading to look at the RSPB BirdCrime analysis from last month. It’s disheartening to see that endangered birds are illegally poisoned, trapped or shot throughout the UK with no signs of the problem slowing down or stopping based on 15 years of data.
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Tim Harrison
Member
It takes a great deal of oil to make the petrochemicals needed to manufacture, and transport the components to make wind turbines and to keep them lubricated throughout their lifespan. They have a lifespan of around 20 years and will barely compensate for the CO2 and damaging emissions given off during their manufacture and installation.
Especially since the line between their potential energy yield and actual yield is often blurred or glossed over. In other words they only operate at their optimum efficiency some of the time. And typically operate at only around 25% of their theoretical maximum, maybe around 45% offshore, for the duration of their lifespan.
And then there's the problem of disposing of them at the end of that lifespan. It's claimed that many of the components are recyclable. But recycling is way down the waste management hierarchy after "Prevent, Reduce, and Reuse". And recycling also takes energy, usually in the form of fossil or hydrocarbon fuels. The turbines themselves present another problem and will inevitably end up in landfill.
Green energy is not environmentally friendly.
Check out another article I posted earlier in the conversation. Or not, as is obviously the case.
Green energy ain’t so green. Compared to oil and gas it’s a dilute source of energy, and therefore has a greater impact on the environment.
I think what is often lacking in our understanding of these issues is wholistic joined up thinking. Or, it's easy to take a myopic view and not really consider the universal picture. And I also think it's convenient and easier to accept what were told on face value without thinking critically. I always made a point of telling my students to question everything, especially if it's a majority view.
"Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to reform (or pause and reflect)."
Mark Twain
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PARAGUAY
Member
Not sure if climate change and global warming was a thing when Jacques Cousteau warned of how we had to treat the seas and oceans with respect because back in the 70s and 80s .Because goverments and commercial operators were spending billions exploiting them for oil, minerals and the emergence of the factory ship which could catch the fish and prepare and can them before returning to shipyards putting local fishermen all over the globe redundant as fish stocks dwindled. There is Heiko Bleher exploring habitats ,l remember his recreation aquarium of a biotope were he visited ,when asked about it said he thought he would do it because l doubt the habitat will be in existence in a couple of years
Anyone whose seen it Sir David Attenboroughs narration of Penguins returning to breed where they had bred for centuries from a few thousand to less than a hundred ,were there was snow it's now just rain and many just perished in the rain
Anyone whose seen it Sir David Attenboroughs narration of Penguins returning to breed where they had bred for centuries from a few thousand to less than a hundred ,were there was snow it's now just rain and many just perished in the rain
Maf 2500
Member
Yes indeed, I think you just described the typical mindset of a climate change denier....
simon_the_plant_nerd
Member
This is demonstrably false. The specific branch of environmental research is called “life cycle assessment” and while it is difficult to fully determine the impact decommissioning may have (too many unknowns when determining end of life), it is typically recognised that the lifecycle of a wind turbine will have substantially lower co2 outputs per MWh than most legacy energy generation sources.
That said, the solution isn’t to simply construct lots of wind farms. Wind shall play a part in a diversified portfolio of energy generation and storage to reach net zero targets. Other parts of that portfolio may be nuclear or gas, grid scale batteries and suitable infrastructure for the construction, maintenance and decommissioning.
And yes, oil is required in the production of wind farms, as it is required in the manufacturing of just about everything.
Tim Harrison
Member
You're right in some respects @simon_the_plant_nerd. But not all externalities are always taken in to account when calculating the cost of green energy and specifically wind turbines. Either way it’s important to acknowledge that green energy is not a panacea for climate change. And you quite rightly mention diversification of the energy generation portfolio. As unpopular as it it is, I think nuclear energy will have a huge role to play going forward.
www.mdpi.com
The Cost of Wind: Negative Economic Effects of Global Wind Energy Development
This paper provides a structured literature review of the negative economic effects associated with the development of wind energy and synthesized the evidence at an abstract level. We then developed an analytical framework to systematically review economic issues such as volatility, electricity...
www.mdpi.com
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simon_the_plant_nerd
Member
I’m not involved in the economics of energy transition. I leave that for people much more qualified than me in that field. That’s why I didn’t mention it.You're right in some respects @simon_the_plant_nerd. But not all externalities are always taken in to account when calculating the cost of green energy and specifically wind turbines. Either way it’s important to acknowledge that green energy is not a panacea for climate change. And you quite rightly mention diversification of energy portfolio. As unpopular as it it is, I think nuclear energy will have a huge role to play going forward.
The Cost of Wind: Negative Economic Effects of Global Wind Energy Development
This paper provides a structured literature review of the negative economic effects associated with the development of wind energy and synthesized the evidence at an abstract level. We then developed an analytical framework to systematically review economic issues such as volatility, electricity...
I only addressed the fallacy in your post regarding the “damaging emissions given off during their manufacturing and installation”. Considering a full lifecycle analysis of wind turbines purely on the environmental impact compared with a coal fired power plant for example, it has a substantially lower carbon emissions per MWh generated.
The infrastructure and the technology are still young so if I were to speculate, it’s more expensive per MWh than a coal plant but like I said, not my area.
Tim Harrison
Member
Thanks Simon. I've read that, and i know most the CO2 emissions are supposedly front loaded. But I'm not sure it takes in to account all the operations involved in constructing, erecting and maintaining a wind turbine. That is mining and refining the necessary minerals, transport, construction, infrastructure, erection, maintenance and decommissioning. And is that calculation based on the theoretical maximum energy output?
