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Consistency Deficiency

Hi all,
.......would be better to hear what @dw1305 thinks it is instead of continuing to harass the poor staff)
You should have continued harassing the garden centre staff, but I think @ScareCrow is correct with Didymochlaena truncatula. I'm not sure about the other one, I don't think it is Pellaea rotundifolia, that has a thin dark stipe.

cheers Darrel
 
Some gratuitous noodle pics for @shangman and @KirstyF ;)

Ahhhh…..thank you for the noodle fix. 😍

Re, the house plants, yeah, I think away from the window would be best….unless you especially like them crispy 😳……and remember these are not iddy biddy mosses and you can’t squeeze 35 of them in your tank……even with @shangman ‘s help!! 😂
 
I mentioned a bit over a week ago that I saw a shrimp with a few Scutariella parasites on it.
Shortly after I dosed the tank with a new medication, Sera Tremazol.
Before I have used Esha gdex and ndx (stupid confusing names in my opinion but thats beside the point). The Esha medications contain Praziquantel and Levamisole respectively.
Sera Tremazol is another Praziquantel medication, so I wasnt entirely sure if it would make a difference when I had already tried this active ingredient before without great results.
However, right after the first dose the parasites disappeared, and have not reappeared for over a week, much unlike the Esha treatments.
It would appear that Tremazol may be a more effective medication against Scutariella than gdex.
I did another treatment a bit over a week later, late this saturday, in hopes of really getting rid of this annoying problem once and for all.
The instructions for Tremazol state that one must perform a large waterchange 8 hours after treatment, but I forgot to fill the water barrel on saturday and thus did not get the regular sunday water change done. This morning (monday) I woke up to a tank with a cloudy tinge and a surface film. It appears the large water change shortly after treatment is truly needed and that they werent messing around when they wrote it. I had an important appointment to go to, but I managed to do the water change very quickly and turned on the skimmer to get rid of the surface film. I wasnt keen to run the CO2 with this film affecting gaseous exchange, so I left the CO2 off and therefore also the lights.

Now im back from the appointment and the film has been cleared up, although the water is still a bit cloudy.
I suppose the medication and/or the solvent used (Praziquantel is poorly soluble in water), causes a small bacterial bloom or something like that if left too long in the tank.
I decided to turn the CO2 and lights on now, because I think actively growing plants and more oxygen will make a big difference in getting over this small roadbump in tank stability.
I wasnt comfortable running the CO2 unsupervised with that surface film, but having cleared most of it and being home and able to monitor it makes a difference.

I will probably repeat the treatment next weekend, but this time I know, there is no delaying that waterchange ;)
 
Day after and water is nice and super clear again, no signs of a surface film either :thumbup:

Figured I should do a photo update of the plant growth, as this marks the end of trying 0.5 Fe + traces dosing to try to fix the chlorosis issue.
It definitely didnt work, and going higher than full EI seems like the wrong direction to go in to try to fix the issue.
On the menu for this week is nothing actually, @Happi suggested letting the tank run for one week with no micros.
Im not entirely sure what the purpose for it is, maybe to let the plants clear some of the stored traces they may have taken in, giving us more of a clean slate next week?
I dont think its going to cause death and devastation so why not.
After that I will start out pretty low, final amount still to be decided but my latest thinking was something like 0.06 Fe weekly just to see what will happen, but with a different ratio of the other traces that I think might be beneficial.
It would be swell if that works right out of the gate, but usually life isnt entirely that simple so I expect to have to tweak a little bit around on total dose and ratios until I find something that works for my specific water.
I still have no clear idea why I am having this issue and why not more people are having the same sort of troubles. Maybe that my tap water is fairly soft and pretty clear of anything has something to do with it. I remember the time I straight up melted my population of floating plants and almost killed my fish using a copper based snail medication, while the majority of the forum use this medication without any problems. That most members on the forum are UK based and the parameters of most UK tap water being quite different to mine is something I keep in mind. It might also have nothing to do with that, who knows.

Onto the more interesting part, pictures :thumbup:
It really is true what they say, about plant growth with CO2. Even when plant growth is bad, its still pretty damn good as long as the plants have access to their fix of carbon.
So chlorosis or not, most of the plants are developing pretty nicely and I am enjoying taking pictures of them (even though they are only in focus 1/5 of the time :angelic:).

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Rotala OJ is quickly becoming a favorite of mine, the color when it gets close to the light is lovely. This second pic is a replanted top. For some extra fun, ask me again in a year or two what I think about rotalas and their growth rates :thumbup:

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The rotalas in the little pot were evicted because they were doing too well. My two least sh*tty Pantanal stems are now living here. They are very small and stunt easily. A shoot of Golden has moved in to be their new friend.

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Even more of the strange symptoms on the Stargrass. It almost makes me wonder if its not a iron issue but another trace. Patches and banding and showing up in patterns I wouldnt normally think of as iron deficiency/issue.

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Ludwigia sp. Marilia looks best in a thick group, and its really loving the brighter spot. If anyone gets this plant, which I highly recommend as it is quite unique, definitely put it in your brightest spot.
Actually, now that I think of it, the leaf shedding has decreased a lot after I moved it here..

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Big Cuba and sidekick is doing pretty well despite the chlorosis.

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Super Red could probably have even better color, but man the light increase is really doing it for this plant, everything else seems to be secondary.

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The rest of the Cuba is bulking up, cant wait to trim off the old growth on these, just need a bit more time.

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Had a big cleanup of the Golden, from my limited experience 3 stems with good flow have much better odds than 30 puny miserable shoots in a tight group. Felt counterintuitive throwing away much of the plant I want more of, but quality growth is the goal now. If I get a few stems to thrive then I can propagate from there. The Ammannia crassicaulis next to it is doing almost equally as badly, which I find quite impressive. I was growing this plant in pretty lovely form at times in low tech, but so far have not been able to in high tech. Definitely had its ugly twisted periods in low tech too though. Its time in high tech so far hasnt been the most stable, so I cant really blame it. I am trying to recover from my acute collectoritis, and upon looking over the plants I have and the plants I definitely want, it seems I might be getting rid of A. crassicaulis in the long run. Theres just a lot of orange plants in the works. Should I keep one stem or not? They would be really easy to get again.. Let me know what you think.

Pogostemon helferi and M. Guyana is getting ruthlessly hacked back on a regular basis, mostly to keep their relative happiness from blocking off the plants behind them. Its really not ideal to have happy bushy plants in front of the unhappy plants.. This whole corner needs a bit of rearranging, none of it went entirely the way I had planned. You know what they say, no battleplan survives contact with the enemy real life. Actually just about none of the plan has worked out exactly the way I thought it would, but thats just how it goes. Almost all of these plants were new to me, I didnt know how they grow, whether they would do well or struggle, or what sort of trimming they like. So they way I see it, a little bit of getting-to-know is unavoidable.

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Final shot of Tonina and Hydrocotyle grown under 0.5 Fe. The latter also got a really big hacking back so the growth was a little bit slowed, but still sufficient to see that its still pale.

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Whenever I feel plants are too difficult I look into this wild little corner here where the crypts and little carpet plants hang out in merry wildness. Sure they have a bit of algae on some old leaves but all in all its pretty peaceful in this little corner, and the noodles like rummaging through the dense growth here. Towards the lower left, the crypt purchased as Queen Vandom has put out an interestingly marked new leaf, a pale silvery grey with green stripes.

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FTS complete with reflection, watermarks, all that good stuff 😊 Im happy that the general amount of plantmass is increasing.
 
I really enjoy viewing all these plant photos. definitely agree with making space for your plants to grow... once plantmass increases, you really have to be merciless about making sure the fast growers don't shade the other plants... Ammannia Golden loves light 🌞🌞🌞
 
A week with no micros is almost up. Some of the plants have stalled somewhat under zero micros and have let me know they're not too happy, so Im going to let them have some micros again starting tomorrow. It still feels strange how fast the turnaround on a CO2 injected tank is. Theres just no way to tell that the plants are slightly unhappy in just one week in low tech. Its more of a "change one thing and lets see in two months time" kind of deal. The maintenance and supervision required is also matched, which is why both "speeds" are great in their own way. But specifically for messing around with stuff, the near instant results of high tech is very gratifying.

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Pantanal has turned bright red at the top since last week, but not in a good way I suspect. Its buddy A. p. Golden has put out one whole set of leaves, can we get an applause going here for the slow grower :clap::crazy:

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Marilia looks about the same, the dominant stems have shot upwards but cant see any change in color for the worse.

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Ive started planting up the back with some of the copious amounts of stargrass I produce every week. It grows like an absolute weed and just makes the tank feel a lot less bare.

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Cuba and Super Red have stalled and seem unhappy. Especially the Super Red which was growing at quite the speed has puckered up in dismay. Ludwigias are known hogs though, so its no surprise a sudden starvation diet doesnt sit well with them.
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Rotala OJ and Pink/Rosa were threatening to crawl out of the tank and got a complete replant after the pictures were taken. I moved both of them over to the right side of the tank, ill throw up a FTS tomorrow, it will be easier to just show it. Pink/Rosa seems like its quite hard to get any sort of color on, I have even let stems creep along the water surface but all it has gotten me is the tiniest teensiest flush of pink on the undersides. Maybe it needs more photon torpedo :twisted:
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Unhappy Java fern :inpain:

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The only winner this week is Hydrocotyle tripartita, which almost looks better!?


Now who wants to relocate some nautical seat-based outdoor furniture?! 😁
Ive whipped up a new batch of micros, I will be trying the ratios lifted directly from Marschner's book, (which is actually from Epstein so not sure why Marschner gets credit?)
As I have mentioned I dont expect terrestrial literature to be entirely copy-and-paste applicable to aquatic plants, but its close enough to many other micro mixes that I think it makes a decent starting point.
I have a big spreadsheet where I like to note down details on all the different fertilizers I come across, for aquariums, for terrestrial, and for hydroponic use. When you look at enough of these sets of numbers you realise most of them are pretty similar, and you start seeing trends and typical ranges. Surely a workable mix must be able to be found somewhere in that. I wasnt actually planning to go down the micro rabbithole so soon, but this strange chlorosis issue kind of forced my hand.

The original Epstein/Marschner micro numbers scaled down to 0.1 Fe;
0,1 Fe
0,05 Mn
0,02 Zn
0,02 B
0,006 Cu
0,0001 Mo
0,0001 Ni

Compared to the Tropica clone I have been dosing
0.1 Fe
0.0565 Mn
0.0029 Zn
0.0058 B
0.0087 Cu
0.0029 Mo
0.0002 Ni (My addition)

I did try dosing Tropica at 0.1 Fe for one week, it didnt seem to work so well, its possible it needed longer to work though, and I would like to retry it in the future.
As you can see Iron and Manganese is about the same, new mix will have ~7 times more Zinc, ~3 times more Boron, a bit less Copper, and quite a lot less Molybdenum.
Small change in Nickel too but this is entirely insignificant imo.

I found it interesting how close the Epstein/Marschner ratio is to the micro mix developed by burr740 over at TPT. I havent been able to find his latest recipe because of some of the trouble at TPT, but as of 03.01.2021 his ratio was the following (used at 4 times the amount);
0.1 Fe
0.02 Mn
0.02 Zn
0.02 B
0.002 Cu
0.0009 Mo
0.0002 Ni
For those not familiar with his posts, it was developed using his own tanks as test subjects, and seem to have arrived at approximately this ratio entirely on its own. His journey started when he kept having issues using a regular CSM+B mix, and the recipe is meant to be used with unchelated nutrients. As far as I know he doses EI, which should account for the higher total numbers in use. Unchelated vs chelated nutrients is also something I would like to explore later, but one insanity at a time.

Anyhow, since I have tried high, higher and pretty dang high it only makes sense that I would then want to try pretty low. So while I made the micro mix to 0.1, I will start out dosing 2/3 the amount just to see what happens. Admit it folks, even if you dont approve of my shenanigans at least it isnt boring :lol:

2/3 Epstein/Marschner will give us approx;
0,067 Fe
0,033 Mn
0,013 Zn
0,013 B
0,004 Cu
0,000067 Mo
0,000067 Ni

Starting to get into Seachem Flourish territory 😜

Hope you are all having a good weekend and see you again tomorrow :cigar:
 
What is the crypt in this photo? Looks awesome, apologies if you mentioned it before somewhere on the thread!
 
@LondonDragon Cryptocoryne Purpurea, highly recommended, its been very easy going here and beautifully patterned :thumbup:
Many thanks, I am adding that to my list, it will go nicely with the Cryptocoryne "Rosen Maiden" Nurii :)
 
2/3 Epstein/Marschner will give us approx;
0,067 Fe
0,033 Mn
0,013 Zn
0,013 B
0,004 Cu
0,000067 Mo
0,000067 Ni

Starting to get into Seachem Flourish territory 😜
some rubidium and vanadium perhaps?:lol::lol::lol:
 
some rubidium and vanadium perhaps?:lol::lol::lol:
Ah yes, I have a plan for that!
Step 1: Buy some really stanky salt, any kind will do, the more impurities the better
Step 2a: List all these impurities in my bespoke fertilizer
Step 2b: Say nothing
Step 3: Watch people wonder if these elements are beneficial for plant growth and see them buy mine because it is the completetestest.
Step 4: Profit
 
The Full Tank Shot I promised yesterday was a little bit delayed, it seems when the medication says water change 8 hours later, it really means 8 hours specifically and not whatever Hufsa thinks is "close enough" :crazy:. I dosed the tank right before I went to bed saturday night, and planned to do the water change sunday evening as usual, because this worked fine the first time. But the foggy bloom was even more aggressive this time, and about halfway through the photoperiod I was getting concerned. The plants were not pearling like they usually do, so I think the oxygen levels in the water column were lower than they normally are, could be because of the bacterial activity. The otos were looking at me a little bit expectantly, so while normally wait for the photoperiod to be over before I do a water change, I decided this shouldnt wait, so I turned off the CO2 and went to work. The tank still looked a bit milky the rest of sunday but now monday morning it is gin clear and beautiful again.

Yesterday (but after 80% WC) & Today
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I dont know if I am imagining things but the tank seems quite quick to get back on its feet again after any insults. Could it be the result of the mass of doped up plants or just my active imagination?
Either way, it always feels great to see the tank super clear and full of oxygen bubbles. I know I said I wasnt a fan of the 7-up look when it comes to CO2 microbubbles, but somehow the oxygen bubbles have endeared themselves to me more, and I dont mind seeing them as much. Maybe its because almost everything loves oxygen, and seeing photosynthesis so visibly makes me feel like everything is just humming with happiness. My fish are definitely not inactive with the amount of CO2 I am running, they are all over the place and full of gusto.

As you can see in the FTS some plants were trimmed and/or moved, right now there has spontaneously appeared a sort of yin/yang dark and light side split apart by the wood.
I run two Fluval's for lights as you know, but they are just freely rested on top of some beams, and I have sort of slid them to the back of the tank, and most to the right.
This gives the hungry section a lot of light while it spares the slower peeps over in the shady part.

I must confess, I have sinned against my cryptocorynes, namely Purpurea and Spiralis Red. Both these were planted from invitro, and when I saw just how many many rosettes there were in each cup, I knew I would have to thin out the stands in a relatively short time. But of course throwing out perfectly good plants feels so wrong, so I decided instead to grow them all out a bit to saleable size.
This was now, and while I wanted to keep the biggest plants it was just too messy trying to identify them, so the entire groups came out so I could sort them. I kept behind the three biggest Spiralis Red, and aorund 7 or so Purpurea. There were a ton of runners coming out of the motherplants of Purpurea, I think I counted 6! runners on one of them, but most had at least 3. I think the plants were maybe responding to the crowding in that corner, and wanted to try to make a grab for some "land beyond the thicket". There were a lot of expecting shrimp mothers hanging out in the thicket of plants, who got very annoyed at me for disturbing them. The motherplants had the runners snipped, old leaves trimmed and got replanted, I hope to encourage them to thicken up a bit again before starting to produce more babies. It remains to see how angry the Crypts will be with me for the disturbance.

Oh and I removed thread algae a little bit too hard and some of my Riccardia moss came loose. This led to me just plucking off any loose clumps, and leaving the edges that had naturally attached behind. I still need to remove some old glue spots, and im not sure whether or not to glue any back on. I dont want the entire piece of wood covered, but maybe a little bit more than what was left behind?
I think I need to redo the wood out of the tank, and that was just too much work so I am postponing it until I feel like it.


In my experience the secret ingredient for rotala to colour up is time.
I wonder if this is related to enriched substrates becoming less rich over time, since you use soil?
Then again my replanted rotala seems to be coloring up a bit more even now, so maybe there is something to time, not just nitrogen and light.



Final rambling: Must make a black spray bar SOME DAY, because this gray just sticks out so badly.
Maybe one day when I am 90 years old I will finally follow through one of my plans completely :angelic:
 
I aren’t sure, I think it’s more a plant maturity thing, regardless of age of soil it generally takes a few trimmings before they reliably show a flush of colour.
 
Part two of the CO2 saga:
Yesterday I switched out the JBL 20ppm drop checker liquid for the standard 4dkh/30ppm liquid I bought from CO2Art. Right out of the bottle I think the CO2Art one has much less bromothymol blue in it, which is disappointing, as it is so lightly colored its hard to see the exact shade of color.
Fast forward to today and the drop checker has now taken on the "end of day" color that should correspond to the max PH drop.

This is how it looks:
20220502_180041.jpg
How much CO2 am I actually running?! :oops::oops::oops:
This looks like a 30+ ppm color to me.

Has it been this high all along? I thought it was maybe 23-25 with the 20ppm liquid, so if this is the case then my estimate was quite far off 😅
Its not a perfect comparison unfortunately as I had to clean and adjust the spray bar yesterday, so the amount of surface agitation could have shifted slightly..
I need to perform another PH profile I think, that will be more reliable. I would check the actual PH level right now but its 18:20 and the CO2 already turned off at 17 so the window for today has closed.

As far as the wimpy color of the liquid goes, I definitely need to make my own, this is some B-S paying so much for a tiny bottle of the most anemic looking drop checker fluid :crazy:
I shot off a message to CO2Art to see if they agree with me that its off, but im not holding my breath. Im expecting them to say its too yellow, danger etc but not actually comment on the amount of bromothymol blue as I asked about. But maybe I will be pleasantly surprised 😉
 
Part two of the CO2 saga:
Yesterday I switched out the JBL 20ppm drop checker liquid for the standard 4dkh/30ppm liquid I bought from CO2Art. Right out of the bottle I think the CO2Art one has much less bromothymol blue in it, which is disappointing, as it is so lightly colored its hard to see the exact shade of color.
Fast forward to today and the drop checker has now taken on the "end of day" color that should correspond to the max PH drop.

This is how it looks:
View attachment 187833
How much CO2 am I actually running?! :oops::oops::oops:
This looks like a 30+ ppm color to me.

Has it been this high all along? I thought it was maybe 23-25 with the 20ppm liquid, so if this is the case then my estimate was quite far off 😅
Its not a perfect comparison unfortunately as I had to clean and adjust the spray bar yesterday, so the amount of surface agitation could have shifted slightly..
I need to perform another PH profile I think, that will be more reliable. I would check the actual PH level right now but its 18:20 and the CO2 already turned off at 17 so the window for today has closed.

As far as the wimpy color of the liquid goes, I definitely need to make my own, this is some B-S paying so much for a tiny bottle of the most anemic looking drop checker fluid :crazy:
I shot off a message to CO2Art to see if they agree with me that its off, but im not holding my breath. Im expecting them to say its too yellow, danger etc but not actually comment on the amount of bromothymol blue as I asked about. But maybe I will be pleasantly surprised 😉

If that were mine I’d also be reading it at, at least 30ppm, but ur right it is a bit wishy washy…..it almost looks diluted! 🙄

Be interesting to see what ur next profile tells you!!
 
🚨 Picture warning 🚨 (oh lord)
Im gonna do thumbnails to hopefully not blow up the server 🤯

FTS comparison, 6 days of plant growth with CO2 and medium light 🥴 (Are you feeling it now Mr. Krabs?)

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Things are improving, its not quite there yet for all species but some plants are doing much better.

Tonina in 0.5 Fe vs 0.067 Fe. This plant is no longer dying after I drastically reduced the micro dose.
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Hydrocotyle Tripartita & Mini are also happier

Before:
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After:
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However, the Heteranthera zosterifolia (Stargrass) still seems to be having some paleness despite growing well otherwise. Hygrophila polysperma is also not entirely fixed.
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Pantanal continues to improve, the three remaining stems are now slowly recovering instead of dying like they were. Color and size can still be improved.

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Marilia has a slight improvement while Cuba seems sort of on the fence. The Cuba got a bit angry with the week on zero micros and one stem decided to throw out a bunch of side shoots instead.

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Pedicellata 'Golden' has a few unstunted stems still and they appear to be growing.
In real life I would say the colors have improved a bit, but it doesnt show up on pictures.

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Just for fun, a picture of the staghorn party at the back of this wood :lol: The attached Riccardia is still doing well despite sharing its living space with various algae.

The amount of BBA overall in my tank seems to be decreasing somewhat, but green algae is on the rise, especially a new kind of thread algae that appeared virtually over night during the zero micro week.
It has been growing from the newest leaves of some select plants, and is very different to the thread algae I have had for ages. This one feels very silky, almost slimy, and you can hardly tell that you are grabbing it. My original thread algae is coarser and stronger and a bit more gritty. New thread algae just breaks apart when you grab on to it, while the old one can be pulled off the plants in mostly entire strands. New thread algae is quite straight with sweeping bends, while the old one is curlier.

A picture of the new thread algae taken earlier this week:
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I told @plantnoobdude I would grab a few pictures of the Buces.
This year Tropica had an april fools joke of blue anubias, however Bucephalandra "Blue Green" is not far off to being a legitimately blue plant.

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"Kedagang" from Tropica is also pretty blue, this one is more royal blue / purple than the petrol / turquoise of "Blue Green".
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Brownie Blue has the strongest blue shine, but its only visible from certain angles.
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My kuhlis quite like this little hut I made for them out of the end point of a coconut. Its right next to the feeding area, and they like to lounge around in it between meals.
I had the Queen moss strapped down with the loofah mesh at first, and kept cutting it back flush to the coconut as it grew. I did this two to three times, and on the last cutting I carefully took off the mesh and the moss stayed behind. Queen Moss is the fastest growing moss I have ever encountered, its even faster than christmas moss which is saying something.
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Overall im happy with the improvements this week. I will let the tank run for another week on this dose before evaluating what if anything to tweak to hopefully get the Stargrass and the rest of the plants to show the same improvement as Tonina and Hydrocotyle.
Going down in fertilizer dose always carries with it a longer lag period than going up, because the plants store previously uptaken nutrients. So I need to keep this in mind and give everything enough time to stabilize at a new level before changing anything.

CO2 and maintenance is the same as it has been, except I am doing slightly larger water changes to get the water column as clean as possible.

Will end the update with another picture of a much happier Tonina :thumbup:

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Love the little mossy kuhli hut. Holding the moss down with loofah mesh is a stroke of genius, it works so well!
It looks like your perseverance with lean dosing is going to be rewarded at last.
 
I had the same experience...
I was dosing 1ppm EDTA Fe from apfuk weekly (should be no issues with chelator ph efficiency)
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then I swapped to tenso clone at 0.1 Fe dtpa weekly.
several plants improved almost instantly
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apfuk 1ppm fe weekly tenso 0.1 dtpa fe weekly.

took about two weeks for tonina to improve fully.
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