The Miniaturist
Member
Slow but steady real progress & the hydroponic houseplants are looking excellent!
Hope you feel more yourself soon 😊
Hope you feel more yourself soon 😊
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Consistency Deficiency
- Thread starter Hufsa
- Start date
KirstyF
Member
Hope ur feeling better soon chick!
Looks like ur adventure into Co2 and funky dosing is starting to come together! 😊
Patience and perseverance will out!!
Well….possibly lots of swearing and perseverance…..but ur getting there! 😉
Take care, eat soup and get yourself well!!
Looks like ur adventure into Co2 and funky dosing is starting to come together! 😊
Patience and perseverance will out!!
Well….possibly lots of swearing and perseverance…..but ur getting there! 😉
Take care, eat soup and get yourself well!!
Thank you everyone for the well wishes, it always warms my heart a lot 🥰
Im still a little stuffy but the fever has passed and I was very happy to test negative for another round of Covid, so I was able to celebrate the Norwegian National Day yesterday with my family as planned. I was determined to eat some cake and icecream even if it had killed me
Couldnt taste much of the cake courtesy of the stuffy nose, but its the principle of it.Tank got a bit of a fever-influenced trim (and a waterchange) back on monday, it ended up pretty short, I think I just wanted to not have to deal with trimming plants for a while
I had to tilt the camera a bit so you can see the stargrass peeking out back there 😅
(Picture taken monday)
Not to worry though, the stargrass will be back at the surface in
Today my head was clear enough to whip up new micros as planned, this time we are trying Happis trace recipe, more or less, a bit less copper.
As you may remember I started out doing custom micro's with Tropica's recipe, and then I tried straight Epstein/Marschner out of curiosity.
So the tank has been running on this up until now;
0,1 Fe
0,05 Mn
0,02 Zn
0,02 B
0,006 Cu
0,0001 Mo
0,0001 Ni
Starting tomorrow;
0,1 Fe
0,067 Mn
0,013 Zn
0,013 B
0,006 Cu
0,003 Mo
0,0001 Ni
Summed up; Bit more Mn (Happi insists this is a more beneficial ratio, I am intrigued because it is higher relative to Fe than almost all my other fertilizer data sets),
a smidge less Zn and B, and a fair bit more Mo.
I had a feeling 0.0001 Mo in the previous might be too low, this figure is on the very lower end of the ranges I have record of.
I quite like the spreadsheet I have with all these different numbers. Theres just so many different ferts, trying to pick one and hoping that will work feels like complete guesswork, and when it doesnt work, when you increase the dose more and more trying to fix the chlorosis, and you reach the max dose but you still have issues, what do you do then?
Picking another one at random and doing it all over again feels like fumbling in the dark trying to solve it by chance. Especially since I enjoy understanding how things work and why.
So im always trying to look at this with a wide perspective, trying to find the overlap, the common ranges used, because most of them work well/ok for most people.
Im trying to find the red thread that links all of them together so I can understand the big picture.
Some of the traces are more forgiving than others. Boron for instance is reported to have a very narrow range between "not enough" and "too much". And we must accept that "too much" is a real thing. I believe we all do agree it is physically possible. We just dont all agree where that area is and if we are near it, but thats ok 😊
In a way I am thankful for having inert substrate. Theres no doubt a rich substrate makes things easier because it will pick up any slack in your dosing to a certain extent.
Dosing too much? Rich substrate will help you by hanging on to some of that. Not dosing enough? Rich substrate got your back and rooted plants can get it from there. But this wont last forever.
I dont like the idea of a system that has to be reset too often. Its too much work for not enough fun.
Inert substrate wont do you any favors because you have to get things exactly right. Bad for smoothing out mistakes, great for feedback!
Im very much aware that I am trying to thread the needle here to get things exactly right, and I like it. Im also probably the least qualified to do it but thats not gonna stop me from trying
I wouldnt do any of this if I didnt think it was interesting
Will be very interested to see if we can spot any differences in the next set of pictures with these relatively small adjustments in traces.
You wont be able to get rid of most present algae, specially filamentous algae without intervention, whether that's chemical or mechanical.
I respect that. If I may, what is your objective with your tank?Im very much aware that I am trying to thread the needle here to get things exactly right, and I like it. Im also probably the least qualified to do it but thats not gonna stop me from trying
I wouldnt do any of this if I didnt think it was interesting
Will be very interested to see if we can spot any differences in the next set of pictures with these relatively small adjustments in traces.
As much as I understand the desire to experiment, it's important to keep in mind that for you to conclude what a specific trace mixture would be doing (or not) would require several months of dosing the same. To that you also need to account for the changes occurring in your substrate (inert or not) and water column and have a deep understanding of the function of each trace in plant physiology. Plant experts agree that plant deficiencies or behavior are in fact rather difficult to assess because many times over it's a combination of multiple deficiencies or factors leading to a deficiency or behavior. That is why pinpointing an element, a ratio or even a macro element is not always as straightforward as a google search sometimes implies. That is why I have decided that I would not delve into fooling myself in diagnosing deficiencies, specially trace related ones. It's a very complicated matter.
Anecdote: yesterday I asked a fellow plant seller about the price of some anubias nana petit variegated that I have. I've never sold them so I showed him a picture, since I have a few in my tank. The guy immediately jumped to conclude that the variegation was due to trace deficiencies, just like that no questions asked... sigh.
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Results for this week are in, I was surprised. Symptoms are overall worse for most of the plants 😳
Patchy white banding is back on stargrass
Ludwigia Cuba has a little bit more color in the centers, but I think most likely just because it grew closer to the light.
It had a little sulk while it was short and freshly replanted, I attribute this to light proximity. The plant is suffering from the chlorosis issue, but when it is close to the light it is producing red pigments to protect itself from the intensity. This makes it look as if it is less pale than it actually is. So absent strong light it is almost completely white. Bottom line is the chlorosis doesnt seem better.
Ludwigia palustris Super Red is better than last week but not remotely 100% good
Misc unhappy customers;
Hydrocotyle still looking alright, so whatever issue doesnt seem to be bothering this one so much any longer.
Tonina is worse which is not good. Pantanal is Pantanal
Will consult with the high priest and my crystal orb to divine the next step 🧙♂️🔮
Considering reverting to a previous trace formula and upping the overall dose to 0.2 to see what happens.
Patchy white banding is back on stargrass
Ludwigia Cuba has a little bit more color in the centers, but I think most likely just because it grew closer to the light.
It had a little sulk while it was short and freshly replanted, I attribute this to light proximity. The plant is suffering from the chlorosis issue, but when it is close to the light it is producing red pigments to protect itself from the intensity. This makes it look as if it is less pale than it actually is. So absent strong light it is almost completely white. Bottom line is the chlorosis doesnt seem better.
Ludwigia palustris Super Red is better than last week but not remotely 100% good
Misc unhappy customers;
Hydrocotyle still looking alright, so whatever issue doesnt seem to be bothering this one so much any longer.
Tonina is worse which is not good. Pantanal is Pantanal
Will consult with the high priest and my crystal orb to divine the next step 🧙♂️🔮
Considering reverting to a previous trace formula and upping the overall dose to 0.2 to see what happens.
On the subject of BBA and staghorn algae.
Im not making any claims here because I dont fancy starting WW3, so if anyone feels like passionately discussing the following images please do so in a separate thread!
Im just sharing some pictures I have taken.
26.04 (From above, thick coating of BBA on all strands)
11.05 (Same pebble out of focus in the bottom of the pic)
15.05 Less BBA but some more thread algae
11.05
23.05 Appears to have less BBA and staghorn
Im not making any claims here because I dont fancy starting WW3, so if anyone feels like passionately discussing the following images please do so in a separate thread!
Im just sharing some pictures I have taken.
26.04 (From above, thick coating of BBA on all strands)
11.05 (Same pebble out of focus in the bottom of the pic)
15.05 Less BBA but some more thread algae
11.05
23.05 Appears to have less BBA and staghorn
Seems to be some quite significant chlorosis across the board - is that all new growth being affected - it looks like some older leaves are paling too?
As @Hanuman says though, its going to be difficult to ascribe cause and effect with such frequent changes to the dosing regime. It could well take longer than a week to the effects of a dosing change to become apparent. For example the effects you are seeing now could potentially be the result from dosing your were doing two or more weeks prior bringing the longer run equilibrium water column levels of a particular nutrient to the point of deficiency?
As @Hanuman says though, its going to be difficult to ascribe cause and effect with such frequent changes to the dosing regime. It could well take longer than a week to the effects of a dosing change to become apparent. For example the effects you are seeing now could potentially be the result from dosing your were doing two or more weeks prior bringing the longer run equilibrium water column levels of a particular nutrient to the point of deficiency?
Mostly new growth it seems.
True, ideally each change would run longer, but my situation is not an attempt to prove the meaning of life, the universe and everything (dont get me wrong im just being a bit silly), in which I mean im not trying to scientifically prove stuff, I am trying to fix a chlorosis issue before a couple of these plants die outright.
Since this is my only tank and I cant/wont run things entirely into the ground to see what happens, I have adopted a faster turnaround on changes in order to try to dial it into a workable range sooner.
Once things arent quite so actively sh*t I would like to make smaller changes and let them run for a longer time.
Possibly, although to minimize the effects of build up I perform quite large (80-90%) water changes each week.
plantnoobdude
Member
I would try this. sounds good.
if I remember is was based on marschner/epstein?
overall I think the tank looks very nice!
Thanks for this 🥰😄
If you look at it from a distance and dont know anything about plant nutrition I guess it is passable!
KirstyF
Member
Random thought @Hufsa.
On the basis of your inert substrate challenge, have you considered picking a couple of your stems and putting them in a wee pot of nice rich aquasoil (assuming you can lay your hands on a handful). Not sure if this would mess with your parameters as I guess even a wee bit would leach slightly but just thinking that the response of those by comparison, might add to your bank of knowledge!
The scientists out there will quite rightly shoot me as it’s a bit basic, but, as we think of our tanks as a holistic ecosystem, it might almost be like having a mini ‘control’ subject in the tank.
So….does having the plants in aquasoil with the subsequent available nutrient ‘top-up’ fix/improve the chlorosis and or other issues?
If yes, this could indicate or further confirm that the other tank parameters (light, flow, Co2 etc) are in fact appropriate for the plant and that the less rich water column dosing would be effective with those parameters, if aquasoil were used.
You therefore continue to figure out what you need to do to compensate for the ‘gap’ of not having that ‘top up’ available but with:
1 - A target plant for comparison
2 - A ‘proven’ break glass in case of emergency solution if you need to save some stems before they completely punk out on you.
It’s never gonna be quite this simple of course and might not work at all, but just a thought!!
Also, this may be completely contrary to your plans, so if it’s kind of defeating the object or simply not necessary then please feel free to completely ignore the suggestion and we shall never speak of it again!! 😉😂
On the basis of your inert substrate challenge, have you considered picking a couple of your stems and putting them in a wee pot of nice rich aquasoil (assuming you can lay your hands on a handful). Not sure if this would mess with your parameters as I guess even a wee bit would leach slightly but just thinking that the response of those by comparison, might add to your bank of knowledge!
The scientists out there will quite rightly shoot me as it’s a bit basic, but, as we think of our tanks as a holistic ecosystem, it might almost be like having a mini ‘control’ subject in the tank.
So….does having the plants in aquasoil with the subsequent available nutrient ‘top-up’ fix/improve the chlorosis and or other issues?
If yes, this could indicate or further confirm that the other tank parameters (light, flow, Co2 etc) are in fact appropriate for the plant and that the less rich water column dosing would be effective with those parameters, if aquasoil were used.
You therefore continue to figure out what you need to do to compensate for the ‘gap’ of not having that ‘top up’ available but with:
1 - A target plant for comparison
2 - A ‘proven’ break glass in case of emergency solution if you need to save some stems before they completely punk out on you.
It’s never gonna be quite this simple of course and might not work at all, but just a thought!!
Also, this may be completely contrary to your plans, so if it’s kind of defeating the object or simply not necessary then please feel free to completely ignore the suggestion and we shall never speak of it again!! 😉😂
I havent been very good at updating, or doing water changes 
Took a little bit of time off for my health. I wasnt up to mixing custom micros, so I kept the old mix running. Plants werent doing well on it, so I felt like I still had to do something, so I just doubled the dose to 0.2 to see what happened.
This gave us:
0,2 Fe
0,134 Mn
0,026 Zn
0,026 B
0,012 Cu
0,006 Mo
0,0002 Ni
Plants didnt like this either
There was some general improvement but still very glaring chlorosis issue.
Tonina continues to be pale, it was going so well when it got 0.067 Fe.. 🙁
Today I finally felt ready to tackle some fertilizer again, so I decided to pivot back to when the Tonina was green, which was when it got between 0.1 and 0.067 Fe with the following traces:
0.1 Fe
0.05 Mn
0.02 Zn
0.02 B
0.006 Cu
0.0001 Mo
0.0001 Ni
or
0,067 Fe
0,033 Mn
0,013 Zn
0,013 B
0,004 Cu
0,000067 Mo
0,000067 Ni
These two weekly micro regimes got me green Tonina, but the stargrass+ still had issues. So it was close, but not quite.
We're going to try a higher Fe to Mn ratio to see if this is the reason my plants are not uptaking the iron as they should. You may already know about the competitive relationship between Fe and Mn.
When I can have chlorotic Tonina at 0.5 Fe, but green Tonina at 0.067 Fe, that suggests to me that this isnt neccessarily about total levels of iron.
Anyhow, I just finished mixing the following, and the tank will get an overdue waterchange today and new micro from tomorrow.
0,1 Fe
0,02 Mn
0,013 Zn
0,013 B
0,006 Cu
0,003 Mo
0,0001 Ni
Onto the pictures! All but the last FTS were taken on monday before trim
Totally overgrown with a ton of stargrass and thread algae
Angry Pantanal and sad Tonina. Annoyed that the Pantanal stunted so badly I had to pinch the tops off.
The new mossy rock next to them contains one of the native mosses, actually the one I like the most.
Its an absolutely microscopic moss that grows in a nice weeping fashion. It had totally outgrown its original little pebble, so it got a transplant.
Im thinking of calling it Troll Moss.
Above the Troll Moss is two almost entirely identical varieties of Buce, Silver Grey and Pearl Grey. For a while I thought they would turn out to be exactly the same, but there is one notable difference I have found so far.
The underside of the leaves, clearly visible on a rolled up new leaf, is different. Silver Grey has a green underside and Pearl Grey has pink.
My Borneo crypts are slowing gaining speed, the Silver Queens and Striolata Tiger are putting on mass and the Striolata Mini has been flowering actually.
Queen Vandom is busy making a baby on a runner and the Ferruginea has decided to become two small plants.
Im transitioning the tank from stargrass dominance to more polysperma for a couple of reasons. The polysperma doesnt grow quite so insanely fast, the stargrass was very useful when I was low on plant mass, but this need is no longer there and im throwing out tons of plants every week. The polysperma is easier to trim for me, doesnt throw out quite as many aerial roots, and is more tolerant of high flow without damaging the leaves. The transition is a work in progress because I want to maintain overall good mass.
Took a little bit of time off for my health. I wasnt up to mixing custom micros, so I kept the old mix running. Plants werent doing well on it, so I felt like I still had to do something, so I just doubled the dose to 0.2 to see what happened.
This gave us:
0,2 Fe
0,134 Mn
0,026 Zn
0,026 B
0,012 Cu
0,006 Mo
0,0002 Ni
Plants didnt like this either
There was some general improvement but still very glaring chlorosis issue.Tonina continues to be pale, it was going so well when it got 0.067 Fe.. 🙁
Today I finally felt ready to tackle some fertilizer again, so I decided to pivot back to when the Tonina was green, which was when it got between 0.1 and 0.067 Fe with the following traces:
0.1 Fe
0.05 Mn
0.02 Zn
0.02 B
0.006 Cu
0.0001 Mo
0.0001 Ni
or
0,067 Fe
0,033 Mn
0,013 Zn
0,013 B
0,004 Cu
0,000067 Mo
0,000067 Ni
These two weekly micro regimes got me green Tonina, but the stargrass+ still had issues. So it was close, but not quite.
We're going to try a higher Fe to Mn ratio to see if this is the reason my plants are not uptaking the iron as they should. You may already know about the competitive relationship between Fe and Mn.
When I can have chlorotic Tonina at 0.5 Fe, but green Tonina at 0.067 Fe, that suggests to me that this isnt neccessarily about total levels of iron.
Anyhow, I just finished mixing the following, and the tank will get an overdue waterchange today and new micro from tomorrow.
0,1 Fe
0,02 Mn
0,013 Zn
0,013 B
0,006 Cu
0,003 Mo
0,0001 Ni
Onto the pictures! All but the last FTS were taken on monday before trim
Totally overgrown with a ton of stargrass and thread algae
Angry Pantanal and sad Tonina. Annoyed that the Pantanal stunted so badly I had to pinch the tops off.
The new mossy rock next to them contains one of the native mosses, actually the one I like the most.
Its an absolutely microscopic moss that grows in a nice weeping fashion. It had totally outgrown its original little pebble, so it got a transplant.
Im thinking of calling it Troll Moss.
Above the Troll Moss is two almost entirely identical varieties of Buce, Silver Grey and Pearl Grey. For a while I thought they would turn out to be exactly the same, but there is one notable difference I have found so far.
The underside of the leaves, clearly visible on a rolled up new leaf, is different. Silver Grey has a green underside and Pearl Grey has pink.
My Borneo crypts are slowing gaining speed, the Silver Queens and Striolata Tiger are putting on mass and the Striolata Mini has been flowering actually.
Queen Vandom is busy making a baby on a runner and the Ferruginea has decided to become two small plants.
Im transitioning the tank from stargrass dominance to more polysperma for a couple of reasons. The polysperma doesnt grow quite so insanely fast, the stargrass was very useful when I was low on plant mass, but this need is no longer there and im throwing out tons of plants every week. The polysperma is easier to trim for me, doesnt throw out quite as many aerial roots, and is more tolerant of high flow without damaging the leaves. The transition is a work in progress because I want to maintain overall good mass.
Attachments
My precious baby bolbitiseses are sulking a little bit after the treatment they got. You see, @dw1305 keeps some creatures in his tanks that he likes to compare to shrimp.
The problem is that I find his "shrimp" species to be absolutely horrifyingly icky heebie jeebie inducing little things. I wanted the plants but I didnt want anything else
Wooki suggested carbonated water to "gas" any hitchhikers without damaging the plants. Maybe I overdid it, but the leaves have melted back some after it.
The left one has taken it hardest, but the rhizomes still look ok, and I see new growth already on the right one. So I think in due time they will come around 🙂
And I havent seen any signs of creatures 😁
The problem is that I find his "shrimp" species to be absolutely horrifyingly icky heebie jeebie inducing little things. I wanted the plants but I didnt want anything else
Wooki suggested carbonated water to "gas" any hitchhikers without damaging the plants. Maybe I overdid it, but the leaves have melted back some after it.
The left one has taken it hardest, but the rhizomes still look ok, and I see new growth already on the right one. So I think in due time they will come around 🙂
And I havent seen any signs of creatures 😁
Updates are probably going to be a bit sparse from this side for a while. My health and outlook usually takes a bit of a dive around summertime, and when I do have energy I usually want to spend it with family and the doggo. Ill keep the tank ticking along with plant trimming and making sure it doesnt run out of ferts, as the latter has traditionally been very hard on my plants, and the former is a new neccessity from CO2. Will definitely make sure CO2 doesnt run out either. Water changes will probably be reduced to monthly.
Not to worry though, I will probably be back to regular form in autumn as usual 😊
See you on the other side
Not to worry though, I will probably be back to regular form in autumn as usual 😊
See you on the other side
The Miniaturist
Member
Wishing you the health & strength for everything you want to do. Take care. 😊
John q
Member
Sending good vibes mate, life's about prioritising.... 👍
KirstyF
Member
Will miss you hon. Take care, be well, and enjoy the family time. 😊
ElleDee
Member
Take care of yourself, Hufsa, and we'll be here when you feel up to it.
