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Consistency Deficiency
- Thread starter Hufsa
- Start date
A mid week photo update. There was some concern wether or not the plants paleness could be caused by insufficient Magnesium, so yesterday I threw in a good spoon (~2.6ppm) and gave it until today to see if there were any results. Magnesium is a mobile nutrient (deficiency would affect old growth first) and from what I understand deficient plants should show a rapid greening when supplied with more Mg. It doesnt appear so, but its good to have ruled it out 
The poor Toninas are almost white now, sigh. I hope I can get this sorted before the plant taps out entirely.
The biggest stem looks like it MAYBE has a tiny bit greener growth in the center, everyone cross their fingers that 0.2 Fe is working, and I hope to see more green by the weekend.
I am also a little bit concerned because right now the plants are not in a good state to experiment on. Having ratty bottom stems is not dangerous because you always have fresh new growth at the top, but when the actively growing part of the plant is struggling like this, I feel like the risk of losing the plant entirely is much greater. There is no room in the budget right now to rebuy any species, so I want to keep any experimenting in the survivable range. If the Hydrocotyle (which is very fast growing but also pale) is not showing better green by the weekend then I am going up to 0.3 Fe and postponing all other things. I can always go down again when plants are in better health. So right now my main goal is to not lose any species of plants and get the chlorosis sorted.
To me the Ludwigia Cuba shows the new growth being affected very clearly, I cant see how this paleness could be a mobile nutrient when the gradient is like this in the plant.
I moved a few stems of two kinds of Rotala and a bit of Pantanal up into a cup, this cup gets much more light, so I just want to see what happens to these stems.
I was inspired by @Hanuman 's use of cups for light-loving plants.
I also got some invitro Heteranthera zosterifolia. More plants is never the wrong choice
I might replace the Hygrophila polysperma with this one eventually, the stargrass is a bit smaller growing.
I should make sure to keep a few stems of polysperma though, I can just stuff them in some forgotten corner. I promised myself not to get rid of species entirely, but then I threw out Limnophila sessiliflora a while back and am a bit annoyed at myself for doing so 😅 Could have kept just one stem or something.
The poor Toninas are almost white now, sigh. I hope I can get this sorted before the plant taps out entirely.
The biggest stem looks like it MAYBE has a tiny bit greener growth in the center, everyone cross their fingers that 0.2 Fe is working, and I hope to see more green by the weekend.
I am also a little bit concerned because right now the plants are not in a good state to experiment on. Having ratty bottom stems is not dangerous because you always have fresh new growth at the top, but when the actively growing part of the plant is struggling like this, I feel like the risk of losing the plant entirely is much greater. There is no room in the budget right now to rebuy any species, so I want to keep any experimenting in the survivable range. If the Hydrocotyle (which is very fast growing but also pale) is not showing better green by the weekend then I am going up to 0.3 Fe and postponing all other things. I can always go down again when plants are in better health. So right now my main goal is to not lose any species of plants and get the chlorosis sorted.
To me the Ludwigia Cuba shows the new growth being affected very clearly, I cant see how this paleness could be a mobile nutrient when the gradient is like this in the plant.
I moved a few stems of two kinds of Rotala and a bit of Pantanal up into a cup, this cup gets much more light, so I just want to see what happens to these stems.
I was inspired by @Hanuman 's use of cups for light-loving plants.
I also got some invitro Heteranthera zosterifolia. More plants is never the wrong choice
I might replace the Hygrophila polysperma with this one eventually, the stargrass is a bit smaller growing.I should make sure to keep a few stems of polysperma though, I can just stuff them in some forgotten corner. I promised myself not to get rid of species entirely, but then I threw out Limnophila sessiliflora a while back and am a bit annoyed at myself for doing so 😅 Could have kept just one stem or something.
Hi all,
cheers Darrel
It has to be iron (Fe) and /or possibly manganese (Mn).
cheers Darrel
I was taking a little trip down memory lane looking at earlier pictures in my journal. I was looking for a good picture of new growth on java fern that displays the translucent tips they often have.
As I was scrolling through I realized that all the pictures I have show slightly pale new growth. I couldnt find a single picture where it wasnt like this. Normally I probably wouldnt have noticed this, but since ive been struggling with chlorotic growth lately I have been more aware of things, and have been looking to backtrack through the journal to find a period of time where I had good growth, and then see what I was dosing then.
Can someone tell me if java ferns are supposed to be light at the tips on new growth? Not the translucent bit but the part below that.
I feel like I am losing my mind here Either they are supposed to be this way, or I have had a chlorosis issue going on for years, its just not been very dramatic because I was running low tech.
Does anyone have pictures of new growth on theirs?
As I was scrolling through I realized that all the pictures I have show slightly pale new growth. I couldnt find a single picture where it wasnt like this. Normally I probably wouldnt have noticed this, but since ive been struggling with chlorotic growth lately I have been more aware of things, and have been looking to backtrack through the journal to find a period of time where I had good growth, and then see what I was dosing then.
Can someone tell me if java ferns are supposed to be light at the tips on new growth? Not the translucent bit but the part below that.
I feel like I am losing my mind here
Either they are supposed to be this way, or I have had a chlorosis issue going on for years, its just not been very dramatic because I was running low tech.Does anyone have pictures of new growth on theirs?
John q
Member
Back in January I became convinced these lighter tips we caused by some nutrient deficiency, now I'm not so sure my theory was correct and think the likes of needle leaf tend to initially grow like this.
For the last 3 weeks I've been adding extra Fe, Mg and Mn and the newer needle leaf tips still look like yours.
Not the best pics but something to compare.
For the last 3 weeks I've been adding extra Fe, Mg and Mn and the newer needle leaf tips still look like yours.
Not the best pics but something to compare.
Blurry but perfect, thanks!
Ive just spent the past hour squinting at a ton of pictures of java fern from all over the internet and it seems normal.
I think ive been sipping too much tinfoil-hat-juice, the chlorotic plants are just making me a bit easily spooked
Now we're starting to get somewhere!
3 days of growth between pics. Tripartita is looking about 2/3 of the way there for greenness I'd estimate.
Cuba has slightly less improvement but some, you can see the newest growth has a yellower hue.
Tonina not great, but this plant doesnt seem to grow as fast as tripartita (which is just a total weed).
Since 0.2 Fe has helped but isnt entirely there im going up to 0.3 and I think there will be good improvement in the plants given some more time.
I suspect the Tonina will always have a slightly higher need for Fe than the others, so im using that as a guideline.
With more plantmass I suspect I will have to go up to 0.4 eventually. I have a few spathiphyllum offshoots that I am planning to add to grow out emersed from the back of the tank, but I am not going to add them until I see that my submersed plants are getting what they need. Emersed plants will just drive up demand for nutrients even further.
3 days of growth between pics. Tripartita is looking about 2/3 of the way there for greenness I'd estimate.
Cuba has slightly less improvement but some, you can see the newest growth has a yellower hue.
Tonina not great, but this plant doesnt seem to grow as fast as tripartita (which is just a total weed).
Since 0.2 Fe has helped but isnt entirely there im going up to 0.3 and I think there will be good improvement in the plants given some more time.
I suspect the Tonina will always have a slightly higher need for Fe than the others, so im using that as a guideline.
With more plantmass I suspect I will have to go up to 0.4 eventually. I have a few spathiphyllum offshoots that I am planning to add to grow out emersed from the back of the tank, but I am not going to add them until I see that my submersed plants are getting what they need. Emersed plants will just drive up demand for nutrients even further.
I see the second photo of tripartita in my previous post has a slightly yellower cast than the first, which skews the comparison slightly.
My phone does this on its own, I think it gets confused by the LED lights.
I dont have the editing skills to tone down just the yellow hue of an image so it will just have to stay that way.
Today is water change day again, and at this exact moment I realised I forgot to put water in the barrel yesterday 😳 Oops..
ahem Tomorrow is water change day. (Its possible the barrel will finish heating up late today, I will have to see..)
I will try to get a new batch of macros made today with Happi's recipe. Not sure yet wether I want to postpone implementing it, the plants will probably like the Urea but will they like the lower total levels.
And do I dare do it now while some of the plants are still not looking so hot.. 🤔
My phone does this on its own, I think it gets confused by the LED lights.
I dont have the editing skills to tone down just the yellow hue of an image so it will just have to stay that way.
Today is water change day again, and at this exact moment I realised I forgot to put water in the barrel yesterday 😳 Oops..
ahem Tomorrow is water change day. (Its possible the barrel will finish heating up late today, I will have to see..)
I will try to get a new batch of macros made today with Happi's recipe. Not sure yet wether I want to postpone implementing it, the plants will probably like the Urea but will they like the lower total levels.
And do I dare do it now while some of the plants are still not looking so hot.. 🤔
KirstyF
Member
Just doing a bit of a post catch up. Looks like you’ve been having some fun.
Do you ever think that having an aquarium is like having kids……although in this case, they might actually start behaving if only you can find them the right bag of sweets. 🙄😂
Do you ever think that having an aquarium is like having kids……although in this case, they might actually start behaving if only you can find them the right bag of sweets. 🙄😂
I got the water change finished after all yesterday, it ahem got a bit late but it got done 😅
I got just about all of the water changed, I drained the tank down to just a couple centimeters in the front and the large Aquael canister was also emptied of water.
TDS in the tank was 222 before water change, fresh water remineralized had a TDS of 113, and TDS after water change settled at 123.
So a total of about 10ppm's worth of old tank water was left. I think that will be entirely good enough as a clean slate. I had decided against doing a double change to be kinder to my shrimp.
As if that wasnt enough, after the very late water change I did some even later fertilizer making. Normally making ferts so late at night would not be recommended, but when I am not a permanently exhausted pigeon I tend to be a bit of a night owl, so theres no guarantee making the fertilizer at a more appropriate time would have been any better. In fact the last time I mixed ferts in daytime there were tons of mistakes, so ill stick with what I do.
The new macro is made out to a target of 1 N (not NO3) per week, but Happi said to start at 1.75 N so I am multiplying my dose by that.
Normal dose is 30ml, 30ml x 1.75 = ~52 ml. Technically 52.5 but my doser doesnt do half mililiters.
This will give me a weekly;
NO3 7.75 (N 1.75)
PO4 0.7 (P 0.22)
K 1.17
(Micros are 0.3 Fe still)
This is not far off from Tropica Specialized at recommended dosing which is;
NO3 7.12 (N 1.6)
PO4 0.36 (P 0.12)
K 1.236
Most notable difference seemingly being the P.
Because of the "low" amount of K in Tropica, we are fairly sure that Tropica uses something else than KNO3 for its N.
The community's best guess is Urea and/or NH4NO3.
Since I wouldnt think twice about the safety of dosing Tropica Specialized at recommended levels, I think doing the same for Happi's starting dose will be safe.
If I was to start dosing Urea at EI levels I would probably want a gradual introduction.
But regardless, in an abundance of caution I set up my doser to spread the macro dose out over the photoperiod.
Previously I had the doser set up to dose micros at lights on and macros ~12 hours later.
I have recently read that plants uptake of nitrate and ammonium "increases during the day with a maximum at the end of the light period after which the uptake decreases."
It doesnt say anything about Urea, but I think Urea might not be naturally occurring at the levels that we fertilize plants with.
Anyway, I set the doser to do micros at lights on and then spread the macro out into four doses of 13ml to be dosed with an hour between them. Right now the doses are in the early part of the photoperiod, but I might change this a bit later. Since the plants grow pretty hard at the start of the photoperiod, I wanted the macros to hit the water in time for that demand.
I have taken fresh reference photos from above of the plants today just as light came on, because some of the plants have moved slightly and same locations makes for better comparison shots.
Will probably take a new set in three days time and again in a week.
I will monitor the fish and shrimp closely and of course also the plants. CO2 levels also.
Have plans to record TDS changes as well to get a little sneak peek at what is going on.
I feel like I was supposed to write something else as well but I have forgotten 😉 Too-de-loo for now
Attachments
plantnoobdude
Member
I like this recipe, the kno3 negates the need for other K salts. and lowers unwanted tds. I might do that for my next batch! i wonder if kno3+nh4no3 will be too much no3 though...
Picture from monday and today/wednesday. Slight yellow hue difference in photos, but also maybe slight improvement.
No change in Tonina. Wont spam pictures for the rest of the plants until weekend since there is nothing dramatic to report.
Plants seem perfectly happy so far and are still pearling like idiots.
@dw1305 can you confirm that the leaves are supposed to green up as long as they are expanding in size?
To clarify, I am wondering when the cut-off time is for when a leaf is no longer considered "new".
Iron and Manganese deficiency will show up in "new leaves". But what exactly is new? How long until the plant can no longer "improve" new leaves and they become "old"?
The reason I ask is because I am seeing that some of the new-ish leaves are gaining green color, even though the plant technically has another leaf that is even newer.
Is the improvement of greenness the pictures show in "new-ish" leaves in line with what we expect for iron/mn deficiency, or maybe not?
Belated sunday update, chlorosis issue still isnt fixed yet at 0.3 Fe DTPA (+ traces). Im tired of playing catch up with this issue, so I have set the doser to give 0.5 as of today, and if this fixes it I can then try lowering it to 0.4 once plants are recovered. Im getting hella suspicious about this whole thing, im either missing something or barking up entirely the wrong tree 🤨
Hydrocotyle got a bit of a snip snip as it was crawling way out of its designated area.
Pantanal is doing ever so slightly better, the grouping at the back of the tank accidentally came out when I was removing some thread algae a while ago.
I had replanted the stems mostly in the front of the tank hoping to save them before they die entirely. The one in the pot closer to the light also seems better, this one is has the widest leaves of them all (the white part is the reflection of the water surface, the plant touches it when the filters are off).
After the pictures were taken some of the plants got a trim, the Blyxa is chlorotic too but still growing quite a lot, the bush was trimmed again and I replanted about 30%. The plant grouping was so dense I dont think much flow was getting to the area behind it.
Myriophyllum sp. Guyana got its first trim, this one doesnt appear to be particularly affected by the chlorosis issue and has been very steadily growing.
This plant branches out readily on its own and just about every shoot had 5 tops growing on it, it got topped and replanted because it too was a very thick wall stopping the flow going behind it. Next time I might try just cutting the tops and leaving the bottoms to regrow.
I had a few ponderings when I was replanting, they say healthy plantmass is good, but they also say trimming is good because you get better flow (delivery of CO2 and nutrients). In this case I was removing healthy plantmass to hopefully help the not so healthy plantmass. I was wondering if this is the right move or not. Im not sure there is any set answer for this.
A few more plants got a snip here and there but I dont need to write down this in every excruciating detail 😉
Some unrelated pictures taken earlier this week. Algae and pearling sums it up pretty well.
Hydrocotyle got a bit of a snip snip as it was crawling way out of its designated area.
Pantanal is doing ever so slightly better, the grouping at the back of the tank accidentally came out when I was removing some thread algae a while ago.
I had replanted the stems mostly in the front of the tank hoping to save them before they die entirely. The one in the pot closer to the light also seems better, this one is has the widest leaves of them all (the white part is the reflection of the water surface, the plant touches it when the filters are off).
After the pictures were taken some of the plants got a trim, the Blyxa is chlorotic too but still growing quite a lot, the bush was trimmed again and I replanted about 30%. The plant grouping was so dense I dont think much flow was getting to the area behind it.
Myriophyllum sp. Guyana got its first trim, this one doesnt appear to be particularly affected by the chlorosis issue and has been very steadily growing.
This plant branches out readily on its own and just about every shoot had 5 tops growing on it, it got topped and replanted because it too was a very thick wall stopping the flow going behind it. Next time I might try just cutting the tops and leaving the bottoms to regrow.
I had a few ponderings when I was replanting, they say healthy plantmass is good, but they also say trimming is good because you get better flow (delivery of CO2 and nutrients). In this case I was removing healthy plantmass to hopefully help the not so healthy plantmass. I was wondering if this is the right move or not. Im not sure there is any set answer for this.
A few more plants got a snip here and there but I dont need to write down this in every excruciating detail 😉
Some unrelated pictures taken earlier this week. Algae and pearling sums it up pretty well.
plantnoobdude
Member
I am still betting on Co3 causing the issue. not trying to doubt you hufsa but I would also try making up a new micro mix to makesure you haven't gotten any errors in the current batch. loving the red crypt! cute little fishies as well.
Few things I forgot to add, I think a part of the "lean dosing thing" is running higher light levels than what I am currently. I will ask in the thread for confirmation of this, but I am thinking of slowly (well relatively slowly in Hufsa terms) increasing my lights as soon as the chlorosis issue is improved.
I think some of my more light hungry plants would be very happy about an increase in intensity.
If I need some shadier areas I can always relocate the Bolbitis to the middle of the tank somewhere, and it should shade out a pretty large area.
If my plants arent growing fresh green new leaves by next weekend I am going to start looking elsewhere (outside of iron) for a solution.
Fingers crossed the fairly substantial increase from 0.3 to 0.5 does the job.
Theres just absolutely no way they need more than 0.5 ppm of DTPA weekly. In INERT substrate!
0.5 ppm weekly is full EI levels of traces 😳 Why would they need this much? Doesnt add up.
Thoughts:
Beside redoing the micro mix and making really sure there hasnt been any mistake, my first thought is to take a closer look at the rest of the traces.
Manganese is pretty decent at 0.056 ppm Mn to 0.1 ppm Fe. @Happi has his trace mix at 0.067 ppm, could try increasing this and see.
But im not convinced 0.011 ppm difference could really cause this much of a ruckus.
Zinc is one I have been thinking about for a while. Tropica's levels are pretty low compared to several other mixes.
If we scale the mixes to 0.1 Fe, Tropica gives 0.0029 ppm Zn.
Compare this to some ratios from my notes;
0.02 ppm Zn (Epstein)
0.019 ppm Zn (Solufeed TEC)
0.014 ppm Zn (APF UK)
0.014 ppm Zn (Happi)
0.02 ppm Zn (PPS Pro v2.3)
0.022 ppm Zn (Yara Rexolin APN)
Some of them are greater by almost an order of magnitude.
Boronseems unlikely, associated with mostly structural stuff and not chlorophyll.
[Edit:] Seems like this one would be second in line to try, the expression between plant species appears to be quite variable. Tropica's dose is not the highest.
Copper unlikely, pretty high in Tropica ratios.
Molybdenum also unlikely, Tropica ratio has this higher than many other mixes.
I should also shoot off an email to the waterworks, see if they can give me any figures for phosphate levels in my tap water.
I have never tested it myself and I would rather not spend money to buy a test kit if a free email will do the trick.
For it to be a precipitation issue the phosphate levels would have to be pretty wild I think, so I dont think this is the problem.
Your KH is 4 though, mine is 3. Unless they are made different somehow I dont understand how you can dose 0.08 Fe weekly and I am still having issues with 0.3.
Anyone, feel free to educate me on the matter 😅
I think some of my more light hungry plants would be very happy about an increase in intensity.
If I need some shadier areas I can always relocate the Bolbitis to the middle of the tank somewhere, and it should shade out a pretty large area.
If my plants arent growing fresh green new leaves by next weekend I am going to start looking elsewhere (outside of iron) for a solution.
Fingers crossed the fairly substantial increase from 0.3 to 0.5 does the job.
Theres just absolutely no way they need more than 0.5 ppm of DTPA weekly. In INERT substrate!
0.5 ppm weekly is full EI levels of traces 😳 Why would they need this much? Doesnt add up.
Thoughts:
Beside redoing the micro mix and making really sure there hasnt been any mistake, my first thought is to take a closer look at the rest of the traces.
Manganese is pretty decent at 0.056 ppm Mn to 0.1 ppm Fe. @Happi has his trace mix at 0.067 ppm, could try increasing this and see.
But im not convinced 0.011 ppm difference could really cause this much of a ruckus.
Zinc is one I have been thinking about for a while. Tropica's levels are pretty low compared to several other mixes.
If we scale the mixes to 0.1 Fe, Tropica gives 0.0029 ppm Zn.
Compare this to some ratios from my notes;
0.02 ppm Zn (Epstein)
0.019 ppm Zn (Solufeed TEC)
0.014 ppm Zn (APF UK)
0.014 ppm Zn (Happi)
0.02 ppm Zn (PPS Pro v2.3)
0.022 ppm Zn (Yara Rexolin APN)
Some of them are greater by almost an order of magnitude.
Boron
[Edit:] Seems like this one would be second in line to try, the expression between plant species appears to be quite variable. Tropica's dose is not the highest.
Copper unlikely, pretty high in Tropica ratios.
Molybdenum also unlikely, Tropica ratio has this higher than many other mixes.
I should also shoot off an email to the waterworks, see if they can give me any figures for phosphate levels in my tap water.
I have never tested it myself and I would rather not spend money to buy a test kit if a free email will do the trick.
For it to be a precipitation issue the phosphate levels would have to be pretty wild I think, so I dont think this is the problem.
When you say CO3 causing the issue, what exactly do you mean? Im not completely up to date on the KH aspect of things as I usually dont think much about it.
Your KH is 4 though, mine is 3. Unless they are made different somehow I dont understand how you can dose 0.08 Fe weekly and I am still having issues with 0.3.
Anyone, feel free to educate me on the matter 😅
Last edited:
Garuf
Member
Wild card, but could you be below or very close to the minimum light threshold?
An interesting idea, but if you go back a few (or many im not sure) posts, you can see a picture of some hydrocotyle that grew only a few centimeters from the light. These leaves were actually the worst affected by chlorosis.
you gonna have to be little patient and hang in there, we will eventually solve this, its not going to happen overnight.
this is based on Tenso Coktail Clone, weather I use the Tropica clone or this one they both have good results as they both use Fe;Mn ratio around 2:1
I believe you use the custom made micro? you can post the details over here, so we can take a look.
I know it takes a lil while to show improvement, but the turnover of new leaves from the H. tripartita is pretty rapid and I am kinda trying to save my Tonina from dying. Its hard for me to reacquire this plant.
The details are already here, just a few pages back 😉
plantnoobdude
Member
co3 inhibits uptake of Fe, as I speculated in another comment because tonina comes from very softwater it also has mechanisms to protect its self from High Fe or trace toxicity. the double hit of Fe inhibition is probably what's causing the issue. and no, my kh is not 4, it is 0!
