Thomas you need to add more CO2. It's that simple. I recall your water supply is very soft, so just aim for a bigger pH drop. That's all you need to do mate. It's not rocket science.
Cheers,
Cheers,
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Calling for help, starting to be tired !!!
- Thread starter zanguli-ya-zamba
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Yup most of the nutrients will be rapidly recycled and stored in the biomass...but like Darrel also said the photoperiod is a little short.
NatureBoy
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- 27 Aug 2008
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Melting plants are caused by poor CO2 and has nothing to do with EI. Poor CO2 is the cause of 95% of the problems out there. EI cannot fix that. Only good CO2 can fix it.
Cheers,
Cheers,
zanguli-ya-zamba
Seedling
Hi Clive,
thanks for your answer, should I increase the injection rate on one shot ? or should I go slowly to not stress the metabolism inside the plant ?
I know I ask a lot, but should I go for a drop of more than 2 ph point ?
When I degas water I have a Ph of 7,3, is this base from where I have drop the ph. Because before CO2 is on in my tank ph is 5,2. So which one should be the base ?
7,3 or 5,2 ??
As soon as I arrive at home I will crank the CO2, and cross finger. I don't care I don't have any live stock (even snail lol) I want to grow plant before going back to fish.
What about photoperiod ? should I go for 6 hours now or I stay to 5 hours.
I know the answer but I would like to ask again. Do you think that on 72w at 30 cm from the water surface for 200 L (90x45x50 cm) is enough to grow plant 😛 ???
cheers
zanguli-ya-zamba
Seedling
Hi Darrel
thank you for you in put !
I wanted to know why you suggest me to up my photoperiod ? do you think that because of the low light I have 72 w over 200 L (90x45x50cm) is not enough powerful to have a good start in the photosynthesis process. So lengthen the photoperiod of one or two hour could help this process. I am just curious about everything haha 😛.
cheers
NatureBoy
Member
- Joined
- 27 Aug 2008
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- 374
Hi
Just to be clear you can degass your aquarium water and it will be 7.3? So the drop to pH 3.9 is purely CO2 related?
This is weird...the pH of carbonic acid at normal atmospheric pressures is about 5.7, Only under high pressure like in a soda bottle can the pH fall lower due to CO2...it's a weak acid
At pH 5.2 and even with zero carbonate I'd say CO2 was maxed out...
Hi Thomas,
Going higher in CO2 is never a problem for plants. Going down is the problem. They are CO2 addicts, so it's never a problem to add more. Drop the pH by WHATEVER VALUE IT TAKES TO ARREST THE POOR CO2.
I cannot really say why your CO2 is ineffective mate. It's possible that Congolese weather is too warm (I don't know that for sure. It's just a possibility).
If the bulbs are 30cm from the water and if the tank is 50cm tall then the largest distance possible is 80cm, which is about 32 inches. Multiply by 2 bulbs and that brings you just into the pink area on the PAR chart. Probably your distance is less than 80cm if you have substrate, so this is not a problem at all.
If you want to increase the photoperiod you can go to 8 hours, but I believe, fundamentally, that the problems are occurring at lights on. Inject more gas, especially if there is no livestock.
Any images of how the distribution is?
Cheers,
zanguli-ya-zamba
Seedling
Hi Clive,
thank you for looking at the chart for me 😛
In fact I have totally forgot that few month ago I lowered my light to 20 cm. Bulb are exactly at 67 cm from the substrate where Monte Carlo is.
So I must be in the good range with the 2x36 w ??
Unfortunately yesterday I run out of CO2, but lucky me 3 days ago I send my spare FE for refile so I will get it today.
You are telling me to crank CO2 so tonight I instal the bottle and pump the max CO2 I can. My only regards is about consumption, it will be expensive for me to do that, but I least I can do this for a month or two to get the plant set and than reduce slowly ?
So I will increase photoperiod to 7 hours and crank CO2 up.
I really want to grow plant !!!! hahaha and I want to masteries how to grow these plant. before going in aesthetic scape and fish, I want to be sure that I know how to grow them, and not crossing finger every time I start a new scape !!!
I know the theory, the problems occurs when I have to apply it.
I will try to take a small film like that you can how flow is. I can ensure you that flow is good. I will try to film this.
thanks for your help and I will do my best.
cheers
Hi all,
If the plants are melting this means they are shedding leaves that they can't support, and the only potentially limiting nutrient you have is light.
If a leaf is shaded to the extent that it is a net consumer, rather than a net producer, the plant will shed it.
If a leaf is in the light, but it never gets above "light compensation point" <Compensation point - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia>, the plant will shed it. You can't compensate for this by a longer light period, the problem is intensity rather than duration.
You have added CO2 and all the nutrients (just check, they are N, P, K, Mg, Ca, Fe, and micro-nutrients Cl,Si, S, Mo, Mn, Cu, Co, Zn, B, (Ni)) <Soil - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia>).
I always run a 12 hour day, whatever light I have, and just add plant biomass until the tank is stable.
cheers Darrel
Assuming you have non-limiting CO2 and nutrients, there isn't really anything else left other than light.
If the plants are melting this means they are shedding leaves that they can't support, and the only potentially limiting nutrient you have is light.
If a leaf is shaded to the extent that it is a net consumer, rather than a net producer, the plant will shed it.
If a leaf is in the light, but it never gets above "light compensation point" <Compensation point - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia>, the plant will shed it. You can't compensate for this by a longer light period, the problem is intensity rather than duration.
You have added CO2 and all the nutrients (just check, they are N, P, K, Mg, Ca, Fe, and micro-nutrients Cl,Si, S, Mo, Mn, Cu, Co, Zn, B, (Ni)) <Soil - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia>).
I always run a 12 hour day, whatever light I have, and just add plant biomass until the tank is stable.
cheers Darrel
Yes, that's a good plan. Also, as a temporary measure, you can cover the top of tank with acrylic or glass which will retain the gas more and will reduce the loss.
Cheers,
hi Zanguli, i have 78w over my 250l at a height of at least 30cm above the water surface. 8hr photoperiod.
Some of my plants at the substrate are heavily shaded and still grow, admittedly they are dark green mosses and pelias, but my staurogyne although not rapid is growing and green. I dont think light is your issue, like Clive says, structural failure is lack of c02.
I also have very soft water and struggle to get enough c02 in, i have chosen my plants to suit so i can have a little wriggle room regards flora and fauna. Its just too stressful for me to have too much light and demanding plants. As soon as i use higher light i struggle to get the balance for healthy plants and happy fish, distribution is then the key and it must be spot on to succeed.
Just pump lots of c02 in while you can and see what happens.
Good luck mate, dont give up!
Cheerio,
Ady.
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zanguli-ya-zamba
Seedling
Hi mate
how are you ?
thanks for your support !!
Since friday I have crank up the CO2, the only problem is the UP AQUA atomizer, when I want to pump big amount of CO2, instead of having a huge mist, I have a lot of big bubbles and medium bubbles. In this configuration the drop of ph is slower than when I have a medium injection rate of CO2. The other problem is that I can't get under 3,9 ph even when I inject way more CO2.
I have a ceramic diffuser of 5cm diameter and I am starting to think that I will have better result with it. what do you think about this ?
The UP AQUA is not faulty I have buy 3 of them and they all act the same way, even if I clean them.
This diatomic algae is starting to kill me, I am battling with it since more than a year in each tank.
I am a bit in a hurry I will ask some more help later lol
Cheers mate
Hi mate,
I'm good thanks 🙂
yeah I'd try the larger diffuser and see how it performs, more mist is best as you've found as opposed to larger bubbles which find their way out of the water easier. Seems like the up aqua reaches its maximum output before you get the desired injection rate.
Give it a go and monitor ph.
Cheerio
Ady
I'm good thanks 🙂
yeah I'd try the larger diffuser and see how it performs, more mist is best as you've found as opposed to larger bubbles which find their way out of the water easier. Seems like the up aqua reaches its maximum output before you get the desired injection rate.
Give it a go and monitor ph.
Cheerio
Ady
zanguli-ya-zamba
Seedling
Hi Clive,
I am trying to max out my CO2, but the up atomizer is giving me head hack, at a certain pressure it starts outputting only big and medium bubble, and that's inefficient !!
I have two solution to that :
- As I told Ady, I have a 5cm ceramic disc that is doing nothing. But it is a cheap one ! Maybe I can have a better result with it because even if injection rate is high I can pump more than with the UP aqua, as I know it from previous "test".
If I go with this configuration, the idea is to take out the NA steel flow that is 16mm and replace it with the FX5 original tubing 25mm like that I will have less velocity but more mass flow and turn over. Do you think it would help also ?
- For the second solution, I have a Fluval 305 filter (900 L/H) and a up aqua that I was using in my 90 L tank, that is now empty. I can instal it and have two filter with two UP aqua running. The first one would be positioned in the front left corner, and the second one in the back right corner.
The only problem will be that I will have two filter, and two CO2 FE in the cabinet, taking a lot of space.
So what do you think master about the two configuration ?
For the ph profile I am facing a small problem, my calibration fluid are now very old, and I broke the glass of the 4 ph solution. So I don't have any more calibration fluid only a very small amount of 7 ph fluid 🙁 .
Ok light is not an issue as i understand, but I wanted to check hoppy's chart again, and I am in the good zone with only two bulbs on at that height.
tank is : 20"
light at : 7"
So by looking at this chart I am above the curve almost at the zero line (I will put the chart with my phone)
If you look also at the table (I will put it after) I am between the nothing and the low range.
But I don't realy care I know by you guys (Ady and Clive) that I have sufficient light, and that it is 100% a CO2 issue so the solution of my problem is above, but I will still put you the charts.
I have an echinodorus in that tank, the new sprout are coming out red, than the leaves grows and stay red/brown, and when it reach a very good size, you can see that the leave is very thin and not in good shape, I am sure you will tell me it's CO2 related lol.
What should I do for the diatomic algae that is covering every thing ?
cheers guys
I will not give up !!! 😡😡
Hi Thomas,
Sorry you\re still having issues with this. I\m surprised that the Up is not performing. Could it be just dirty and in need of cleaning? I like to keep things simple, so I would start with the FX5 option and pump the gas into to the inlet, It sounds like you may have distribution problem but I haven't seen an image of how that is set up. Is it just a single outlet pipe with no spraybar? I'm a little unclear on that.
As I mentioned earlier, if your T5 bulb is 27 inches (70cm) above the substrate then on Hoppy's chart that gives you around 25 micromoles per bulb. If you have two bulbs then that is 50 micromoles at the substrate, so there is nothing wrong with that.
Are the bulbs on a timer, and are you certain the timer is working properly? Sometimes they turn on by themselves at night when there is no CO2.
Cheers,
Sorry you\re still having issues with this. I\m surprised that the Up is not performing. Could it be just dirty and in need of cleaning? I like to keep things simple, so I would start with the FX5 option and pump the gas into to the inlet, It sounds like you may have distribution problem but I haven't seen an image of how that is set up. Is it just a single outlet pipe with no spraybar? I'm a little unclear on that.
As I mentioned earlier, if your T5 bulb is 27 inches (70cm) above the substrate then on Hoppy's chart that gives you around 25 micromoles per bulb. If you have two bulbs then that is 50 micromoles at the substrate, so there is nothing wrong with that.
Are the bulbs on a timer, and are you certain the timer is working properly? Sometimes they turn on by themselves at night when there is no CO2.
Cheers,
zanguli-ya-zamba
Seedling
Hi Clive,
thanks for our reply.
I have already tried to put the CO2 tubbing in the inlet filter, but result is not good. With the high amount of CO2 that I pump the result is that I got a CO2 buid up at the top of the filter and every 10 or 15 min there is a huge blast of big CO2 bubbles coming out the filter outlet. So there is a waste of CO2 and it is not dissolving well, even if I increase the flow power.
It is a single outlet that is pointing to the right face of the tank. I can clearly see that flow goes around the tank and every where. The plants that have CO2 issue are the one that are near the right face of the tank, so where distribution and flow must be the best 😕. The filter is working at only 1/4 of capacity, above that I have too much pressure on the flow (like it was in the previous scape).
The bulbs are on timer and the lights are on from 7 pm to 2 am. I have already been at home during day they don't turn on. I have have also check during night (when I come back from pub or club lol) and nerver turned on.
So regarding my answer to your solution, that is "not working" for me, would you consider one of the two solutions I put before ?
cheers master
thanks for our reply.
I have already tried to put the CO2 tubbing in the inlet filter, but result is not good. With the high amount of CO2 that I pump the result is that I got a CO2 buid up at the top of the filter and every 10 or 15 min there is a huge blast of big CO2 bubbles coming out the filter outlet. So there is a waste of CO2 and it is not dissolving well, even if I increase the flow power.
It is a single outlet that is pointing to the right face of the tank. I can clearly see that flow goes around the tank and every where. The plants that have CO2 issue are the one that are near the right face of the tank, so where distribution and flow must be the best 😕. The filter is working at only 1/4 of capacity, above that I have too much pressure on the flow (like it was in the previous scape).
The bulbs are on timer and the lights are on from 7 pm to 2 am. I have already been at home during day they don't turn on. I have have also check during night (when I come back from pub or club lol) and nerver turned on.
So regarding my answer to your solution, that is "not working" for me, would you consider one of the two solutions I put before ?
cheers master
Thomas,
It's not a certainty that the far right edge of the tank has the best distribution. That'ss part of the problem when you send flow across that long axis of the tank, especially if the pump is only working at 25% power. You need more force to push the flow across the to the other side. Movement of the water where the tube is mounted pulls water along from the bottom, so it's entirely possible that there is better flow just below where the outlet pipe is mounted. That's generally why I have a preference to mount the outflow on the back wall, because the distance is shorter.
Also, what media do you have in the filter? Stronger flow should do a better job of dissolving the gas, not just trapping it and burping it. Anyway there is something a little strange about this.
There is something about your distribution that is not right. I really don't like the idea of pointing two outflows against each other as you mentioned in option 2. If they are both on the same side then that makes better sense to me.
Cheers,
It's not a certainty that the far right edge of the tank has the best distribution. That'ss part of the problem when you send flow across that long axis of the tank, especially if the pump is only working at 25% power. You need more force to push the flow across the to the other side. Movement of the water where the tube is mounted pulls water along from the bottom, so it's entirely possible that there is better flow just below where the outlet pipe is mounted. That's generally why I have a preference to mount the outflow on the back wall, because the distance is shorter.
Also, what media do you have in the filter? Stronger flow should do a better job of dissolving the gas, not just trapping it and burping it. Anyway there is something a little strange about this.
There is something about your distribution that is not right. I really don't like the idea of pointing two outflows against each other as you mentioned in option 2. If they are both on the same side then that makes better sense to me.
Cheers,
