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Practical application of lean fertilizer dosing

The greatest lessons in life are those we learn the hard way.

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The claim for these methods is that high light, low nutrients, and low CO2 can work. I don't dispute that. Sudipta's tank is an excellent example.

But meanwhile in my reality where I talk to a wide range of people in the hobby, for about 95% of the people, high light + low ferts + low CO2 = unhappy plants and algae. I can say that pretty confidently as I have seen it too many times to count. And it happens even more often now that so many LED fixtures are capable of huge amounts of PAR. In most cases lowering light, increasing nutrients, and optimizing CO2 makes things one heck of a lot easier.
Now where's the fun in that, @GreggZ ?

I agree that high light, low ferts, no supplemental or poorly optimized CO2 is the highway to hell for people just staring out. But I've done the conventional low tech tank. Now I have reason to believe more is possible (without CO2), I have to investigate more. I am ambivalent about how low ferts specifically fit in to the picture, but I don't dose N and P myself because I've never needed to.

Also related to an earlier part of this thread I think I mentioned on TPT that my pH was pretty uniform throughout the day and I just gave up on wondering why. Um, apparently I haven't checked my pH in like a year and a half and lo and behold I have a ~0.4 drop now. I guess that my substrate microbiome is mature now while initially it wasn't?
 
Green Aqua don't used remineralised RO water, a shop with air con set at 22 degrees and one person doing WCs all week for nothing. Best tanks I have ever seen.
I think green aqua do use RO water!
 
"GREEN AQUA WATER PARAMETERS - We use Reverse Osmosis (RO) water, as the Hungarian tap water is really hard. (Around GH 24). Remineralize it with Green Aqua Mineral GH Plus to raise the TDS (Total Dissolved Solids value) to 120 (corresponds to GH 3). Our real values are between TDS 110-160 at times. "

from a green aqua youtube video description

https ://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pnUbjHr7jbU
(deliberate space after " https" because of massive link)
 
"GREEN AQUA WATER PARAMETERS - We use Reverse Osmosis (RO) water, as the Hungarian tap water is really hard. (Around GH 24). Remineralize it with Green Aqua Mineral GH Plus to raise the TDS (Total Dissolved Solids value) to 120 (corresponds to GH 3). Our real values are between TDS 110-160 at times. "

from a green aqua youtube video description

https ://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pnUbjHr7jbU
(deliberate space after " https" because of massive link)
@Zeus. meant they don't do it for nothing, as in they do it for reasons.
 
There is a lot of emphasis on temperature.

In my books, temp is a tool.
Well I think the only one or one of the only ones emphasising temp in this thread is me 😅 so not so much at the end of the day. Yes temp is a tool and should be used in our favor. I don't use a chiller and can live with it but I know a chiller would provide me more control. Mind you, we are speaking only 24/25C degrees here, not cooling the tank at 5C.
25C degrees is what you see in many natural habitats. Sometimes even lower. Sometimes more.

But it’s cold … . Why not introduce natural temp fluctuations where at night it’s colder and during the day it’s warmer? If we think about the system, this makes a whole lot of sense.

Are we worried about plant forms? tightening up internodes? Ya low temp reduce metabolism and decrease demand on everything increasing the likelihood that the plant will be “willing to tighten up since current conditions are favourable”.
Tank temperatures fluctuates far more rapidly than in nature due to sheer size. A couple degrees up and down can be observed in short time spam. The smaller the tank the faster the fluctuations. In nature temps do no fluctuate like that and when they do it's really a constant thing. They are smooth out during the day/night. In a house, specially in tropical countries your tank water could reach 35C or more depending its position in the etc. Then you come home and put the air con etc etc. Could you grow plants? Some perhaps, but certainly not 25++ SP all from very different parts of the world with very different requirements.
 
But meanwhile in my reality where I talk to a wide range of people in the hobby, for about 95% of the people, high light + low ferts + low CO2 = unhappy plants and algae.
Hello Gregg,
Out of those 95% people, how many do you think have ALL of these points covered?

1. Have 0 dKH water - Any measurable amount of KH would mean the equilibrium is towards bicarbonate and not towards dissolved CO2/H2CO3. As far as I know, not even a single plant would prefer HCO3- if there is available CO2.

2. Using commercial aquasoil (not inert gravel or/and substrates heavily rich in organic matter such as potting mix).

3. Low temperature around 70-74 F.

4. Good filtration with decent surface agitation and water circulation throughout the tank.

5. Have heavily planted tanks (primarily with decent number of fast growing stems but don't frequently uproot them).

6. Regularly maintain their tanks like you @GreggZ

7. Don't use pressurized CO2 - It is far easy to maintain stable levels of CO2 if the injection rate is high compared to maintain low and stable levels of CO2 using a pressurized CO2 injection system.


I have mentioned this before that my non-CO2 supplemented tanks are not technically low-tech. They are actually high-tech without pressurized CO2 injection, no frequent uprooting, relatively easy to maintain for longer periods of time as plants grow slowly. It usually takes me less than 30 minutes for weekly water change and glass/substrate cleaning for the 20 gal tank except when I trim the plants and/or clean the filter (usually once a month).
 
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Also related to an earlier part of this thread I think I mentioned on TPT that my pH was pretty uniform throughout the day and I just gave up on wondering why. Um, apparently I haven't checked my pH in like a year and a half and lo and behold I have a ~0.4 drop now. I guess that my substrate microbiome is mature now while initially it wasn't?
Now this is very interesting. I think there is something to what you, myself, and others have experienced.
 
@GreggZ - Yeah, I was not expecting it at all. The reason I quit checking for it so long ago is that I expected the highest CO2 production in the life of the tank to be in the first few months when the soil was fresh. IIRC that's pretty foundational to Walstad's method where it's presented as a window to get your plants established for the long term. To see that actually it's better 2 years later is a welcome surprise - I thought I missed my opportunity and that was that.

I wish I knew how long that has been going on and if it coincided with when the tank finally balanced and the algae disappeared. @Sudipta, has your tank always had a pH drop, or did that develop over time?
 
@GreggZ - Yeah, I was not expecting it at all. The reason I quit checking for it so long ago is that I expected the highest CO2 production in the life of the tank to be in the first few months when the soil was fresh. IIRC that's pretty foundational to Walstad's method where it's presented as a window to get your plants established for the long term. To see that actually it's better 2 years later is a welcome surprise - I thought I missed my opportunity and that was that.

I wish I knew how long that has been going on and if it coincided with when the tank finally balanced and the algae disappeared. @Sudipta, has your tank always had a pH drop, or did that develop over time?
I was not monitoring the pH in my 20 gal tank for almost 11 months after I setup the tank. However, I did notice pH drop (when I checked pH after 11 months) before the lights turn on.
I did check the pH of my 5 gal shallow tank when it was 2.5 months old and I noticed pH fluctuations as you can see below, low pH before the lights turned on, high pH after lights turned on as most of the available CO2 was consumed by photosynthesis.


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Hi all,
laboratory constructed mutants of nitrogenase is capable of reducing nitrate all the way to ammonia.
Nobody can predict what type of microbial community will develop in individual tank. There are so many variables and microbes literally communicate with each other through quorum sensing (watch the TED talk link I posted yesterday)
My guess is that the more people look for factors like microbial diversity, and novel biochemical pathways, the more they will find them. Unfortunately for me biochemistry, microbiology and animal physiology are areas where I don't have any scientific background and have only picked up little snippets of knowledge.
I noticed pH fluctuations as you can see below, low pH before the lights turned on, high pH after lights turned on as most of the available CO2 was consumed by photosynthesis.
Yes, that is pretty universal in planted systems, <"natural and unnatural">, as well as having less CO2 you have <"more dissolved O2">.

cheers Darrel
 
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Thanks. Noted on the requirement for "intense light" to promote a red colouration. :cool: And GH/KH <1....

I'm interested in getting a copy. The only way to order this book is to go to Christel's website and e-mail her?
 
Thanks. Noted on the requirement for "intense light" to promote a red colouration. :cool: And GH/KH <1....

I'm interested in getting a copy. The only way to order this book is to go to Christel's website and e-mail her?
Yes that's the only way. That's how I did it. Payment through Paypal.
 
I was not monitoring the pH in my 20 gal tank for almost 11 months after I setup the tank. However, I did notice pH drop (when I checked pH after 11 months) before the lights turn on.
I did check the pH of my 5 gal shallow tank when it was 2.5 months old and I noticed pH fluctuations as you can see below, low pH before the lights turned on, high pH after lights turned on as most of the available CO2 was consumed by photosynthesis.


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have you considered a siesta period so that co2 can accumulate again, perhaps a couple hours in the middle of the photoperiod?
 
Hello Gregg,
Out of those 95% people, how many do you think have ALL of these points covered?
Not many. And that is the point. You have to have a LOT of things dialed in just so to make it work.

And I think you know me well enough to know that my comment about the 95% is not stated as an argument, but rather an observation based on interactions with others over many years.
 
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