Practical application of lean fertilizer dosing

[Sudipta]

Since this thread is filled with bunches of different topics, I might as well add another one. And it may have to do microbes.

Sudipta do you remember when T. Barr got involved in our conversation and he thought for sure you were injecting CO2? Well this has crossed my mind based on an event in my own tank we have not discussed.

A short time ago due to a equipment malfunction I went for 10 days with no CO2 in my tank. Other than turning my lights down I didn't change anything. I was shocked at how well the tank did. I looked at it as a learning opportunity and monitored everything very closely.

A couple of things caught my eye. Number one with the T5HO's turned down tank temp came down to 71*. Next is how pH changed daily. Fully degassed in the tank is 6.25. I closely monitored pH and it dropped from 6.25 at night right before lights off to 5.85 right before lights on. This happened every day like clockwork.

So a 0.4 pH drop overnight. No CO2 being added.

Have you ever monitored your pH at various times of the day? Your plants need some carbon, and is it possible the tank is generating some?

Hahahaha, It seems like you have forgotten. 😂😂. This is not unexpected as the CO2 accumulates from root respiration, livestock respiration and from microbial respiration because plants are not photosynthesizing.

 

[GreggZ]

Hahahaha, It seems like you have forgotten. 😂😂. This is not unexpected as the CO2 accumulates from root respiration, livestock respiration and from microbial respiration because plants are not photosynthesizing.

View attachment 186734

Ha I did forget!!! I think this is a very interesting topic and may have something to do with your success. Honestly I would have hardly believed there could be such swings until I experienced it myself. I am guessing the lower the temperature the more the pH swing, due to greater solubility of gasses.

 

[Hanuman]

As I have said multiple times, temperature is something that is VERY often overlooked but it's perhaps one of the parameters that can dictate nigh and days situations. If Sudipta was in a tropical country without a chiller/aircon/season to control his tank temp he would have never been able to have that tank.
Here in Thailand either you have an air con, or a chiller or you can forget growing tricky/large variety of plants no matter how perfect your parameters are. It's just how it is.
In my case I can see the differences between cool and hot days how the plants pearl. During cooler days pearling will increase. Hotter days, decrease. PH will also drop less during hotter days. 2 to 3 degrees C will make the difference.

 

[Sudipta]

As I have said multiple times, temperature is something that is VERY often overlooked but it's perhaps one of the parameters that can dictate nigh and days situations. If Sudipta was in a tropical country without a chiller/aircon/season to control his tank temp he would have never been able to have that tank.
Here in Thailand either you have an air con, or a chiller or you can forget growing tricky/large variety of plants no matter how perfect your parameters are. It's just how it is.
In my case I can see the differences between cool and hot days how the plants pearl. During cooler days pearling will increase. Hotter days, decrease. PH will also drop less during hotter days. 2 to 3 degrees C will make the difference.

Hello @Hanuman
I completely agree with you regarding the importance of lower temperature in non-CO2 injected tanks. I have also said that multiple times in various platforms. However, I do think that it might be possible to run a non-CO2 planted tank in warm conditions if frequent water changes are done (doesn't need to be large quantities of water). You can read my response #260. I might test this soon.
Post in thread 'Practical application of lean fertilizer dosing' Practical application of lean fertilizer dosing

 

[Hanuman]

I completely agree with you regarding the importance of lower temperature in non-CO2 injected tanks. I have also said that multiple times in various platforms. However, I do think that it might be possible to run a non-CO2 planted tank in warm conditions if frequent water changes are done (doesn't need to be large quantities of water). You can read my response #260. I might test this soon.

Running non-co2 tanks in warm conditions is a non-issue. The issue would be what plants and for how long and also what you define as "warm". Above or below 30c? My tanks hoover around 27-29C but I have air con nearly every day that bring temps to 27 during a 1/3 part of the day. I pump CO2 in there like there is no tomorrow.

Mind you that's a 6mm tube.

I have been away for 4 days from home now. Considering the weather I am pretty sure the temps of my tanks probably reached the 30Cs if not more. I can tell you with a good degree of certainty that when I get back home in 2 days the glass will have a fair amount of algae. If my tank was non-co2 it would probably be much worse considering some of the plants I have are not so keen on higher temps and require CO2 else bye bye. So I would say all is possible but then it's a matter of diminishing returns and diminishing options.

My outdoor ceramic pond probably hoovers at 32, maybe more? That pond has got some anubias, ferns, echinodorus and some other pretty harddy plants. I use my main tank WC water and add that to the pond every week. Once in a while I will do a 50% WC with RO to bring TDS down. So basically that pond is EI with no-CO2. Light I would say overall medium as the pond is shadowed most of the day. Plants are fine. I have some hair algae in there, but no biggy I don't care. If I put any plant with BBA in there, BBA will disappear completely. But pay attention to the plants I mentioned. Pretty difficult plants to kill. Put a L. Pantanal, some E. Quin or other plants I got in my main tank and they would died instantly.

 

[Sudipta]

Running non-co2 tanks in warm conditions is a non-issue. The issue would be what plants and for how long and also what you define as "warm". Above or below 30c? My tanks hoover around 27-29C but I have air con nearly every day that bring temps to 27 during a 1/3 part of the day. I pump CO2 in there like there is no tomorrow.

Mind you that's a 6mm tube.

I have been away for 4 days from home now. Considering the weather I am pretty sure the temps of my tanks probably reached the 30Cs if not more. I can tell you with a good degree of certainty that when I get back home in 2 days the glass will have a fair amount of algae. If my tank was non-co2 it would probably be much worse considering some of the plants I have are not so keen on higher temps and require CO2 else bye bye. So I would say all is possible but then it's a matter of diminishing returns and diminishing options.

My outdoor ceramic pond probably hoovers at 32, maybe more? That pond has got some anubias, ferns, echinodorus and some other pretty harddy plants. I use my main tank WC water and add that to the pond every week. Once in a while I will do a 50% WC with RO to bring TDS down. So basically that pond is EI with no-CO2. Light I would say overall medium as the pond is shadowed most of the day. Plants are fine. I have some hair algae in there, but no biggy I don't care. If I put any plant with BBA in there, BBA will disappear completely. But pay attention to the plants I mentioned. Pretty difficult plants to kill. Put a L. Pantanal, some E. Quin or other plants I got in my main tank and they would died instantly.

View attachment 186736

Those are all valid points and I agree with most of them. However, I don't think that you have read my other post where I mentioned the results after 3 weeks at 84F (almost 29 C). Yes I agree it was only for 3 weeks but still a decent amount of time to show some adverse effects on plants. All I am saying that there is a possibility of having a decent non-CO2 tank with some of the difficult plants (Ludwigia Pantanal included). Pantanal is a warm region and this plant grows in the wild.
Keeping Eriocaulon quinquangulare is a different issue, I even said yesterday that I couldn't grow this plant in any of my non-CO2 tanks even at 70F, so it is not about the temperature for this plant. I think it's CO2 uptake system is pretty crappy (I am not absolutely sure about this though, I will try to find more information about it).

 

[Sudipta]

These two images were made on 08222020 and 08232020. Although this is not terribly high temperature (about 79F/26C) but I was able to see some noticeable differences in plant growth form and colors (It might not be too obvious from the photo).
I also wanted to show that the tank was relatively algae free (I was doing regular maintenance of this tank).

 

[Hanuman]

Pantanal is a warm region and this plant grows in the wild.

Sorry but that's a big shortcut you are making. Those temps are air temperatures right? Still plenty of CO2 to go around and you can't compare 32C air to 32C water.

Eriocaulon quinquangulare is a different issue, I even said yesterday that I couldn't grow this plant in any of my non-CO2 tanks even at 70F, so it is not about the temperature for this plant. I think it's CO2 uptake system is pretty crappy (I am not absolutely sure about this though, I will try to find more information about it).

Yes and no. What happens when temp increase in water? No more CO2 or very little. So yes not technically directly a temp issue but both are correlated. As far as I am aware E. Quin in Thailand grows in the north where there is cooler weather and is not found anywhere else in the country, but I know that it can grow in slightly hotter areas in India and Australia and in the SEA region overall. So maybe sub-species? I don't know. Erios in general are CO2 hogs and do poorly if they don't have their share. They also need at least medium to high light. They don't do well with lower lights.

My point is that yes you can do a non-Co2 tank with higher temps and some "hard to grow plants". I only took 2 examples, but it applies to other plants as well. The higher up in temps you go the less options you have and things get much more difficult to control. Go to 24/25 your options are much greater.

 

[Sudipta]

I made a quick video of all 4 of my non-CO2 supplemented softwater tanks. I tried to show some closeups where you can see slight algae on some plants.
I just want to remind everyone that I do have a 20 gal high-tech tank along with two more nano tanks (low-tech, tap water tanks, one has been severely neglected for several months now and I have to deal with the algae). I don't get enough time to focus on one particular tank. This is one of the biggest reasons why I struggle with some of my tanks occasionally.

 

[MichaelJ]

@Hanuman and @Sudipta ,

You guys probably know this, but I thought it would be helpful for reference when discussing the CO2 solubility vs. Temperature relationship:

(101.325 kPa is normal atmospheric pressure).





Cheers,
Michael

 

[erwin123]

These two images were made on 08222020 and 08232020. Although this is not terribly high temperature (about 79F/26C) but I was able to see some noticeable differences in plant growth form and colors (It might not be too obvious from the photo).
I also wanted to show that the tank was relatively algae free (I was doing regular maintenance of this tank).

Hi, I notice that that the first photo has a fan above the tank. When you say 26C, you are referring to the air/ambient temp being 26C, plus you have a fan pointed at the tank?

Reason being that fans can cool the water by 1-2 degrees through evaporative cooling, especially in dry climates, in which case, your tank temp is effectively below 26C?

 

[Sudipta]

Sorry but that's a big shortcut you are making. Those temps are air temperatures right? Still plenty of CO2 to go around and you can't compare 32C air to 32C water.

Here is what I found from Christel Kasselmann's book (older edition). Water temperature between 27.5 - 30C and inclinata varieties are still growing. I need to get the new edition now. I am not trying to argue with you regarding this matter. I have been purfying and characterizing enzymes from bacteria for the last 10 years. I do have little bit of knowledge how temperature affects enzyme activities (this property is universal among all life forms on earth).

 

[Hanuman]

Here is what I found from Christel Kasselmann's book (older edition). Water temperature between 27.5 - 30C and inclinata varieties are still growing. I need to get the new edition now. I am not trying to argue with you regarding this matter. I have been purfying and characterizing enzymes from bacteria for the last 10 years. I do have little bit of knowledge how temperature affects enzyme activities (this property is universal among all life forms on earth).

Not arguing either. You probably know much more than I when it comes to biology. I only have a business degree so my knowledge is only what I have acquired through the years and self thought. My point being that the higher you go in temperatures the less amount of species you'll be able to keep at peak form and the more work you have to put into keeping a tank in top shape. You said it yourself, you noticed that multiple water changes were beneficial during summer time. Also if you notice the author mentions that that specie in particular prefers fast flowing water and grew in loam substrate. This means constant new water with perhaps a constant CO2 content? Note this part about keeping that plant alive in culture. This is most probably not related to temperatures but proves that in a close environment plant don't necessarily behave like in their natural habitat which is 10 fold more complex.

I'll look at the book when I get home. I have the new edition.

Too bad I don't live in my home country anymore, Venezuela. A small expedition to the jungle would have been a must!!!

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

Also, if you have livestock from the Amazon river, why in Mothers Natures name would you run your tank at 250 ppm TDS if 50 ppm.

That was one reason I had for wanting a relatively low conductivity value.

Don't get me wrong, I am not saying it is not important but I strongly disagree that it needs to be this much complicated where people discuss whether 0.01 or 0.02 ppm is ideal concentration for a certain element.

Same for me, it is the <"some or none"> argument.

cheers Darrel

 

[erwin123]

I'm wondering whether the conversation can turn towards the plants and whether there are actually 'target dosing ranges' for plants to help them achieve their best 'form' and whether different species have different targets.
Like MichaelJ who has indicated that his interest in this thread is because he wants to grow certain specific plants, I am also interested in this discussion because I'm interested in growing certain plants that I have trouble with.

For example, Pantanal/Meta - I'm not sure how to make more of the leaves turn red, and not just the new growth on top. I'm already blasting my plants with a lot of light, and CO2 is plentiful with a 1.3pH drop. How to turn more of the plant's leaves red? I have a similar question regarding the lower leaves of Ludwigia Senegalensis. My temps are high-ish at 25.5-26C - does that affect plant colouration, etc?

 

[Hanuman]

I'm wondering whether the conversation can turn towards the plants and whether there are actually 'target dosing ranges' for plants to help them achieve their best 'form' and whether different species have different targets.
Like MichaelJ who has indicated that his interest in this thread is because he wants to grow certain specific plants, I am also interested in this discussion because I'm interested in growing certain plants that I have trouble with.

For example, Pantanal/Meta - I'm not sure how to make more of the leaves turn red, and not just the new growth on top. I'm already blasting my plants with a lot of light, and CO2 is plentiful with a 1.3pH drop. How to turn more of the plant's leaves red? I have a similar question regarding the lower leaves of Ludwigia Senegalensis. My temps are high-ish at 25.5-26C - does that affect plant colouration, etc?

By limiting nitrate in water column you will turn plants redder but substrate need to have its fair share of it. That’s the actual purpose of APT complete.

 

[Guest]

Or an article on tank cycling and the role of archaea vs bacteria...😁 Although this one already posted by @Sudipta is very accessible

Archaea in Aquaria: Tiny Organisms, Huge Discovery

We thought we knew everything about the nitrogen cycle. We were wrong.

aquariumkids.org

Whilst we're on the subject, I absolutely agree with Sudipta, the microorganism communities in our tanks play a major role in their health and are probably the main reason why mature tanks can become incredibly stable and robust. And why plants continue to thrive with minimal fertz, and CO2 input and sometimes neglect.

 

[Sudipta]

This is most probably not related to temperatures but proves that in a close environment plant don't necessarily behave like in their natural habitat which is 10 fold more complex.

That's exactly what I am trying to say. Temperature is just one of the factors. Fast flowing river water contains a lot of organics (particulate and dissolved). There are several scientific papers showing the importance of those organics when it comes to supporting aquatic plant life (primarily production of CO2, maintaining decent oxygen levels, possibly continuous supply of most nutrients needed by plants etc.).
Even though the tds is low but the water is extremely rich in those organics.

 

[Sudipta]

I'll look at the book when I get home. I have the new edition.

This will be great. I would love to know if there are some new information about these rich habitats.

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

whether there are actually 'target dosing ranges' for plants to help them achieve their best 'form' and whether different species have different targets.

<"Unequivocally they will">. It is back to <"Tomatoes and Orchids">.

Ask Darrel he is an expert in recycling old posts

Uh um, I beg your pardon, surely you mean "Carefully curating pre-loved material".

We need to get him to do a top 50 for the beginners and a top 50 for the advanced!!

It is not going to work, as I' said a while a go I haven't made <"thirteen thousand posts">, I've made the same three posts recycled ("carefully curated") <"four thousand times each">. If I was a busker I'd only have one song and <"I wouldn't be very good at that">.

It is one of the many reasons I couldn't have a <"YouTube channel">, after two episodes in I'd have run out of content.

Whilst we're on the subject, I absolutely agree with Sudipta, the microorganism communities in our tanks play a major role in their health and are probably the main reason why mature tanks can become incredibly stable and robust. And why plants continue to thrive with minimal fertz, and CO2 input and sometimes neglect.

That is a view I subscribe to as well, and I thank <"Cory for the Aquarium Co-Op"> for <"posting on this subject">, because it takes a lot of guts to say what he said, because you know you are going to be <"trolled mercilessly">.

Although this one already posted by @Sudipta is very accessible

Archaea in Aquaria: Tiny Organisms, Huge Discovery

We thought we knew everything about the nitrogen cycle. We were wrong.

aquariumkids.org

Thanks to @Sudipta , that is a good one. A remember the first time I read about <"novel ammonia oxidising microorganisms"> (Archaea, COMAMMOX Nitrospira etc) in aquarium filters, it was a like finding the Plec you hadn't seen for three years was both still alive, (and looking very healthy), and your football team winning the league all in one (damascene) moment, I was pretty sure I was right about cycling, but until then I didn't have any science to back it up with.

There are several scientific papers showing the importance of those organics when it comes to supporting aquatic plant life (primarily production of CO2, maintaining decent oxygen levels, possibly continuous supply of most nutrients needed by plants etc.).
Even though the tds is low but the water is extremely rich in those organics.

<"Same again">. I've linked it in lots of times, but <"All the leaves are brown"> is well worth a read.

cheers Darrel