Practical application of lean fertilizer dosing

[Kerrycarp]

In my experience no one on this forum would think you have failed just because you lack the skills or knowledge.
A journal would show where your shortcomings are and most people here are only to happy to share their knowledge and skills as they don't want you to fail.
The people on this forum are coming along with you on your ride. They will experience the same joy (and heartache) as you do.
You will not be criticised but helped so that your own knowledge develops.

 

[Guest]

journals are very tricky things to do especially if one fails then some ppl think you just lack skill

That’s a pretty jaundice view of the UKAPS team and other members. Quite the contrary, Journals are often the best place to get constructive feedback and help when things don’t go according to plan for various reasons. Not least the history is there to reference for solutions. I’ve documented more than a few disasters in warts ‘n’ all journals; nobody criticised me for lack of skill.

As for your other question, don’t you think it’s a little disingenuous?

 

[erwin123]

just curious - as a mod do you prefer lots of traffic talking about the same ole or less of both?
journals are very tricky things to do especially if one fails then some ppl think you just lack skill

My journal is as much for my reference as for others to learn from my mistakes. I try to post a photo every week, good or bad, and since algae doesn't really bother me, you'll see lots of algae in my journal photos. When it comes to algae farming, I definitely don't lack skill 😎

 

[Zeus.]

'Do or do not, there is no try'- believe it or not this quote form empire strikes back help me to get my degree. I believed it was possible first, the rest was down to 'grit'

 

[Sudipta]

All 4 of my non-CO2 supplemented softwater tanks, today's images.

Tank 1 - 20 gal; setup date - June 16, 2019. Notice the green dust algae on the left wall.

Tank 2 - 10 gal; setup date - Jan 4, 2020.

Tank 3 - 4 gal; setup date - Mar 1, 2021.

Tank 4 - 5 gal shallow; setup date - Oct 16, 2021.

 

[Wookii]

All 4 of my non-CO2 supplemented softwater tanks, today's images.

Tank 1 - 20 gal; setup date - June 16, 2019. Notice the green dust algae on the left wall.

Tank 2 - 10 gal; setup date - Jan 4, 2020.

Tank 3 - 4 gal; setup date - Mar 1, 2021.

Tank 4 - 5 gal shallow; setup date - Oct 16, 2021.

View attachment 187204
View attachment 187205

View attachment 187206

View attachment 187207

Beautiful tanks - and even more incredible that you appear to be running them each with just a small HOB filter for each one, is that correct? If so, only minimal gas exchange and distribution.

May I ask what your lighting is on each of these tanks (light brand/model if known, wattage and setting level if dimmed)?

 

[MichaelJ]

Beautiful tanks - and even more incredible that you appear to be running them each with just a small HOB filter for each one, is that correct? If so, only minimal gas exchange and distribution.

May I ask what your lighting is on each of these tanks (light brand/model if known, wattage and setting level if dimmed)?

Hi @Sudipta , like @Wookii , I would definitely also like to know more about the lights you are using as well - the setup etc.. I think I might want to switch my lights in my lean-experiment tank.

Also tell us about the HOBs... what brand/model is it ?

Stunning tanks! 🙂

Also, I am thinking about potting my stems into ADA Amazonia soil - although my stems are still doing fairly well, I don't think my inert but mature substrate is going to cut it in the longer run. Big unknown.

Cheers,
Michael

 

[Sudipta]

Beautiful tanks - and even more incredible that you appear to be running them each with just a small HOB filter for each one, is that correct? If so, only minimal gas exchange and distribution.

May I ask what your lighting is on each of these tanks (light brand/model if known, wattage and setting level if dimmed)?

Hi @Sudipta , like @Wookii , I would definitely also like to know more about the lights you are using as well - the setup etc.. I think I might want to switch my lights in my lean-experiment tank.

Also tell us about the HOBs... what brand/model is it ?

Stunning tanks! 🙂

Also, I am thinking about potting my stems into ADA Amazonia soil - although my stems are still doing fairly well, I don't think my inert but mature substrate is going to cut it in the longer run. Big unknown.

Cheers,
Michael

Thank you @Wookii and @MichaelJ
Here are the details:

Tank 1 (20 gallons)
Filter - Aquaclear 70 (300 gph max) - set at minimum flow rate (don't know the actual flow rate).
Light - Chihiros wrgb2 (60 cm, 67W) - 100% red, 50% green and 70% blue.

Tank 2 (10 gallons)
Filter - Aquaclear 30 (150 gph max) - set at minimum flow rate (don't know the actual flow rate).
Light - Chihiros rgb Aplus (45 cm, 35W) - 100% red, 55% green and 80% blue.

Tank 3 (4 gallons)
Filter - Dymax slim flo 120 (120L/h or roughly 32 gph max) - set at maximum flow rate (don't know the actual flow rate).
Light - Chihiros wrgb2 (30 cm, 33W) - 75% red, 35% green and 55% blue.

Tank 4 (5 gallons)
Filter - Dymax slim flo 120 (120L/h or roughly 32 gph max) - set at maximum flow rate (don't know the actual flow rate).
Light - Chihiros rgb (60 cm, 50W), older model - Full intensity.

You can get an idea about water flow and surface agitation from this video (I posted earlier). Keep in mind that some of the filters were not cleaned for almsot 3 weeks when I made this video, particularly the 4 and 5 gallons tanks.

 

[plantnoobdude]

Thank you @Wookii and @MichaelJ
Here are the details:

Tank 1 (20 gallons)
Filter - Aquaclear 70 (300 gph max) - set at minimum flow rate (don't know the actual flow rate).
Light - Chihiros wrgb2 (60 cm, 67W) - 100% red, 50% green and 70% blue.

Tank 2 (10 gallons)
Filter - Aquaclear 30 (150 gph max) - set at minimum flow rate (don't know the actual flow rate).
Light - Chihiros rgb Aplus (45 cm, 35W) - 100% red, 55% green and 80% blue.

Tank 3 (4 gallons)
Filter - Dymax slim flo 120 (120L/h or roughly 32 gph max) - set at maximum flow rate (don't know the actual flow rate).
Light - Chihiros wrgb2 (30 cm, 33W) - 75% red, 35% green and 55% blue.

Tank 4 (5 gallons)
Filter - Dymax slim flo 120 (120L/h or roughly 32 gph max) - set at maximum flow rate (don't know the actual flow rate).
Light - Chihiros rgb (60 cm, 50W), older model - Full intensity.

You can get an idea about water flow and surface agitation from this video (I posted earlier). Keep in mind that some of the filters were not cleaned for almsot 3 weeks when I made this video, particularly the 4 and 5 gallons tanks.

Jeez, in my high tech I struggled around 80% lol. I'm gonna have to try and inch up the strength of the lights when I beat the algae in my tank. spirogyra... nasty stuff.
at your values you should have around 150~200 par according to @reefaddict chihiros par readings.

 

[MichaelJ]

Hi @Sudipta Thanks for the details! Even at minimum flow it doesn't look like your lacking circulation there - even at the substrate level I see leaves swaying... I think I might pull the trigger and get one of those Chihiros wrgb2.

Anyway, I have to stop over soon to check out your tanks! Can't wait! Absolutely stunning!


Cheers,
Michael

PS: Hey, 10 seconds in I see an Anubias with a yellow leaf and a leaf with some Green Spot Algae!? This tank clearly got CO2 and too much light issues

 

[erwin123]

I am wondering how to improve my tank photographs... the plants in Sudiptas photos are evenly illuminated

When I try to take photos, I find that plants that are nearer the water surface get more like and a 'brighter' while plants near the substrate are 'darker' This is despite the fact that I am using 2 x WRGB2 - one in front and one at the back of the tank, which should reduce the amount of shadows etc.

When taking photos, do you add extra lights to evenly illuminate all the plants? Can you share your photography techniques?

 

[Sudipta]

Jeez, in my high tech I struggled around 80% lol. I'm gonna have to try and inch up the strength of the lights when I beat the algae in my tank. spirogyra... nasty stuff.
at your values you should have around 150~200 par according to @reefaddict chihiros par readings.

@plantnoobdude these are some PAR measurements I did in early January this year.

Tank 1




Tank 2


Tank 3



Tank 4



Spirogyra is quite a stubborn algae. Tank 3 was pretty badly affected by spirogyra last summer (I was not doing regular water changes and tank maintenance). I tried to treat with excel and H2O2, it didn't work. I also lowered the light intensity but nothing happened. I even removed most of the badly affected plants along with doing all these chemical treatments and playing with light intensity, nothing worked for me. I finally tried API algaefix and it worked like magic, there was not even a single strand of spirogyra left after couple of weeks and it never returned back since then. I followed the guidelines on the bottle for dosing. I had some baby apistos in this tank and they were not affected by this treatment.

 

[Sudipta]

Even at minimum flow it doesn't look like your lacking circulation there - even at the substrate level I see leaves swaying...

Hello Michael,
Yes you are right. The flow and surface agitation in all my tanks are quite decent.

Anyway, I have to stop over soon to check out your tanks! Can't wait! Absolutely stunning!

Thanks 🙂. I guess then I have to hide all my CO2 cylinders. 🤣🤣

 

[Sudipta]

I am wondering how to improve my tank photographs... the plants in Sudiptas photos are evenly illuminated

When I try to take photos, I find that plants that are nearer the water surface get more like and a 'brighter' while plants near the substrate are 'darker' This is despite the fact that I am using 2 x WRGB2 - one in front and one at the back of the tank, which should reduce the amount of shadows etc.

When taking photos, do you add extra lights to evenly illuminate all the plants? Can you share your photography techniques?

Hello @erwin123
I use my cellphone camera most of the time when taking pictures of my tanks. I don't do anything special, no extra lights or whatsoever. I simply maintain some distance from the tank when taking pictures of the whole tank and try to angle (slightly up or down) the phone in such a way that the lights above the tank don't shine directly on the camera and change the exposure. This simple trick does the job for me.
You should also try to turn off other lights in the room, stray light from other sources will affect camera's auto exposure function.

 

[plantnoobdude]

@plantnoobdude these are some PAR measurements I did in early January this year.

Tank 1

View attachment 187347


Tank 2
View attachment 187349

Tank 3
View attachment 187350


Tank 4
View attachment 187351


Spirogyra is quite a stubborn algae. Tank 3 was pretty badly affected by spirogyra last summer (I was not doing regular water changes and tank maintenance). I tried to treat with excel and H2O2, it didn't work. I also lowered the light intensity but nothing happened. I even removed most of the badly affected plants along with doing all these chemical treatments and playing with light intensity, nothing worked for me. I finally tried API algaefix and it worked like magic, there was not even a single strand of spirogyra left after couple of weeks and it never returned back since then. I followed the guidelines on the bottle for dosing. I had some baby apistos in this tank and they were not affected by this treatment.

if all else fails, I will try some API algaefix. I was recommended it by @Happi as well. the problem with spiro is that its not affected at all by healthy growing plants lol, It'll happily attack the happiest of all plants in my tank. at this point, it's basically the only algae I have.light has been reduced to 40-25-40% that coupled with more floaters and lower collumn macro dosing seems to be helping.

 

[_Maq_]

Only today I've found this thread and, while reading it, I felt urge to respond to some statements. But this thread is pretty long, so instead of addressing individual posts, I add a few remarks here, within one post:

• In most cases, esp. in low-tech, our plants are not limited by nutrients but by light and/or CO2.
• While domesticated plants are genetically programmed for fast growth and often show signs of nutrients deficiencies, non-domesticated plants simply do not grow or grow slowly. (Up to certain point, of course.)
• In the nature, P & N are limiting factors and there's nothing strange about it. Plants are 'accustomed' to limited and difficult-to-reach phosphorus and often also nitrogen.
• Next in demand is K. In a few cases, scientists have documented some spots where potassium was limiting (instead of P or N). On the other hand, Mg & Ca are usually in excess relative to N, P & K. (I've made good experience in emulating these natural ratios.)
• An argument that "if water column is lean, then substrate must be rich" is simply wrong. Plants' consumption depends on light and CO2. If these resources are abundant, demand for nutrients is high. And vice versa. Substrate or water column make little difference. Besides, some elements tend to accumulate in the substrate (ammonium, P, micros except Mo) while others escape from substrate to water column (nitrate, potassium, sulfur, a.o.).
• Probably the only undisputed benefit of active substrates is that they evolve CO2 during initial weeks/months (a great advantage esp. for tiny tissue-culture plants).
• Plants in excess of CO2 take up relatively less N & P, and other nutrients. Carbon is used in elevated amounts for storage and for building structural tissues (polysaccharides). Therefore, such plants may look more robust. (In nature, herbivores would probably prefer such plants due to relatively lower content of calcium and silicon in their tissues.)
• Plants in excess of CO2 reduce chlorophyll formation, therefore are more often brightly red.
• Iron's behaviour is very specific as it creates precipitates in contact with mere oxygenated water.
• Only manganese's behaviour is similar.
• Other micros are much less prone to form precipitates.
• Therefore, it's wrong to take iron as a proxy for all micros.
• In reality, iron dosing depends on losses, which may be very important in pH>7, or in the increased presence of bicarbonates and phosphates.
• Apart from Fe & Mn, tap water regularly contains enough micros.
• Hobbyists regularly dose ten times or even several hundred times more micros than needed.
• Upon certain conditions, micros accumulate in the substrate (esp. in active substrates) and may get suddenly released upon a change in conditions (pH, redox).

- Harmful effects of rich dosing of main nutrients (par example, more than 5 mg/L NO3) and micros are documented in literature, yet mostly by features we can hardly perceive (typically by increased secretion of compounds which are a result - and therefore proof - of some kind of stress). In the hobby, though, any evidence is scarce and inconclusive at best.

 

[MichaelJ]

'Tis the season!

Cheers,
Michael

 

[swyftfeet]

 

[erwin123]

Rotala Kill Tank

ROTALA KILL TANK Starting a new journal to document experiments on Lythraceae family of plants. Lythraceae include Rotala, Ammannia, Nesaea, Didiplis, and Cuphea. Those of you who have followed my other journal are familiar with the struggle that I (and countless others) have had with this...

barrreport.com

Don't worry, I'll distract Maq by introducing him to the 55+ page Rotala Kill Tank thread. That should occupy him for several days!

The actual theoretical underpinnings behind why some people can grow nice plants is not critical to me. I prefer to adopt an 'evidence-based' approach. If "copying" someone's technique leads to nice plants for me, that's great, I don't need to fully understand the science.
Copying the technique of rich substrate, osmocote, lean(er) water column dosing seems to work for me, so I'll just carry on! 🙂

 

[MichaelJ]

I prefer to adopt an 'evidence-based' approach.

That’s like the strangest approach to aquarium keeping ever!

Don't worry, I'll distract Maq by introducing him to the 55+ page Rotala Kill Tank thread. That should occupy him for several days!

Yup! He needs a good puzzle!

Cheers,
Michael