Definitely Darrel. The word recycling may have a negative connotation for some but not in my book. It's actually a good thing what you do. It forces people to search and investigate more. It also keeps old threads alive.
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Practical application of lean fertilizer dosing
- Thread starter MichaelJ
- Start date
Hello Darrel,
Since you mentioned comammox... I was able to show during my PhD that one of the laboratory constructed mutants of nitrogenase is capable of reducing nitrate all the way to ammonia. Although it is definitely not relevant to what happens in nature (at least for now) but it was quite fascinating to prove that a single enzyme can catalyze the 8e- reduction of nitrate all the way to ammonia (wildtype enzyme showed extremely low levels of activity, significantly less than the already low activity shown by the mutant, as can be seen from the figure below). My PhD advisor didn't believe my results when I first showed him my findings but eventually I was able to convince him by repeating my experiments multiple times. As far as I am aware, no other enzyme (single enzyme system) currently known to science can catalyze this reaction.
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aquanoobie
Member
Hi @SudiptaHere are some links that you might find interesting:
Archaea in Aquaria: Tiny Organisms, Huge Discovery
We thought we knew everything about the nitrogen cycle. We were wrong.aquariumkids.org
Interesting reading. This article says not all freshwater tanks share the same microbial diversity. Would you say this is because not all tanks have the same conditions to support it or because some microbial species are absent?
There is a lot of emphasis on temperature.
In my books, temp is a tool.
If you are trying to get max O2 in the system to support life, then temp can certainly facilitate the upper bound for saturation … and it will slow down the rate of O2 consumption of everything.
I mean … that assumes O2 wasn’t in pseudo-excess at higher temps (differentiated for each unique species of course since consumption rates aren’t uniform)? There are lots of ways to increase O2 (lights, plant mass, filtration, agitation, maintenance frankly).
But it’s cold … . Why not introduce natural temp fluctuations where at night it’s colder and during the day it’s warmer? If we think about the system, this makes a whole lot of sense.
Are we worried about plant forms? tightening up internodes? Ya low temp reduce metabolism and decrease demand on everything increasing the likelihood that the plant will be “willing to tighten up since current conditions are favourable”.
I’m more worried about ridding the column of bad things (don’t know what they are) and I have no clue how to do that … but the microbiology and macrobiology does … and it works faster (maybe not more Efficiently … but it will be efficient if O2 and probably lots of other stuff is present … where O2 had the largest magnitude of determiner of success - just guessing - and impose a leidbig law to all living things … that makes sense too) … . Why I’m worried about that? We have hundreds of other tools to obtain tight plant forms … why withhold energy? I will say that it is more scary and influential than light.
In my eyes: give them the energy they need to do their job to protect the system from the baddies - good will prevail!
Are we afraid of algae? Best thing I did was spawn them all repeatedly and predictably and then fix the system … after.
My 2c on temperature.
People are afraid of it and fish are cold.
Fundamentally, it’s the same argument for light and once we see the argument, it makes sense why the sun is bright and hot … (or it makes sense why we evolved under those predisposed conditions).
In my books, temp is a tool.
If you are trying to get max O2 in the system to support life, then temp can certainly facilitate the upper bound for saturation … and it will slow down the rate of O2 consumption of everything.
I mean … that assumes O2 wasn’t in pseudo-excess at higher temps (differentiated for each unique species of course since consumption rates aren’t uniform)? There are lots of ways to increase O2 (lights, plant mass, filtration, agitation, maintenance frankly).
But it’s cold … . Why not introduce natural temp fluctuations where at night it’s colder and during the day it’s warmer? If we think about the system, this makes a whole lot of sense.
Are we worried about plant forms? tightening up internodes? Ya low temp reduce metabolism and decrease demand on everything increasing the likelihood that the plant will be “willing to tighten up since current conditions are favourable”.
I’m more worried about ridding the column of bad things (don’t know what they are) and I have no clue how to do that … but the microbiology and macrobiology does … and it works faster (maybe not more Efficiently … but it will be efficient if O2 and probably lots of other stuff is present … where O2 had the largest magnitude of determiner of success - just guessing - and impose a leidbig law to all living things … that makes sense too) … . Why I’m worried about that? We have hundreds of other tools to obtain tight plant forms … why withhold energy? I will say that it is more scary and influential than light.
In my eyes: give them the energy they need to do their job to protect the system from the baddies - good will prevail!
Are we afraid of algae? Best thing I did was spawn them all repeatedly and predictably and then fix the system … after.
My 2c on temperature.
People are afraid of it and fish are cold.
Fundamentally, it’s the same argument for light and once we see the argument, it makes sense why the sun is bright and hot … (or it makes sense why we evolved under those predisposed conditions).
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Yes that's true, all tanks are different (just like humans, our body is covered with microorganisms, inside and outside. However, there is significant diversity among the microbes from one person to another).
Nobody can predict what type of microbial community will develop in individual tank. There are so many variables and microbes literally communicate with each other through quorum sensing (watch the TED talk link I posted yesterday). One group of microbes can block another group to grow, they can also allow certain microbes to flourish if there is an advantage. Once the tank is running, it is an ecosystem. It is not something that can be controlled.
G
Guest
Guest
I'd hazard a wild guess that microbial species diversity in fish tanks, and on and in humans etc, is determined by and maintained like any other insular biota through a dynamic equilibrium between immigration and extinction rates. In particular by something along the lines of MacArthur and Wilson's seminal piece on The Theory of Island Biogeography. Although originally applied to island ecosystems, it has since been applied to microbiota as well 🙂
aquanoobie
Member
Thank you @Sudipta
Is having the right microbial species needed to have balanced ecosystem? Yes it is. But the question is do we have to bring those missing species in and seed the tank or does it happen naturally when the conditions are right?
Hi all,
I'm going to guess again that you don't have to add anything, over time the appropriate microbial flora will develop.
Cheers Darrel
I'm going to guess that it is the differences in tank maturity and, probably most importantly, the ammonia loading.
I think that is where tank maturity comes in, you can "cheat" by adding an inoculum from an existing filter, but over time the microbial flora will fine tune itself to the ammonia loading, dissolved oxygen levels, organic carbon loading etc.
I'm going to guess again that you don't have to add anything, over time the appropriate microbial flora will develop.
Cheers Darrel
MichaelJ
Member
Hi @LondonDragon,
Nope. I am not lost at all. I know exactly what I want to achieve:
Not sure why you think I am lost on that goal... 🙂
Not a lot of contradictions as far as I can tell... Well, if the fact that I am listening, learning and tweaking my perception in light of new Information on certain aspects, amount to a lot of contractions, well so be it... I am actually happy that my mind have that flexibility! 🙂 I wish more people would be just a tad more open-minded 😉
We never said there weren't any string attached - that was made pretty clear in the original post ... see below for more...
Yep, @Happi @Sudipta et al. never told us otherwise... It was always abundantly clear to me, that this is not for a straight-tap tank that uses 20 GH/20 KH, 8.2 pH water and very high temperatures... It's a framework as I see it, requiring the use of certain compounds (NH4 and/or Urea in small quantities... heck, everything is in small quantities... ), soft acidic water, somewhat lower temps. rich/mature substrate and a bunch of other prerequisites.
Yep, that was pretty much covered by the original post and have been repeated here. The "very little gain!" bit is a matter of opinion, your opinion not mine... for me being able to grow more challenging stem plants is a huge gain for me and my enjoyment of this hobby!
Perfectly fine. Horses for courses... We never talked about this being suitable for aquacapers who often only run their tanks for say 6 month, tear down, rinse, repeat. That is indeed great, just not what I want to accomplish. I want long term success with each tank I set up and generally make very few changes along the way.
We occasionally have posts (including from myself) like that, yes... I suppose it's just a testament to the fact that this generates a lot of discussions very quickly that can be hard to sort out. Heck, we are at +300 posts and counting in 6 days... There are bound to be some overlap, repetitiveness and missed posts etc.
No "medication" yet as it is just barely afternoon here in Minnesota
... but just to reiterate:I want to grow more challenging stem plants in a low-tech (i.e. NO-CO2 injection) environment - If I can get anywhere close to what @Sudipta, @Happi, @macek.g and others have accomplished I will be a very happy hobbyist and so will my livestock - being in waters with parameters much closer to the natural habitats they evolved in! ... How is this not clear?
Paulo, my friend, I absolutely do not mind being in the firing line of good jokes and banter - I am usually the one having the most fun (pre- and post "medication"
) when that happens in actual social interactions... but I don't really fancy being labelled as lost or "not clear" in this context, when it's quite clear what the objectives are and that I just want to learn more on how I and others can achieve our goals and increase the chance of success. Anyway, let's more on from this and concentrate on the topic here.The last few last days especially after @Sudipta graciously have joined the conversation I think I have learned more and gained more confidence in this approach... yes, more confidence... I also think a lot of the more skeptical voices here have added a lot of good and more relevant input to this conversation recently.
Cheers,
Michael
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G
Guest
Guest
That's appreciated Michael, thank you. I think you have all the information and support you need to make this a great success. Personally, I'm really looking forward to a well documented journal. It'd be a great place to carry on this discussion in reference to the actual practical application of all the wonderful contributions made throughout this thread and it's predecessor.
Hello Michael,
I am glad that you are feeling confident about the method. However, you might still find it little challenging when you first start it. It is always the same for me, no matter how much I read or watch other researchers doing certain experiments, I only start learning when I conduct those experiments myself. I have not found any alternative yet.
Feel free to contact me anytime if you have any questions. I will be more than happy to give you some plants from my tanks, you just have to collect them from me (I am in Falcon Heights). I can also give you some extract from the filter which might help to seed/cycle your tank (atleast with whatever microorganisms live in my tanks).
All the best. 🙂
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MichaelJ
Member
Hello Sudipta,
Yes. Well, I am definitely confident, but I am also realistic and have reasonable expectations I think. This will definitely take some wet sleeves, trail and error and learning by doing...
I will definitely do so - Thanks for offering your help!
That would be awesome! Yep, we are not too far apart - I am down at the Saint Croix river, a short 25 minutes drive from where you are at... I will PM you later today or over the weekend with some more details.
Thanks a bunch! You've been very, very helpful so far sharing your experience etc.! Much appreciated! 🙏
Cheers,
Michael
LondonDragon
Member
Bit of banter indeed, looking forward to that journal 😉
GreggZ
Member
The claim for these methods is that high light, low nutrients, and low CO2 can work. I don't dispute that. Sudipta's tank is an excellent example.
But meanwhile in my reality where I talk to a wide range of people in the hobby, for about 95% of the people, high light + low ferts + low CO2 = unhappy plants and algae. I can say that pretty confidently as I have seen it too many times to count. And it happens even more often now that so many LED fixtures are capable of huge amounts of PAR. In most cases lowering light, increasing nutrients, and optimizing CO2 makes things one heck of a lot easier.
Just saying going down this road is not the path of least resistance, and for those trying them I hope that the results are worth the effort.
John q
Member
An ounce of gold.... you do realise aquatic pants are our or 2nd hobby 🙄
plantnoobdude
Member
you see, the correct answer is actually, secret answer number three. get the ounce of gold, sell the gold. MORE PLANTS.
sparkyweasel
Member
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When we used incandescant bulbs to light our tanks, that was a side-effect, - tanks would be several degrees warmer towards the end of the photoperiod.
aquanoobie
Member
The greatest lessons in life are those we learn the hard way.
sparkyweasel
Member
- Joined
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- Messages
- 2,974
I must get some of those! 🙂
