The Celestial Swamp - A voyage through a flooded forest fringe (Shallow Riparium)

[Filip Krupa]

Fantastic tank. I was thinking of a similar setup, shallow with lots if emergent growth.
Ended up with, well, a beast.

Hows the bean animal overflow working for you? I've installed the same. Cant believe how quiet and reliable it is. Genius

Fil

 

[hitmanx]

I decided to add some more otociclus today to round out the school to 5... they seem very healthy but are pretty small...

I also got the chance to get some wild type cherry shrimp to try, but this time most of them went into the breeder box in the sump so I can observe their survival without the threat of predation and accidental destruction from the powerheads etc... 5 adults and 12 babies... as I've said the 5 amano shrimp in the display are doing great, but I just haven't had any luck with cherry shrimp... perhaps with the Celestichthys choprae sequestered to the dark regions of the sump, the cherries will have a fighting chance... I did release a few into the display as well...

Here's hoping...

 

[hitmanx]

Hows the bean animal overflow working for you? I've installed the same. Cant believe how quiet and reliable it is. Genius

Fil

The bean animal is great, but because I am using the coast to coast overflow to hold riparium planters so the flow to the pipes fluctuates and sometimes I need to adjust the main valve to compensate for this... if the overflow was open, it would be silent 100% of the time... also the plastic canvas that guards the overflow affects the flow so I need to shake it clean...

 

[hitmanx]

This is the Salvinia minima I have in the riparium... it isn't especially healthy and is getting these brown spots on them since I added the fishing line around them... surface scum collects in that area now so maybe it's affecting it...



But then I have some in my wabi kusa and it's more healthy but grows bigger but some also goes moldy some times if it gets too crowded...



I also have some in my quarantine tank... it's small but healthy... it gets wet from a air sponge filter but is doing well...



And also in my smaller riparium with surface scum and a cyano problem it's getting alot of brown spots...



My point is it's growing different in all my tanks and I don't really know why it's getting these brown spots... not sure if it's deficiency or the scum...

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

it isn't especially healthy and is getting these brown spots on them

That is lensing where water droplets have got onto the leaves and then acted as lens causing the burn marks. You can see the droplets in some of the other photos.

Because Salvinia has a flat leaf, that is hydrophobic, you get spherical water droplets and these are effective lenses.



cheers Darrel

 

[hitmanx]

Hi all,
That is lensing where water droplets have got onto the leaves and then acted as lens causing the burn marks.
cheers Darrel

I would normally agree but there is no splashing or agitation in the tanks with the brown spots and the tank with the most splashing water has absolutely no brown spots at all...

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

no splashing or agitation in the tanks with the brown spots

It might be dripping condensation (from one of the emersed plants or the luminaire)? or fertiliser burn?

Not sure otherwise, but it definitely looks like a burn mark.

and the tank with the most splashing water has absolutely no brown spots at all...

I think it depends on the light source, you don't get it with fluorescent tubes, but you do with a point light source (it was really common with HPS growlights).

cheers Darrel

 

[hitmanx]

Hi all, It might be dripping condensation (from one of the emersed plants or the luminaire)? or fertiliser burn?

Not sure otherwise, but it definitely looks like a burn mark.I think it depends on the light source, you don't get it with fluorescent tubes, but you do with a point light source (it was really common with HPS growlights).

cheers Darrel

No dripping or condensation of any kind... all open... the riparium have par38 LED bulbs and the wabi has par30 LED so they are point source... but the wabi does not have the brown spots... the quarantine tank had a finnex LED...

Anyways I'm probably taking them out of the main tanks... they grow so fast and are good nitrate scrubbers so I will probably only keep them in the wabi and quarantine tank... I need more nutrients in the riparium not less!

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

Because Salvinia has a flat leaf, that is hydrophobic, you get spherical water droplets and these are effective lenses.

I should have put the <"reference"> in for that one.

........ However, we showed that highly refractive spheroid water drops held 'in focus' by hydrophobic wax hairs on leaves of Salvinia natans (floating fern) can indeed cause sunburn because of the extremely high light intensity in the focal regions, and the loss of water cooling as a result of the lack of intimate contact between drops and the leaf tissue.......

they grow so fast and are good nitrate scrubbers so I will probably only keep them in the wabi and quarantine tank... I need more nutrients in the riparium not less!

Your's look pretty healthy, and they <"definitely hoover up the nutrients">. Salvinia spp. have been used quite widely in phytoremediation

......In summary, S. minima is a better option than S. polyrrhiza for treating high-strength organic wastewater and lagoons should be operated at a maximum initial ammonium–nitrogen concentration of 70 mg l−1.......

cheers Darrel

 

[hitmanx]

Yes I think salvinia should be mandatory for new setups... I'm sure it would help alot of people out with getting a tank started without problems...

I'm just not sure it's good as a long term plant... I have probably exacerbated my nutrient problems by adding the salvinia minima...

 

[hitmanx]

Not quite cold yet, and the workers spring to action... I bumped my head on the stand while working on the sump and this guy jumps out, lands on my back but does not recover after outing back in the tank... 5min later, he's being dismantled piece by piece.. .



I bought 5 adult wild cherry shrimp and about a dozen babies and put them in a breeder box in the sump... they are surviving with only one loss of the largest female... the ones I put in the display quickly made their way down to the sump so the overflow guard isn't stopping them...



I trimmed and replanted the stems and it's looking sparse again... lower leaves are still melting and pinholes are still a problem... the heterantha zosterfolia is doing well but the hygrophila angustifolia is showing the most signs of deficiency what ever it is... the osmocote root tabs haven't done much of anything to the dwarf sag... I'm giving it a month to see results before I start increasing my water column fertz to address the other deficiencies....



I added some large ramshorn snails and they seem to be getting on well... 4 more otociclus were also added last week but 1 didn't make it... a couple of the smaller neritina snails decided to kick the bucket... the yellow and black ones and the small black horned ones... the other larger spotted and grey ones seem to be happily grazing...

Since cleaning the filter and sump and consistently sucking out mulm and dead leaves, has really cleaned up this tank... I don't notice the crud all around anymore unless I agitate the maiden hair fern roots... just one more reason why I want to get rid of that plant... I'm sure the 5 amano shrimp, 4 Otocinclus, 8-10 nerites, 5 ramshorn and countless mini ramshorn snails are all helping to keep things tidy as well... I am just hoping the ramshorn population doesn't explode...

 

[Filip Krupa]

Nice update. Like the detail.

I bought 5 adult wild cherry shrimp

I thought cherry shrimp have been bred from a wild population of colourless shrimp?
Sounds like you got yourself some feral cherry shrimp! 😀

Fil

 

[hitmanx]

Nice update. Like the detail.



I thought cherry shrimp have been bred from a wild population of colourless shrimp?
Sounds like you got yourself some feral cherry shrimp! 😀

Fil

'Wild type I guess... I assume they are just culls.... they are pretty clear now, but they colour up slightly brown when the are on darker substrate... half the babies are red cherry shrimp...

 

[hitmanx]

Last week I ran some tests...

Ph 6.8-7.0 (hard to tell)
Kh <1
Gh 8
Tds 321

So gh and ph seems to be dropping over time... the kh has always been low because of the buffering of the aquasoil and safe t sorb... i have been using remineralised RO water set to 6gh with Salty Shrimp gh+

Since Jan 1st 2019, I have been using Thrive all-in-one fertilizer and seachem equilibrium and I dose 3 times a week...

According to rotala butterfly the addition of 24 ml Thrive and 0.75 tsp Equilibrium to my 65gal aquarium adds:

Element ppm/degree
NO3 12.92
Po4 2.40
K 12.20
Fe 0.48
Mg 0.98
Ca 1.23
Cu 0.0088
B 0.2243
Co 0.0002
Mn 0.0585
Mo 0.0018
Zn 0.0156

This is over the entire week, divided by three doses... again I have been using the numbers Tom bar suggested for a non co2 low tech with no water changes... but I have been doing water changes for awhile now and those numbers didn't include riparium plants which obviously hog all the go go juice...

How much can I increase the ferts without over doing it, given I only do 7-10% waterchanges per week? I know excess ferts dont cause algae, but im wondering about the fauna... I know I can slowly increase them but I'm looking for a good start...

 

[Edvet]

I know I can slowly increase them but I'm looking for a good start...

Just use Darrel's duckweed index, you'll always be om the lean side with it if that's what you want.

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

Tds 321

So gh and ph seems to be dropping over time... the kh has always been low because of the buffering of the aquasoil and safe t sorb... i have been using remineralised RO water set to 6gh with Salty Shrimp gh+

The TDS is quite high.

If you are happy with plant and fish health I'd keep the TDS about that level.

Just use Darrel's duckweed index, you'll always be om the lean side with it if that's what you want.

Unsurprisingly that is what I would do.

cheers Darrel

 

[hitmanx]

Hi all, The TDS is quite high.

If you are happy with plant and fish health I'd keep the TDS about that level.

cheers Darrel

Indeed, it does seem high... for the longest time the tds was around 400 but since doing regular small water changes it's stabilized around 300ish... now at a gh of 8, that's only about 133ppm accounted for... what makes up the other half? I don't know...

I definitely use the frogbit to gauge the overall health of the system... I removed all the salvinia as I didn't really like the colour contrast with the frogbit and it was allowing surface scum to form in the area separated by the fishing line...



The frogbit is mostly green but doesn't seem 100%... some yellow or faded or brown leaves and some holes...



I have decided to increase the dose of seachem equilibrium... maybe more magnesium and potassium is what my plants need... I am doubling what I've been putting in thus far... if I increase the magnesium with mgso4 the ratio to calcium will be too far off but I don't know if that's important...

I'm still not sure if the osmocote root tabs have done anything yet to the dwarf sag... I only put them on one side of the tank as an experiment...

this side has them...



And this side does not...



The water column nutrients are one thing... the substrate issues with these dwarf sag make no sense... has anyone had dwarf sag grow only 1 to 2 inches high, look generally healthy, but not send any runners for year?

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

what makes up the other half? I don't know..

Unfortunately it is difficult to find numbers with out some fairly expensive kit.

Some of it will be the anions that plants only need in small amounts HCO3-, Cl- and SO4-- etc. When you add a nutrient (a salt) usually you will have one component that you want, and one that you want in smaller amounts, if at all. You can get around this by adding salts where both components are needed in large amounts like KNO3, K2HPO4 etc. but they aren't always available, or they may be a lot more expensive (Mg(NO3)2.6H2O) or they may come with toxicity risks (NH4NO3) etc.

The frogbit is mostly green but doesn't seem 100%... some yellow or faded or brown leaves and some holes...

It looks fairly healthy. The damage to the older leaves may be lack of a mobile nutrient, but it could also be drip or snail damage.

If it was my frogbit I'd be fairly happy with it.

I have decided to increase the dose of seachem equilibrium... maybe more magnesium and potassium is what my plants need

Why don't you just add more magnesium (Mg) and potassium (K) salts? "Equilibrium" would be an expensive option, and I'm pretty sure you don't need any more calcium (Ca).

if I increase the magnesium with mgso4 the ratio to calcium will be too far off but I don't know if that's important...

As the levels of calcium go up you may begin to get problems with iron chelation and magnesium uptake. Iron deficiencies would show first in the younger leaves (smaller and more yellow).

cheers Darrel.

 

[hitmanx]

Hi all,

If it was my frogbit I'd be fairly happy with it.

Why don't you just add more magnesium (Mg) and potassium (K) salts? "Equilibrium" would be an expensive option, and I'm pretty sure you don't need any more calcium (Ca). As the levels of calcium go up you may begin to get problems with iron chelation and magnesium uptake. Iron deficiencies would show first in the younger leaves (smaller and more yellow).

cheers Darrel.

I've been only using .75 tsp of equilibrium a week so 1.5tsp won't break the bank, I can understand the extra calcium... I have "Epsom salts USP" in the bathroom but I don't know if that's safe... is that MgSO4 and safe for fish?

Clive always talks about structural damage and holes and melting leaves as an indictator of poor co2 and flow/distribution... I wouldn't think this would be such an issue in a low tech shallow tank with overflow and sump... the co2 should be at the maximum level of equilibrium it can achieve from the air... there's got to be another explaination for my stem woes... what is the limiting factor here?

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

I have "Epsom salts USP" in the bathroom but I don't know if that's safe... is that MgSO4 and safe for fish?

Yes and yes, only thing to note that it will be the heptahydrate (MgSO4.7H2O) and ~10% Mg. The USP bit just means that it is pharmaceutical grade and has a high level of purity.

Clive always talks about structural damage and holes and melting leaves as an indictator of poor co2 and flow/distribution..

Yes, that is the reason for the floating plant, it has access to 400ppm CO2, so any issues aren't related to CO2 availability.

cheers Darrel