The Celestial Swamp - A voyage through a flooded forest fringe (Shallow Riparium)

[hitmanx]

Fish behaviour always astounds me... i have had these three C. Margaritatus in a holding pen in the sump since last fall... they were some of my originals from the previous tank and I kinda forgot about them down there... they are nice and plump, albeit not very colourful but adding them back has done wonders for the other cpds...



Despite there being almost 15 other cpds in the main tank, they would NEVER come out if I was around even at feeding time... but today ALL of them came out for feeding... considering I named this tank after them it was nice to see...

 

[zozo]

Ficus pumila to add to the stump on the left and they never seem to take from stem cuttings... it's root or nothing...

About the same day you posted this i happen to get me some pumila too. Top cuttings from a friends terrarium.. Did put it on some potting soil in a plastic container with a transparent lid.

Results of less than 2 weeks.

 

[hitmanx]

Things are a little over grown...



Especially underwater... there's barely any open water for the fish...



The maiden hair fern is of course massive again and this is after a big trim...



I'm hacking away at the hygrophila polysperma as we speak and there was a lot of mulm hiding under there...

 

[hitmanx]

I'm embarrassed to show the state of this tank and what was accumulating behind all that growth...



The algae that I've been battling since 2017 really likes the manzanita on the bright left side and was covering the Limnobium laevigatum (frogbit) roots and
Ceratopteris thalictroides... i had to remove those and wash them off...



Something I noticed... the hygrophila polysperma that was growing under the dappled shade of the fern was healthier than the stems out under the bright lights... the ones out in the open seemed deficient...

I have 6 more Celestichthys margaritatus, 1 more Microdevario kubotai, and 11 Boraras brigittae (chili rasbora) drip acclimating to the quarantine tank and will be added at a later date...

I'm still not sure how fish are getting down into the sump but there's a lot down there... one of these days I'll get them back up into the display tank...

 

[Mattallic]

Hitmanx this tank is gorgeous mate. Unfortunate about current events. But the tank is amazing.

 

[hitmanx]

You can see here that the hygrophila polysperma on the left is more pale than that on the right... maybe the higher light is causing an imbalance...



With most of the stems and floaters taken out it's quite open but I think I like it... I will add stems back under the fern, but I will only add some of the frogbit back in...



I do like the contrast of the full top and mostly barren bottom...



There's a lot more swimming space for the fish... I could barely see any more than couple fish at a time before...



This way the hardscape is more on display... but I really wish my original concept worked out where the bottom looked like a flooded forest with "grasses" and crypt etc... too much light I guess... I started with 100% power to the LEDs at 7hrs/day and now I'm on 55% for 6hrs... hopefully the stupid algae and mulm accumulation will subside with the better flow now that the water column is more open...

 

[hitmanx]

Good grief... open space means maximum velocity for the remaining Celestichthys choprae to chase and harass the other fish...

I wish I could get them out of there...

In the last couple days I've seen 4 of the 6 amano shrimp at one time... only 2 of the
Brachydanio tinwini remain... and of the 10+ Celestichthys erythromycin that should be in there, I've only seen 1... the rest are in the sump or are hiding in the manzanita as they are very good at that... there are a bunch of the Microdevario kubotai down in the sump with less then half of them in the display tank...

I added a tiny Siamese Algae Eater (Crossocheilus oblongus) in early October and I swear he doubled in size in the first few weeks but now i can't find him...

Updated Fauna:

1 Otocinclus affinis
1 BN ancistrus
2 Brachydanio tinwini
10+ Celestichthys erythromycin (maybe?)
14+ Celestichthys margaritatus
3 Celestichthys choprae
7+ Microdevario kubotai
4+ Amano shrimp

Soon I will adding 1 more kubotai, 6 more cpds and 10 chili rasbora... I'm also thinking of adding a big group of Trigonostigma hengeli... apparently they are peaceful schooling fish that will get along...

 

[alto]

Great to see updates on this one 🙂

I still think your H polysperma isn’t all that happy - do you have soft or hard tap water?

I know I should look back to see ..... but .... what’s the substrate again?
While the emerse growth can easily strip the water column of nutrients, an enriched substrate should allow the submerse plants to manage fairly well

CO2?
Seachem Excel etc?
Daily fertilizers?
Water change?

Again I know I could look back in time for some of this info but thinking you may be changing things up as the tank goes along

30-50 M kubotai would look amazing in this tank (but maybe they are more $$ in your area - some shops will do you a bag lot at ~half retail (or less depending) if you pick fish up upon shipment delivery, ie they never go into shop tanks)

I’m surprised M kubotai would be bothered by the choprae as they seem pretty resilient themselves, but I’ve kept them in groups of at least 25 - the males can be pretty determined when sparring & hassling over territory

Lots of various “harlequin” rasbora shots in Mark Evans “Prairie Lands”
All of the Trigonostigma species are lovely aquarium fish, you can easily do a mixed group

I just looked at T somphongsi profile on Seriously Fish

 

[alto]

I wish I could get them out of there...

Bottle trap?

It’s a bit of a hassle but should work

Easier if you can move the “wrong” trapped fish to the sump (or other holding tank)

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

Good grief... open space means maximum velocity for the remaining Celestichthys choprae to chase and harass the other fish...

Small fish are usually happier with as much cover as possible, partially because it breaks up "line of sight".

Often people say "there wasn't room for the fish to swim around", but that is anthropomorphic view. If you can see the fish easily, so can predatory larger fish, birds, aquatic mammals etc. You know that you don't have any Herons or Otters in your living room, but the fish don't.

I actually prefer tanks where you can't see all the fish easily.

cheers Darrel

 

[mort]

Completely agree with Darrel. You might be able to intice them out a bit more though if you added more but you have a pretty perfect area for them at the back of the tank so I think it will be hard.
Normally some dither fish would help but I can't think of any bold species that would fit with you current stocking and not out compete, hopefully someone else might.

 

[mort]

I also sympathise with the choprae. I had a group of ten and they were really well behaved but after a 4 years or so that number dwindled to about 6 and they became a pain. I trapped half with a bottle trap but the other 3 were too crafty to go in it, so I had to go in a fully jungle planted tank with a net. Surprisingly I caught the 3 without much bother (I did run a lfs for a few years though so am a ninja with a net) so I say it is worth a try to net them even if you think it's impossible, just have a stick that you can gentle coax them out with and maybe partition an area of the tank to corral them into.

I still have 6 in their new tank and they are fine now.

 

[hitmanx]

Great to see updates on this one 🙂

I still think your H polysperma isn’t all that happy - do you have soft or hard tap water?

My tap water is rock hard so I originally mixed it 50/50 with RO water... I believe the hardness was 10dGh when I started and I think that's what it is now... tds has always hovered around 360ish... Kh always reads around 1 or 2...

The substrate consists of a sprinkling of osmocote+, 40 lbs of ADA Malaya, 30 lbs of new and used ADA Amazonia, 70 lbs of safe t sorb (mainly in the back) and 1 lb of ground peat moss... I also added mexican clay pellets recently... I've tried root tabs but they didn't seem to do anything...

While the initial growth was great at the substrate, I really have struggled to grow much down there after the first year...

This tank is non CO2, no excel, and I try to do 10% water changes per week with salty shrimp remineralised RO water, but the first year was RO top off only I believe...

Fertz twice per week:

EQUILIBRIUM 3 dash
KNO3 3 dash
KH2PO4 1 pinch + 1 nip
EDTA Fe 1 dash

I don't remember what the ppms of those doses are... I will have to check...

I would love a big school of something and the kubotai are great dither fish... they are fearless which helps the cpds etc feel more comfortable and they come out of hiding a lot more now... I haven't decided on more kubotai or T. Hengli ($3CAD vs $2CAD)... my LFS has 30 kubotai coming in next week so maybe i will ask if they can give me a discount if I just take them right away...

The last I used the bottle trap the only thing that went in there was amano shrimp...

 

[hitmanx]

Hi all, Small fish are usually happier with as much cover as possible, partially because it breaks up "line of sight".

I actually prefer tanks where you can't see all the fish easily.

cheers Darrel

I do agree but I think it depends on species dynamics... before I chopped the jungle down i watched the fish for a long time and they still seemed skitish because they were all so separated... now that it's open the kubotai are schooling out in the open even when I'm right there and the cpds don't seem bothered by my presence now.. . The Celestichthys erythromycin are a whole different story... nothing gets those guys out unless I sit across the room and don't move for a few minutes...

Either way, the open space is actually only about half the tank space in total... there's plenty of hiding spots they utilize in and behind the hardscape...

View attachment 96187


As far as it being an anthropomorphic idea, sure, but I was taking the idea based on some species like danios needing open space to swim... before I set up this tank I watched a lot of YouTube videos of the natural habitats in Burma and other asian countries... marginal vegetation along with a border of crypt species and then open water seemed to prevail the small fish seemed to flit about in the open and dart back into cover and come out again... in the case of lake Inle where cpds are from there's a lot of floating hornwort ect so I can see that being beneficial but ugly from a aquascape standpoint...

But either way, when I added the kubotai as dither fish, the game changed... I believe the Asian rummy nose or Sabwa resplendens takes that chore at lake Inle, but I don't like the look of those guys or their behaviour... I was actually looking at them yesterday at the my lfs...

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

Either way, the open space is actually only about half the tank space in total... there's plenty of hiding spots they utilize in and behind the hardscape...

I'm not saying it is a poor environment for them, it is a wonderful tank, and even if it didn't have any submersed plants it would still be better in terms of fish welfare than 99% of other tanks.

i watched the fish for a long time and they still seemed skitish because they were all so separated... now that it's open the kubotai are schooling out in the open

This is sort of it.

I've not kept any of these species, but I have kept a lot of different Tetra species and none of them are really fish that school, they use "safety in numbers", but when there isn't any threat they all hunt individually, or in small groups of two or three.

In evolutionary terms it makes sense, watchfulness and larger group size work when you have a threat, but if you don't it is much better to be an individual in terms of foraging, because you don't have to share your food find with other fish. There is very little food naturally in open water, it is all produced in the biofilm and plants. It is as simple as if a fish is a more successful forager it will pass on more of its genes.

There is evolutionary research on "exploratory behaviour" in Wild Guppies (Poecilia reticulata). "......Using guppies from multiple streams and rivers in Trinidad, we compared guppies from high- and low-predation populations. We found that wild-caught male and female guppies from low-predation populations were more exploratory than high-predation fish when tested in the field and in controlled laboratory conditions......" <"Environmental and genetic effects on exploratory behavior of high- and low-predation guppies (Poecilia reticulata)">.

If the main predator type of a habitat was a species that was an ambush predator (like a Water Scorpion or Dragonfly nymph) then you might find species that spent longer in open water, but they still would have to come into the vegetation to feed.

Dither fish definitely work, if you keep Apistogramma spp. they are much more out and about in a tank with dithers.

cheers Darrel

 

[Conort2]

As far as it being an anthropomorphic idea, sure, but I was taking the idea based on some species like danios needing open space to swim... before I set up this tank I watched a lot of YouTube videos of the natural habitats in Burma and other asian countries... marginal vegetation along with a border of crypt species and then open water seemed to prevail the small fish seemed to flit about in the open and dart back into cover and come out again... in the case of lake Inle where cpds are from there's a lot of floating hornwort ect so I can see that being beneficial but ugly from a aquascape standpoint...

But either way, when I added the kubotai as dither fish, the game changed... I believe the Asian rummy nose or Sabwa resplendens takes that chore at lake Inle, but I don't like the look of those guys or their behaviour... I was actually looking at them yesterday at the my lfs...

I believe the kubotai are from fast flowing streams in Thailand that are pretty much devoid of vegetation. Danio choprae are from a similar habitat therefore they will probably enjoy the open space your given them. I used to keep a shoal of devario patherina in a planted tank and they absolutely hated it if it got overgrown so I think it does depend what species you have. The issue is as youve seen that your cpd love cover, their habitat is the complete opposite of the danios and kubotai. They're from weed choked ponds and ditches. I hardly ever see mine in my tank.

Maybe if you could plant some more lower growing plants such as crypts or maybe echinodorus tennellus that way your fish get the best of both worlds, open water up top but plenty of cover on the bottom for the cpds.

Cheers

Conor

 

[hitmanx]

Maybe if you could plant some more lower growing plants such as crypts or maybe echinodorus tennellus that way your fish get the best of both worlds, open water up top but plenty of cover on the bottom for the cpds.

Cheers

Conor

Indeed the cpds like the cover provided by the hardscape and utilize it well and the vegetation close to it, but having the kubotai up in the water column definately makes them more at ease... I feel like the kubotai feel more at home in the open as do the tinwini and choprae... so I have cover for the margaritatus and erythromycin, and open water for the others...

The entire substrate was covered in crypts and tennellus at one time but they have since died away... thats a whole other issue I'm dealing with...

 

[hitmanx]

I still think your H polysperma isn’t all that happy - do you have soft or hard tap water?

See above picture with the polysperma on the left growing under brighter lights than the stems on the right... thats not a shadow... the colour is actually more pale and are under the same lights now...

 

[hitmanx]

I also sympathise with the choprae.

It's too bad... the Celestichthys choprae are actually very beautiful fish... if I didn't have an open top I would actually have a large shoal of them in the tank... when I had close to 20 of them in here it was awesome to watch them flit about together as their colours are so vivid... but they all jumped out except for the last 3... even now as I watch them they are exhibiting some very interesting sparring behaviour similar to the cpds... and they are the only fish in the tank that successfully had fry that matured in the sump...

Now if I could only get the cpds to breed...

Besides the ancistrus, otociclus and the amano shrimp, all of the fish hail from Burma (Myanmar) so it would be cool to continue that theme, but a big school of trigonostigma hengeli would certainly be more eye catching and colourful than the kubotai... but they are from Sumatra...

 

[hitmanx]

The overflow and sump!!

Somehow the Siamese Algae Eater got down into the sump! How is that possible?? He's already bigger than the c. Choprae...

The overflow is surrounded by #10 plastic canvas... unless they jump over that and then over the leaf gutter guard which is an inch taller...

Could they possibly be swimming into the return pipe and down into the pump and somehow not get chewed up??

I'm so confused...