Hi @arcturus
I see that you are in the EU. In your country of residence, may I ask what you would expect to pay for these tests? Are we in the UK being ripped off?
JPC
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Red Algae/BBA - An Update
- Thread starter jaypeecee
- Start date
I see that you are in the EU. In your country of residence, may I ask what you would expect to pay for these tests? Are we in the UK being ripped off?
JPC
Hi all,
Having had a look at the web site it looks like the labs they use are at UC Cork.
cheers Darrel
I'd imagine that it isn't out of line with what you would pay in another lab. Some of the tests would require a microbiology lab. etc. The metals you could get via ICP.
It might be possible to sneak a sample in if we were doing any water testing.
Having had a look at the web site it looks like the labs they use are at UC Cork.
cheers Darrel
X3NiTH
Member
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- 13 Apr 2014
- Messages
- 1,647
Nothing really beyond Triton-ICP but that’s really targeted for Sea Water and RO sample, no idea whether they will analyse a freshwater sample, they may test and see salinity out of range from expected and declare a null sample, submitting it as an RO sample might trigger a null sample also because the conductivity would be way out of range for RO, they could assume I sent an accidental tap water sample, they may report the levels but could just respond that the sample is out of range and to service the RO unit and send a fresh sample, no idea?
That would be sneaky but handy! What would the sample size need to be, 10ml, 100ml, 1L?
The only thing of significance that needs to be tested for is the trace metals, all the other stuff like hardness and conductivity etc would be handy for accuracy but can be tested for conventionally to a reasonable degree of accuracy without too much issue.
Total DOC testing from the Cork lab would be interesting to see what the effect overdosing Humic acids has on the water column but ouch £50 for that single test.
MichaelJ
Member
Well, knowing upfront that Darrels "duckweed index" was actually meant to be "frogbit index" would have been helpfulYou can’t put a price on the Duckweed Index because it’s priceless! It’s free but it’s still Priceless!
... I know, I know my duckweed actually came in unintentionally with some plants I bought last year... so I am not blaming Darrel (not officially at least )for my weekly "war" against the duckweed... I wish I had more armhair though That said, the <Duckweed Index> works perfectly for me so far! ...and I am starting to think (likely erroneously) there is no such thing as not enough light for aquatic plants - within reason obviously!... at least the ones I keep (tons of different Crypts, Anubias, swords, ferns, Bucephalandra, Bolbitis etc. all the easy ones...)... seems to thrive no matter how much duckweed, frogbit and pennywort is covering the surface... and how low my light intensity is (and it's low... but +12 hours/day). Well, it is totally a conjecture at this stage, so don't take it as a general advice
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Hi Everyone,
It's exactly three weeks since I wrote the above. And, I'm pretty sure that I now have an answer to the question - what causes BBA? The main culprit appears to be - DOC/DOM*. So, now it's time for anyone interested to do some reading. It will almost certainly be necessary to read the following several times to understand what the authors are saying...
Akvaristika
And, here is a summary:
"The imperfect activity of mineralizing bacteria and the consequent accumulation of toxic organic substances in the water is therefore, in our opinion, the main reason for the appearance of algae in the aquarium!"
For 'mineralizing bacteria', I read 'heterotrophic bacteria'. And, note - the above statement applies to algae in general, not just BBA. It also seems logical (to me) to extend this to Cyano.
Now, that's all well and good but where's the proof? There is A N Other forum on which someone has successfully used a mixture of bacteria to consume a species of Red Algae.
*DOC/DOM - Dissolved Organic Carbon/Dissolved Organic Matter
JPC
Yes, I'm sure he was - when he was on UKAPS. Shame he left. A couple of us on here have tried to contact Marcel in the last twelve months or so. He did reply to me at one point but seems to want to remain private. So be it. At least he's left a lot of useful information on his website. So, let's make good use of it.
JPC
John q
Member
Thanks for the invite ...
Is Doc/Dom the main player that causes BBA? I honestly don't know but suspect it's one of several players. Keeping the water column clean of fish and plant waste is something we should aim for and will no doubt assist in controlling algal blooms.
I've read that article before and numerous posts by Marcel on ukaps and they always excite the grey matter.
Is Doc/Dom the main player that causes BBA? I honestly don't know but suspect it's one of several players. Keeping the water column clean of fish and plant waste is something we should aim for and will no doubt assist in controlling algal blooms.
Hi @John q
Let's probe deeper - cause and effect. In order to do this, it's worth re-visiting the following statement on Marcel's website*:
"The imperfect activity of mineralizing bacteria and the consequent accumulation of toxic organic substances in the water is therefore, in our opinion, the main reason for the appearance of algae in the aquarium!"
Perhaps we should try to establish why the mineralizing bacteria is seemingly not doing a thorough job of consuming waste? Insufficient aeration of the water column? Build-up of detritus/mulm in the substrate? Build-up of organics in the biological filter? Again, it's worth mentioning the section in Diana Walstad's book** entitled 'Decomposition by Heterotrophic Bacteria' on page 58. She also covers sediment decomposition. And, once again - no, I'm not on commission!
* Aquarium
** Ecology of the Planted Aquarium Third Edition, page 58
JPC
John q
Member
That's an easy one to recreate. Stop cleaning your tank and see what happens, if algae appears, brilliant. The next logical, scientific step would be to do lots of water changes and vacuum that gravel. If the algae disappears then your theory is correct.
We have to put these theory's to the test. Otherwise our observations are, err, meaningless.
And that's where you come in, @John q!
If you really want answers to these questions in a timely manner, how about you run the tests above? I'm already working with others here on UKAPS on other projects and I have my own experiments under way. Please keep us updated.
JPC
John q
Member
Unfortunately I also have "experiments" under way, which are fairly well documented on ukaps.
What experiments have you underway?
And again I suggest the proposer of these theory's is the one that should provide proof. I belive the term innocent until proven guilty still carries weight in this day and age.
What experiments have you underway?
And again I suggest the proposer of these theory's is the one that should provide proof. I belive the term innocent until proven guilty still carries weight in this day and age.
X3NiTH
Member
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- 13 Apr 2014
- Messages
- 1,647
I think when discussing Dissolved Organic Matter (dead plant tissue, digested and undigested gut content, etc) we really mean Phytate, Organically bound Phosphate, plants only uptake Inorganic Phosphate and store it as Phytate. Phytate has chelatory properties and is able to bind metals, thus both the Phosphate and Chelated metals in the water column will be unavailable to plants. Many algae species (including Rhodophyta) can produce Phytase (enzyme capable of cleaving the Phytate molecule) thus gaining access to both Phosphate and a bound metal ion simultaneously, this is a massive advantage over plants.
DOM will feed bacteria and if it’s the right type of bacteria say for instance Pseudomonas Nitrificans then the waste byproduct produced is B Vitamins including Vitamin B12 (Cyanocobalamin), lots of algae species (looking at you Rhodophyta) have a nutritional requirement for B12.
Harnessing the Phytase Production Potential of Soil-Borne Fungi from Wastewater Irrigated Fields Based on Eco-Cultural Optimization under Shake Flask Method
It is interesting that Copper and Manganese inhibit Phytase activity as these are generally the Metals used in treatments and dosed in concentration to inhibit algae growth, definitely not a coincidence. Something else that piqued my interest is seeing EDTA on that list, I don’t think there’s anything mysterious in this as it’s a relatively strong Chelate but I’m wondering if other strong chelates like Tannic Acid would have the same function, I suspect they do.
DOM will feed bacteria and if it’s the right type of bacteria say for instance Pseudomonas Nitrificans then the waste byproduct produced is B Vitamins including Vitamin B12 (Cyanocobalamin), lots of algae species (looking at you Rhodophyta) have a nutritional requirement for B12.
Vitamin B1 and B12 uptake and cycling by plankton communities in coastal ecosystems
Harnessing the Phytase Production Potential of Soil-Borne Fungi from Wastewater Irrigated Fields Based on Eco-Cultural Optimization under Shake Flask Method
It is interesting that Copper and Manganese inhibit Phytase activity as these are generally the Metals used in treatments and dosed in concentration to inhibit algae growth, definitely not a coincidence. Something else that piqued my interest is seeing EDTA on that list, I don’t think there’s anything mysterious in this as it’s a relatively strong Chelate but I’m wondering if other strong chelates like Tannic Acid would have the same function, I suspect they do.
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There was plenty of damage, the grass was turning yellow and breaking away.
Hi @X3NiTH
Aquatic DOM includes many more compounds than organically-bound phosphate. But, the available information is all (?) from natural habitats - rivers, lakes, etc. So, to what extent it applies to the aquarium hobby is anybody's guess. Diana Walstad lists carbohydrates, carboxylic acids, amino acids and hydrocarbons as simple compounds. Add to this humic substances and, boy, my head spins!
JPC
