Hi @Happi
I'm still confused. I don't see the connection with our aquariums. I must be missing something. 🙁
JPC
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Red Algae/BBA - An Update
- Thread starter jaypeecee
- Start date
I'm still confused. I don't see the connection with our aquariums. I must be missing something. 🙁
JPC
As for this, I am not sure what they call Fe/Trace overdose. Providing a range would have been more scientifically credible. With EI we are already overdosing nutrients, traces and Fe included, Fe being in the range of 0.2-0.6ppm. Personally I have seen more low tech tanks with lower CO2 levels with loads of BBA than high tech tanks with loads of BBA. Emphasis on the word "load". I didn't say "without".
Personally I think the common denominators are high organics and CO2 fluctuations. But reality be told these are true for a wide range of algae. They are not specific to BBA. Although I would be inclined to think that lower/non optimized CO2 levels would promote BBA/algae development.
As for 20ppm of CO2 being an optimal range and high light/high CO2 being a "false theory" I don't buy that. Emmersed plants are exposed to ~400ppm of atmospheric CO2. Greenhouses push that sometimes to 1000ppm and plants grow more and better. Limitation in submersed plants would be the acidity caused by such high CO2 levels (if that was even possible) but it is not uncommon to have tanks at 45/50 ppm of CO2 which are perfectly healthy with no BBA whatsover. Look at Tom Barr's tanks or Greggs. There are so many more examples that contradict that "false theory".
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@Hanuman
like I said those were my hypothesis and I repeated these experiments several times and got the same result every time. not sure if you understood what I meant by "High Light and need for high CO2 theory" but this theory is false, it didn't hold up far as BBA goes. all am saying is that you will not get BBA if you have high light and lower co2 such as 15-20 ppm. I have seen BBA in both low and high co2 enriched tanks and I have seen it grow under both with fluctuating and stable co2.
on the forums, the most common solution to BBA is increase and stabilize the Co2, this is only partially correct. there is only some truth to it just like in the thread below:
Post# 103
Lean dosing pros and cons
like I said those were my hypothesis and I repeated these experiments several times and got the same result every time. not sure if you understood what I meant by "High Light and need for high CO2 theory" but this theory is false, it didn't hold up far as BBA goes. all am saying is that you will not get BBA if you have high light and lower co2 such as 15-20 ppm. I have seen BBA in both low and high co2 enriched tanks and I have seen it grow under both with fluctuating and stable co2.
on the forums, the most common solution to BBA is increase and stabilize the Co2, this is only partially correct. there is only some truth to it just like in the thread below:
Post# 103
Lean dosing pros and cons
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which connection you are not seeing? everything I have written in there is all related to our aquarium.
1. BBA is strongly linked to Organics
2. BBA is strongly linked to Dying plants (Organic Buildup)
3. BBA is strongly linked to plant being damaged by several nutrients
4. BBA have a strong link with Organic Fertilizers
5. BBA love to grow in strong flow
6. BBA is linked to Bacteria that suppose to break down the Organics
if you create the above scenario in your aquarium, BBA will surely occur and you can put the best Co2 system in the world and it wont get rid of BBA, it will actually make it worse until you correct those scenarios first.
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Hi all,
cheers Darrel
I'm wondering whether @jaypeecee was misled by the water clarity? And thought this was a terrestrial lawn, rather than an aquatic one?
cheers Darrel
Not sure who suggested that the solution to BBA was to increase and stabilize the CO2 but that is definitely over-simplistic. If that was the solution it would be easy and we wouldn't have threads after thread and years of discussion on the subject. There is one thing that most people who run high tech tanks don't do often enough or underestimate, it's maintenance (filter cleaning etc etc), and I think that most of the problems with algae in general, stems from that due to organics lingering around. To that you add CO2 instabilities (and usually not enough specially when you are starting in the hobby) and you get a good factory for algae, BBA included. But CO2 alone will definitely not explain or solve BBA, at least not in my experience.
this is a good thing, because that mean my aquarium water must be crystal clear. the ADA glass also adds to the confusion.
Hi @Hanuman
In another post, I questioned this notion of stabilizing the CO2. I'm not sure to what extent this is possible. What happens at night and the following morning? Firstly, CO2 is switched OFF, then lights fade OFF. And then, the following morning, this is reversed. That's hardly stable CO2, is it? And, pH will also fluctuate in response to this. Or, am I overlooking something?
JPC
Hi @Happi
In Red Algae/BBA - An Update, (third paragraph) it talks about nitrifying bacteria not being able to break down organic matter. It's my understanding that nitrifying bacteria, being autotrophic, don't consume organic matter. This is a job for the heterotrophic bacteria, isn't it?
JPC
In Red Algae/BBA - An Update, (third paragraph) it talks about nitrifying bacteria not being able to break down organic matter. It's my understanding that nitrifying bacteria, being autotrophic, don't consume organic matter. This is a job for the heterotrophic bacteria, isn't it?
JPC
When we are talking about CO2 fluctuations we are more specifically referring to fluctuations within the photo period, not necessarily from one day to the other as plants/algae only use CO2 when lights are on. Obviously if CO2 fluctuates from one day to the other where CO2 content during the photo period differs from one day to the next then that is also not good as plants need to adapt and can't figure out what the deal is. If CO2 dips during photo period then goes up again, in other words CO2 content in water is not stable, plants also suffer and algae takes advantage of that situation. That's what fluctuation means to me.
One should focus on plant health and stability, short, medium and long term. Do that and algae becomes a dream of the past OR one can keep trying to find reasons to why this algae or the other is appearing and trying to find the solution, but at the end it will all end up in the same solution. Stability. This applies to CO2, light, organics, ferts etc etc. So CO2 stability is one big piece of the puzzle but it definitely isn't the only one when it comes to BBA. What I say sounds pretty general and basic but is not always easy to keep a system stable in a closed and small environment like a tank.
In my experience BBA proliferation can start at any stage of the tank life. If at the beginning then it means something is really out of wack. Most commonly though it starts becoming more prominent when the tank has a certain age and organics have had enough time to accumulate over time. That's why consistent maintenance will keep BBA away while keeping all other parameters in check and stable. CO2+organics = catalysts.
Here is a good explanation about CO2 stability/fluctuation:
Surface agitation & gaseous exchange in CO2 injected tanks
Surface agitation in a planted aquarium - yes or not ? This page explores why having some surface agitation and turnover is actually useful in planted tanks and actually makes tuning CO2 to optimal levels more easy.
www.2hraquarist.com
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Age? Maybe bad day? Beer not cold enough? Often happens to me to not see what is in front of my nose 😅Try as I might, all that my eyes and brain were 'seeing' was a terrestrial lawn. 😵🙄
Hi @Hanuman
* DIC = Dissolved Inorganic Carbon
JPC
Obviously, I'm aware that plants/algae can only use DIC* for photosynthesis when lights are on. Is it aquatics hobbyists' experience that fluctuating CO2 levels do contribute to the growth of BBA? Perhaps one of the root causes of BBA growth is not fluctuating CO2 levels per se but fluctuating pH? And if pH fluctuates, that may cause different forms of DIC* to be available in the water column, i.e. CO2/bicarbonate/carbonate. Dependent on BBA's preferred form of DIC*, perhaps pH is fluctuating around the pH8 mark? See below:
* DIC = Dissolved Inorganic Carbon
JPC
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I think it's not specifically addressed to BBA but to most problems that hobbyist experience. Fluctuating CO2 or whatever the parameters I guess is no bueno.
Honestly, that's beyond my knowledge. The experts here can probably answer that. I was simply addressing the concept of fluctuation. It could very well be PH, although my instinct tells me it's the CO2 since that is the element that plants need, not PH. If the supply is constantly swinging plants can't properly function and start "degrading" and that is when algae see the opportunity. But again, just guessing.
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Hi Folks,
The species Audouinella is the most common in our tanks, according to the literature. In a copy of The Barr Report*, the author concludes "Results from pH experiments showed best photosynthetic performances under pH 8.5 or 6.5 for all but one species**, indicating higher affinity for inorganic carbon as bicarbonate or indistinct use of bicarbonate and free carbon dioxide". Thus, from a pH perspective, it looks as if any BBA in our tanks will grow most rapidly at a water column pH of around 8. As for pH fluctuations, the magnitude of these will depend on water alkalinity/KH and CO2 injection rate.
* Volume 3, Issue 3
** I think the exception may be Compsopogon (Staghorn)
JPC
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