Red Algae/BBA - An Update

[jaypeecee]

Hi Everyone,

Just want to link to a scientific paper that is relevant to the topic being discussed in this thread...

(PDF) Effects of temperature, irradiance and photoperiod on growth and pigment content in some freshwater red algae in culture

PDF | SUMMARY The responses of relative growth rate (% day–1) and pigment content (chlorophyll a, phycocyanin and phycoerythrin) to temperature,... | Find, read and cite all the research you need on ResearchGate

www.researchgate.net

JPC

 

[jaypeecee]

Hi Everyone,

Me again!

And here's another...

https://www.scielo.br/j/bjpp/a/rHppXC9wzR36c4yGbjfW3hQ/?format=pdf&lang=en

I recommend reading the opening words in the Introduction of this paper on page 24.

JPC

 

[jaypeecee]

I think what your suggesting is light that not far off from what is commonly used in horticultural which have their large lumps in the blue (450-500nm range) and even more so in the red (~650-750 range)...

Hi @MichaelJ

No, I'm not suggesting horticultural lighting. I don't think many aquarists would be happy with a pink glow in their lounge, living room or anywhere else for that matter. I suspect the answer lies in LED lighting that replicates natural daylight. From my point of view, I see a problem with present-day LED lighting sold under the guise of - wait for it - full spectrum. Trouble is that each LED emits light at a given wavelength plus or minus a few nanometres. The result is lighting that is a collection of peaks and troughs.

This is the sort of thing I'm talking about. It's not quite what I was looking for - but it will hopefully illustrate (!) the point that I'm trying to make. Here we go:

natural light versus artificial light

Natural light is full spectrum and dynamic. Full spectrum means that light contains all the colors of the rainbow. Dynamic means that the intensity and mix of colors changes with the time of day. Natural light cycles from bright with a high blue content during the day, to […]

www.sunlightinside.com

JPC

 

[MichaelJ]

Hi @MichaelJ

No, I'm not suggesting horticultural lighting. I don't think many aquarists would be happy with a pink glow in their lounge, living room or anywhere else for that matter. I suspect the answer lies in LED lighting that replicates natural daylight. From my point of view, I see a problem with present-day LED lighting sold under the guise of - wait for it - full spectrum. Trouble is that each LED emits light at a given wavelength plus or minus a few nanometres. The result is lighting that is a collection of peaks and troughs.

Hi @jaypeecee Yes, I like the uniformity of the power distribution of natural day light - perhaps with a slight coolness to it. Thats more or less what I aim for in my own tanks. I am not entirely sure if any affordable Aquarium lights can spectrally emulate that. You can certainly emulate the look of it, but it is still rather spiky.

Cheers,
Michael

 

[jaypeecee]

Hi Everyone,

I'm in a quandary. I don't feel that we've brought this thread to a satisfactory conclusion yet. Does anyone agree with me? Or, is BBA a topic that needs no further discussion for the time being? I would value others' thoughts on this. For me, there are still some unanswered questions:

[1] Is water pH important?
[2] Is CO2 stability important?
[3] Which ferts, if any, are important?
[4] Is light spectrum important?
[5] Is DOC/DOM important?

Although we've already touched on the above, I don't think we've arrived at any definitive conclusions. And I, for one, would like to find time to take part in other topics.

JPC

 

[MichaelJ]

Hi Everyone,

I'm in a quandary. I don't feel that we've brought this thread to a satisfactory conclusion yet. Does anyone agree with me? Or, is BBA a topic that needs no further discussion for the time being? I would value others' thoughts on this. For me, there are still some unanswered questions:

Hi @jaypeecee This is my take - NASA bullet point style:

[1] Is water pH important?

* Within "limits" probably not. Very high pH have a tendency to hamper uptake of certain nutrients by plants thus weakening the plants, so ultimately High pH may exacerbate BBA if they already gained a foothold.

[2] Is CO2 stability important?

I would say, definitely. CO2 Fluctuation and BBA , furthermore is one of recommendations if you deliberately wish to cultivate BBA!

[3] Which ferts, if any, are important?

Deficiencies of fertilizer (like the stuff we dose) that would weaken the plants and allow BBA to roam, yes. Excess of in-organic fertilizers is probably not an issue as far as I can tell.

[4] Is light spectrum important?

It might be, if other favorable conditions for the BBA's are met, otherwise not.

[5] Is DOC/DOM important?

Dissolved Organic Carbon / Dissolved Organic Material such as waste? Definitely a major factor.

I added;

[6] Light intensity

As this drives CO2 and nutrient demand in general, I would say that is a major factor as well, if nutrients demands are not met an plants are weakened. And this is also one of the recommendations if you deliberately wish to grow BBA.

--

I suppose BBA and algae in general will remain a super-open topic for discussion 🙂

Cheers,
Michael

 

[sparkyweasel]

The result is lighting that is a collection of peaks and troughs.

Known as a discontinuous spectrum.
I have always had the best results from incandescent bulbs, which have a continuous spectrum. Of course they are no longer available for domestic purposes.

 

[jaypeecee]

Hi @MichaelJ

Thank you so much for your reply. It's very much appreciated. Tomorrow, I hope to add my replies to the questions posed. It will be interesting to see where we agree or disagree. One of the observations I've made about being the starter of a new thread is that I feel a sense of responsibility to bring the thread to a satisfactory conclusion. I don't like to leave things open-ended if at all possible. Now, that approach may be appropriate for a project manager with a team allocated to a particular task. But, in a forum setting, the team may change on a daily, nay, hourly basis. So, reaching consensus is invariably elusive, isn't it? Still, keeps us out of mischief!

JPC

 

[John q]

I'm in a quandary. I don't feel that we've brought this thread to a satisfactory conclusion yet.

And we never will. What causes bba part 27....

[1] Is water pH important?
[2] Is CO2 stability important?
[3] Which ferts, if any, are important?
[4] Is light spectrum important?
[5] Is DOC/DOM important?

My quick answers
1) No ph is irrelevant.
2) Yes
3) npk and trace elements for the plants. For algae the same.
4) No.
5) Yes.

 

[jaypeecee]

Known as a discontinuous spectrum.
I have always had the best results from incandescent bulbs, which have a continuous spectrum. Of course they are no longer available for domestic purposes.

Hi @sparkyweasel

Great to hear from you and thanks for your reply. The more I look at the discontinuous spectrum of present-day LED lighting for plants, it doesn't seem right.

I have made progress investigating some of the very latest LED technology and I'm cautiously excited with some companies. There are LEDs becoming available that very closely replicate daylight from 400nm - 700nm and a bit more below and above this range. And, there are no breaks in this spectrum. Furthermore, some companies obviously are interested in breaking into the aquatics market. One such company is:

Aqurium Lighting | YUJILEDS

YUJILEDS® provide targeted lighting for aquatic plants and coral reef, imitate natural environment lighting to restore natural landscapes.

www.yujiintl.com

You may need to be patient with their website taking time to load.

JPC

 

[MichaelJ]

Hi @MichaelJ

Thank you so much for your reply. It's very much appreciated. Tomorrow, I hope to add my replies to the questions posed. It will be interesting to see where we agree or disagree. One of the observations I've made about being the starter of a new thread is that I feel a sense of responsibility to bring the thread to a satisfactory conclusion.I don't like to leave things open-ended if at all possible.

Hi @jaypeecee I think that is putting too tall an order on yourself. It's an important topic - just judging from the amount BBA related threads we have here on UKAPS - and it's been discussed for as long as I can remember being in this hobby - back in the dark ages everything was hearsay and anecdotal 🙂 I believe what I said earlier that the main factors being waste, stable CO2 and light intensity lack of ferts and stability thereof is the main-cause.... IF your struggling with BBA due to the aforementioned reasons, then spectrum and certain minerals in excess (such as Iron) may play a role, otherwise not.... Just to make it abundantly clear: I do not believe spectrum, and the certain minerals that BBA thrive on such as Iron, by itself will cause BBA, but if your cultivating BBA you can increase the yield by excess Iron and "optimizing" your spectrum for the BBA. I hope that works 🙂 ...

Cheers,
Michael

 

[jaypeecee]

And we never will. What causes bba part 27....

Hi @John q

So, should we give up now and has this discussion all been a waste of time?

JPC

 

[jaypeecee]

Hi @jaypeecee I think that is putting too tall an order on yourself.

Hi @MichaelJ

I very much appreciate your feedback. And it strikes a chord.

A big 'thank you', my friend.

JPC

 

[John q]

Absolutely not @jaypeecee .. the only way to find out the answers to these questions is by getting factual, tested answers. Most folks would rather quote some scientific papers or suggest dubious reasons why bba occurs. WE need to test these theory's otherwise threads like this are useless. Is anyone prepared to test any of these hypothesis.. ? I suspect not.

 

[jaypeecee]

...the only way to find out the answers to these questions is by getting factual, tested answers. Most folks would rather quote some scientific papers or suggest dubious reasons why bba occurs. WE need to test these theory's otherwise threads like this are useless. Is anyone prepared to test any of these hypothesis.. ? I suspect not.

Hi @John q

I simply don't get it. So, people would rather put up with getting BBA and all the inconvenience that it brings rather than take part in collective experiments to try to determine the root cause(s) of BBA. Am I the only aquarist that would rather do things the other way around? If that really is the case, then I think I'll take up embroidery or stamp-collecting. (No offence to these two hobbies - I bet the relaxation works wonders!).

FYI, I always have active experiments running 24/7. That includes right now. It's so rewarding making new discoveries. It's what gets me out of bed on a morning.

JPC

WE need to test these theory's otherwise threads like this are useless.

Hi again, @John q

So, you really do think I/we have been wasting our time discussing BBA in this thread. Great!

JPC

 

[John q]

So, you really do think I/we have been wasting our time discussing BBA in this thread.

Not at all We (me and you) are prepared to test our theories. Discussing without testing is in my opinion a waste of time.

 

[X3NiTH]

I have been Cobalt limiting a tank for over 3 years and only one waterchange in two years (last waterchange a year ago was a change from remineralised RO/DI to remineralised 33TDS tapwater), EI fertilisation (own recipe) and 5x overdosing BioCO2 (Humic and Fulvic acids), CO2 @30ppm. There are no fish in the tank only an increasing number of bladder snail and the statement is not advocacy for keeping fish without waterchanges

It is a long term experiment with recent maintenance, I wiped the inside glass trimmed the Vallis and turned the stones, no waterchange and added a couple of Echinodorous Purparea, left the detritus in-situ.

Parameters are written on the tank.



Here’s the tank with Rhodophyta at its worst.



The tank became very dark due to the Vallis on the surface, this picture is taken with room lights off and shows how it appeared in person (maybe a little brighter, this is a personal comparison without light adjusted eyes in the dark after just turning off the room light and matching picture exposure to what I was seeing).



There’s a lot of plants on the top of the tank cutting the light.



This is how the Rhodophyta represents itself on hardscape.






Let’s look at the Crypts next.





How about the Anubias.







There has been a lot of tissue loss in this tank with Buce and Schismatoglottis because on a few occasions the tank went without micro for a couple of weeks either because the dosing lines blocked or the dosing bag was empty.




Enough of that let’s have a look at the surviving Buce (not very firmly attached after two years on disintegrating bogwood).




This is the only tuft of BBA, this was a mistake as I accidentally spilled about a table spoon of marine water into this tank recently when doing maintenance on the tank above, technically the end of the experiment but I’ve shrugged my shoulders and continued with things and made changes to increase lighting by one third to test triggering BBA growth spread if I can (it’s technically way more than .

Tank before the Vallis trim. The explosion in growth was increase in light due to the plants above the aquarium being moved.




Here’s the Vallis out the tank before trimming.



🙂

 

[hypnogogia]

Am I the only aquarist that would rather do things the other way around?

I doubt it, but some folks only have one aquarium and are not in a position to experiment as such. We make changes when stuff appears not to work, and observe the results of those changes, learning as we go along.

 

[MichaelJ]

I have been Cobalt limiting a tank for over 3 years and only one waterchange in two years (last waterchange a year ago was a change from remineralised RO/DI to remineralised 33TDS tapwater), EI fertilisation (own recipe) and 5x overdosing BioCO2 (Humic and Fulvic acids), CO2 @30ppm. There are no fish in the tank only an increasing number of bladder snail and the statement is not advocacy for keeping fish without waterchanges

It is a long term experiment with recent maintenance, I wiped the inside glass trimmed the Vallis and turned the stones, no waterchange and added a couple of Echinodorous Purparea, left the detritus in-situ.

Parameters are written on the tank.

View attachment 181652

Here’s the tank with Rhodophyta at its worst.

View attachment 181653

The tank became very dark due to the Vallis on the surface, this picture is taken with room lights off and shows how it appeared in person (maybe a little brighter, this is a personal comparison without light adjusted eyes in the dark after just turning off the room light and matching picture exposure to what I was seeing).

View attachment 181675

There’s a lot of plants on the top of the tank cutting the light.

View attachment 181674

This is how the Rhodophyta represents itself on hardscape.

View attachment 181655
View attachment 181656
View attachment 181658
View attachment 181657

Let’s look at the Crypts next.

View attachment 181659
View attachment 181660
View attachment 181661

How about the Anubias.

View attachment 181662
View attachment 181663
View attachment 181664
View attachment 181665
View attachment 181666

There has been a lot of tissue loss in this tank with Buce and Schismatoglottis because on a few occasions the tank went without micro for a couple of weeks either because the dosing lines blocked or the dosing bag was empty.

View attachment 181667
View attachment 181668

Enough of that let’s have a look at the surviving Buce (not very firmly attached after two years on disintegrating bogwood).

View attachment 181669
View attachment 181670

This is the only tuft of BBA, this was a mistake as I accidentally spilled about a table spoon of marine water into this tank recently when doing maintenance on the tank above, technically the end of the experiment but I’ve shrugged my shoulders and continued with things and made changes to increase lighting by one third to test triggering BBA growth spread if I can (it’s technically way more than .

Tank before the Vallis trim. The explosion in growth was increase in light due to the plants above the aquarium being moved.

View attachment 181671
View attachment 181672

Here’s the Vallis out the tank before trimming.

View attachment 181673

🙂

Wow that is wild... Those Vallis are long! Is that a 100 ppm of NO3 written there? ... Cobalt limiting you say? I dont even dose Cobalt 🙂 How much of that would/should we dose under "non-limited" conditions, if I may ask?

 

[jaypeecee]

I have been Cobalt limiting a tank for over 3 years...

Hi @X3NiTH

Is this experiment the result of a discussion you and I had some time ago? Was it three years ago? Oh, how time flies when you're enjoying yourself!

Great to see those Vallisneria.

JPC