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Practical application of lean fertilizer dosing
- Thread starter MichaelJ
- Start date
Hi all,
There is nowhere else to go.
cheers Darrel
That is it, they definitely do.
Yes, as soon as they've said
There is nowhere else to go.
cheers Darrel
GreggZ
Member
OK then NH4. Back to watching my 32 species of plants grow now. They must not have got the memo about Urea!😀
Same here
(retired dentist).During my career on CPD courses I came across some outdated ideas/techniques/treatments which have enough evidence against them, that they should not be used as better more efficient techniques/treatments can be used. This can be true esp. of teaching institutes change very slowly whilst cutting edge practices change fast with good leadership/CPD and clinical governance peer review etc. I came across two forms of treatment that could be used to treat the same condition with same outcome, expect one took four time longer so cost x4 and was more painful, which would you choose!! Yet on the 'best practice guide done by 'four peers' it said either treatment was suitable for treatment of the same condition for patients. It just so happen that three of the four peers had practices which used the old technique of treatment keeping them four times busier.
Companies wasn't transparent with there findings/claims ( data on file was typical) and often sales person knew very little about the goods they was selling, a few probing questions soon sorted them out, later in my career I didn't bother with the sales team.
I can only speak from my experiences, however I fail to see why it shouldn't be the same of all disciplines of science.
So trust nothing, keep an opened mind, be respectful of others beliefs -esp. when there is no good evidence to dispute their beliefs and no concrete evidence to support yours. I am sure Edison was aware that AC current was the future even when he was pushing DC. Change takes time.
Taken from Tropica plant growth specialised fertiliser post#16
Well its not just KNO3 as the [K]/ (w/w%) will exceed what they quote
plantnoobdude
Member
this is the probably the reason why tropica uses nh4no3. it satisfies the vast majority of aquatic plants with nh4 content, and the plants in the niche that prefer no3 from the no3 content. let me know if the link works.
LondonDragon
Member
There's the experiment 😉 Greggz time to get some Urea! Since I suffer badly with eczema I think I am going to order some too! At least when I do tank maintenance, I will be soothing my hands 🙂
GreggZ
Member
LOL. I wouldn't get your expectations too high. I have tried it. Many people I know have tried it. None are using it after trying it.
In the scheme of things a small sample but I vouch for all their plant growing skills. In fact, they all have tanks that anyone would aspire to.
But still following along and waiting for that "eureka" moment!
LondonDragon
Member
Maybe I will stick to hand cream then! 😉 the plants don't have any issues 😉
But interesting that you say that, as people have been talking about it for over a decade and some swear by it, yet where are these journals with the proof, the preachers never actually show any tanks they have created? We should just take their word for it?
There has been a handful of people that preach it to the point of exhaustion in the forum with no evidence whatsoever and just want members in UKAPS to be their Guinea pigs? I am still waiting for the scientific evidence... prove us wrong, please!
I am happy this being discussed on separate topics, it's interesting to see the arguments for it and the evidence (latter is lacking), would be great for these guys to come in and create a journal or an article with full details of what they did over a period of time and well documented that someone else could follow, so far is a lot of mumbo jumbo!
MichaelJ
Member
hmmm.... It escapes me why the Mods/Admins are in on mocking this conversation? We genuinely tried to frame this conversation to avoid a repeat of the failure of the "Lean dosing pro and con"-thread where we had to wade through a bunch of noise to pick up on each others reply... we obviously failed.. Badge me as sensitive, but I can't help feeling just a little bit that this is a sign that this conversation is not really welcome here on UKAPS. And call me naive, but I though @George Farmer (who's Aquascaping book inspired me to sign up and participate on this forum, instead of just frequently visiting as a guest) founded this forum to advance the hobby and give people a platform to hash out different approaches? I just want to grow more challenging colorful aquatic stem-plants in one of my low-tech/low-CO2 aquariums for me and my family to enjoy, and hopefully share that success (or failure) with the community here 🙁
Cheers,
Michael
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LondonDragon
Member
That is pretty simple and has been covered here quite a lot in various topics and journals.
I have repeated that a couple of times in this thread already, too. Also take a look at this thread , the values to aim for redder plants! But you have to be careful as other might suffer in the process, like someone mentioned before is finding the sweet spot!
Also to encourage redder you need to starve the plants, so daily dosing is not an option, you need to dose 2-3 times a week, so the plants have a day or two of limited ferts in the tank.
I will ask to tone it down, the issue is we have been over this path again and again, and every time it just goes round in circles when it doesn't need to go! Because all the information is already here and people are already doing what you are trying to achieve.
Djoko Sauza
Member
Couldn't agree more. Sorry that your thread is being derailed like this. So please, if you're not interested then don't post. If you feel the need to post, just do so and move on.
I'm pretty sure @MichaelJ can read, so if you let him know that what he's trying to achieve is nothing new and still he keeps going, he must have his reasons.
I personally like the lean concept, it reminds me of @dw1305 's Duckweed Index. However, I believe all this talk about ratios and magic formulas to be mostly bs. And on top of that I have absolutely no interest in growing fancy stem plants. Still I'm watching with interest.
So don't get discouraged, all experiments are worth documenting and sharing for the good of this hobby.
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MichaelJ
Member
Hi @LondonDragon,
Well, I guess I'll better go start that journal instead 🙂
Cheers,
Michael
Thanks for the link! ... Good to know when I get to the stage where I begin to nit-pick about the reddishness of the plants... 🙂 I am definitely not there yet, but hope to get there for sure.
Appreciated! 🙏
I guess I just haven't been around long enough to feel the fatigue from these conversations (but I am getting there...) - I'll bet that this discussion is not going away.
I would love to hear from more of those people who can do this in a low-tech/low-CO2 environment.
Well, I guess I'll better go start that journal instead 🙂
Cheers,
Michael
KirstyF
Member
Also agreeing here. Not mod specific but just in general.
These folks are grown ups. If they want to give something a whirl to see if it works for them then why not.
They aren’t newbs at risk of accidentally crashing their tanks due to total lack of experience and they I don’t think they need to be steered away from their plans to an established something else.
They just need to be given the space to do their thing and anyone interested in following along, contributing positive comment, thrashing through a few thoughts or theories then great.
Folks who think it’s nonsense or it’s been done before etc etc etc…..Well, I think these guys probably got that message already.
I’ve absolutely no doubt that those people have completely genuine and evidenceable reasons for their positions but if they don't support the theory (which is completely fine) surely we can at least support the endeavour?
Nothing wrong with a bit of challenge but it would be nice not to see quite so many ‘knock backs’ to these established UKAPS family members.
Regardless of folks opinions, ultimately no-one should be made to feel just plain rotten about what they are trying to do and trying to share.
What if your beliefs changes in the next few years? Just like the belief that you cannot have high lights, low to no Co2 or nutrients without getting algae.
I will take my hat off to the person/team that prove it and shake their hands . But High light low CO2/nutrients just doesn't balance the equation in my head at my present level of understanding, this will be the same for many others IMO. If you can grow crops at low levels of nutrients farmers would be doing it and not buying NPK blends for crops.
Show us the evidence is all many have asked - without a body a person can't dead- show the body of evidence that mis proves our beliefs is all we/some ask 😘
LondonDragon
Member
It all depends on the definition of high light, like everything else. Is my A900 high light with a Twinstar E900? I reckon medium at most! Hence my dosing and CO2 levels are pretty low! Third of EI index and a bottle of CO2 lasted me over 18 months! It also depends how long you run your lights for over the tank! I have two 12l nanos with 5w of LED and no CO2, micro dosing when I remember, but I only run the lights for 4.5 hours a day! my 60 litter also 10 watts of lights and I run that 8 hours a day! no algea in either and plant growth is fine!
The 2 12 liter nanos with buces and crypts and mosses! Fair enough low demanding plants, but I like an easy life 😉
it's all about in the definition and the detail like photo period etc... I am not saying it cannot be done, course it can, but its not for the average noob to start with those methods, first learn how to grow plants and then tinker later!
MichaelJ
Member
I hear you @Zeus. It also didn't jive with my understanding either, but saw enough anecdotal evidence to try it out - here is an example:
I am under no illusion that I will be able to pull this off in my first attempt. I don't even know if we know all the details here that made it work... I hope I have the persistence to keep it going even if I fail my first few attempts. I think you would agree that this would be pretty cool to replicate and understand? 😎
Cheers,
Michael
aquanoobie
Member
Why is the Lean Team not allowed to experiment? Maybe if you let them try they may fail. What's the risk?
