Practical application of lean fertilizer dosing

[MichaelJ]

LOL I love this comment! But I think those buying in really do believe they are on to something new.

Hi @GreggZ That is not a true depiction of reality. Nowhere publicly or privately have I seen anyone proclaim they think this is something new overall. It's different all right from other mainstream approaches and there might in fact be some wrinkles to it that improves upon previous approaches.

Tom Barr has lean dosing tanks. So do a bunch of other people that I know well.

That is comforting to know. I was worried for a moment that I was chasing my tail

Correct me if I am wrong but this thread is not really about "lean" dosing, which is simply dosing less nutrients. That's a pretty easy concept. It's really about the "Happi" method which is a VERY specific way of lean dosing, with high light, medium CO2, and "lean" dosing with a specific ingredients, ratios, and "recipes".

You might be right about that. I am broadly following @Happi's advice on this.

What most don't know is that this method has been around for a VERY long time as well.

Yes, its not new - I think we leaners are slowly starting to wrap our heads around that revelation

It's not cutting edge,

Got it. Things that are not new are very rarely cutting edge either

and it's not a new frontier.

Got it. Definitely nothing new here and definitely not frontier

Happi and his group (Marcel, Sol) have been talking about this for over a decade on multiple different sites.

Yes, why wouldn't they... they believe in it, have good experience with it, believe its reproducible and can help curious intermediate plant-noobs like myself so why shouldn't they share their experiences? I for one commend their persistence in doing so!

For some reason it's never caught on.

Except among @Happi's cohorts including @Sudipta, @macek.g and other luminaries such as Tom Barr and a bunch of other people that you know well I figure But seriously, this approach is not for everyone.

Who knows maybe it will be different this time? Keep the updates coming and we will find out.

Sure thing @GreggZ - I just hope the advice I get will allow me to grow some more challenging stem plants and perhaps I will pick up some insights along the way. Otherwise I will bug you to help me replicate your beautiful Rainbow tank without Rainbow fish and CO2 🙂

Cheers,
Michael

 

[Easternlethal]

I don’t really think we need to look much further beyond the advice of pros like Filipe and perhaps the videos posted above for the answers we’re looking for

it's a great video but I don't know... I kind of feel it's just an introduction and barely scratching the surface

success for me is never having to replenish the substrate or utilise root tabs, fewer water changes, growing high light plants, not having to dose (like Filipe I also only does K2so4 and Fe. but for my plants I also need MGSO4 and CaCl)

 

[aquanoobie]

Tom Barr has lean dosing tanks. So do a bunch of other people that I know well.

Then why so many people here are doing everything they can to make it as difficult as possible to talk about it.

 

[Easternlethal]

Then why so many people here are doing everything they can to make it as difficult as possible to talk about it.

its a process of discovery isn't it? we have a thesis and speculate / experiment about it until it gets discarded because there's nothing new or it leads to a genuinely something new

i get the feeling that many are still grappling with the concept and there is still scepticism over whether its really different from 1/4 EI or whatever.

i can only say that for me it is fundamentally different because EI and most other methods are about cycling the water to remove and reset excess whereas lean dosing is about trying to create conditions where the tank generates its own nutrients and takes care of itself indefinitely, so the theoretical goal is to add and remove nothing (except light and co2) and let the substrate and water generate the food needed for the fish and plants. I believe that one has to come to terms with this theoretical goal in order to be a convert otherwise yes, lean dosing is nothing more than just another scaled-down fertilisation method

 

[erwin123]

Thats an easy one for me to define. Being able to successfully grow the following stem plants and keep them healthy:

Rotala Colorata
Rotala Wallichii
Ammannia Senegalensis
Ammannia Sulawesi
Alternanthera Rosanervig

I specifically picked these plants because they are all plants I have tried before and failed with, while everything else in the tank, mostly plants in the easy category did very well.

Cheers,
Michael

I purchased Ammannia Gracilis in submersed pink form like what many internet photos show, which thin slender pink leaves. In my tank the Gracilis converted from this delicate pink form to a green form with thick green stems and large leaves which were orange nearer the light. So I'm really interested in seeing what 'form' your Ammannia's take in the tank and whether certain conditions (including fertilisation) result in the Ammannias taking a different form.

I have the same issue with Ludwigia Sphaerocarpa which is a mystery to me. I bought one submersed from a hobbyist in this beautiful yellow form but in my tank it is green with small leaves.

 

[MichaelJ]

I purchased Ammannia Gracilis in submersed pink form like what many internet photos show, which thin slender pink leaves. In my tank the Gracilis converted from this delicate pink form to a green form with thick green stems and large leaves which were orange nearer the light. So I'm really interested in seeing what 'form' your Ammannia's take in the tank and whether certain conditions (including fertilisation) result in the Ammannias taking a different form.

I have the same issue with Ludwigia Sphaerocarpa which is a mystery to me. I bought one submersed from a hobbyist in this beautiful yellow form but in my tank it is green with small leaves.

Hi @erwin123 I just put the plants in a couple of days ago… the plant were curled up pretty badly after been floating for a week - they came in pretty scrawny looking without roots, but they are actually recovering and are starting to straightening out nicely. I will definitely keep the thread and my journal - if I ever get that going - posted.

Cheers,
Michael

 

[Hanuman]

 

[Easternlethal]

wouldn't be a real forum if this doesn't happen

 

[Zeus.]

Looking forward to all these new journals with these concepts being tested

Me too, then we can follow the journals and summarise/discuss the progress in this thread
For each journal I would suggest that if the OP could supply as much detail as possible about their Hardware, lean dosing parameters (DIY or commercial), [CO2]/DC colour, RO/rain water/water report for tap water, WCs, inmates and regular Pics along the way, noting any deviation form the initial lean dosing parameters
@MichaelJ 'if' folk in the group do a Journal, could please update the first post with the links to the journals so folk can find them easy.

I am very open minded about the 'experiment'. Its the vision and grit of the 'group' of precipitants that's important. Re inventing the wheel always gets a comments some constructive some dismissive. Been their when the IFC Calculator was started and also when I used duel CO2 injection/solenoids. I found being as transparent as possible helpful. Sharing the journey is always helpful to the hobby.

'When you rock the boat, you always make a few waves' and some comments may seem dismissive, however most are just trying to be helpful in their own way 😉

 

[GreggZ]

Except among @Happi's cohorts including @Sudipta, @macek.g and other luminaries such as Tom Barr and a bunch of other people that you know well I figure But seriously, this approach is not for everyone.

Sudipta doses thrive, wrong ratios for the Happi method. MaceK.g said his tank does best with KNO3 not Urea and his K is not in the Happi ratio. Tom Barr's head would explode if you said he was dosing the Happi method. There were epic battles between Tom and Happi about this years ago.

And yes I do have many friends from around the world in the hobby. I feel fortunate I get to pick their brains on a regular basis.

Here's the difference. Lean dosing is easy. You keep lowering dosing until it brings the widest range of plants to peak health at one time. Could be with about any fertilizer out there. And much has to do with your particular tank. Biggest factors are how much light, the mix of plants, and the overall plant mass. It's also a moving target. Tanks mass changes and so does nutrients uptake. And a tank full of Ammannia is quite different than a tank full of nutrient hungry stems like most Ludwigia.

In the end you can dose EI at 1/4 and for the vast majority of people it is considered lean dosing. But my understanding is that this thread is really about the Happi method. Urea based with a very specific set of ratios (Marschener). In the other thread this got repeated over and over.

What would be interesting to me is if you could make this work really well over a broad range of plants. And then slowly swap KNO3 for Urea, increase K, and increase micros and see what happens.

And if this only about keeping a very small subset of plants happy, that has been done too. Just take a look at Vin's Rotala Kill Tank. No dosing and VERY rich substrate which works well on a small subset of plants.

 

[plantnoobdude]

MaceK.g said his tank does best with KNO3 not Urea and his K is not in the Happi ratio.

"It is true, at least in my case, when using urea, I had 2x faster gains, which resulted in cutting the plants 2x a week, which with so many plants took too much time, the better option for me was the mix of UREA + KNO3 or Cano3, Mgno3."

Lean dosing pros and cons

I am always keen for an experiment. I will continue with the urea dosing for now and in a few months see what happens when I withdraw it. I am also willing to replace the Urea with KNO3 once things are stable, to see what happens. Sorry I have argue that. If you go down that road then it...

www.ukaps.org

 

[GreggZ]

"It is true, at least in my case, when using urea, I had 2x faster gains, which resulted in cutting the plants 2x a week, which with so many plants took too much time, the better option for me was the mix of UREA + KNO3 or Cano3, Mgno3."

Lean dosing pros and cons

I am always keen for an experiment. I will continue with the urea dosing for now and in a few months see what happens when I withdraw it. I am also willing to replace the Urea with KNO3 once things are stable, to see what happens. Sorry I have argue that. If you go down that road then it...

www.ukaps.org

You left out the next line............

I have been dosing different combinations, but the best results are NO3 in the range of 5-12 ppm per week.

 

[plantnoobdude]

You left out the next line............

I have been dosing different combinations, but the best results are NO3 in the range of 5-12 ppm per week.

I take this to mean, no3 equivelant of urea-N + N dosed as No3.
so, total N converted into no3.
many people do not dose ammoniacal sources of N so it is useful to have the no3 equivelant

 

[plantnoobdude]

@GreggZ

Lean dosing pros and cons

I am always keen for an experiment. I will continue with the urea dosing for now and in a few months see what happens when I withdraw it. I am also willing to replace the Urea with KNO3 once things are stable, to see what happens. Sorry I have argue that. If you go down that road then it...

www.ukaps.org

"Well, this range gives me the best and the most stable results
PO4-0.1-0.5
K-8-15
as for NO3, I was doing the UREA + KNO3 mix
for example :
7ppm NO3 from KNO3 and 5 NO3 from UREA"

so, no, macek doesn't report best growth when using kno3 only.

 

[GreggZ]

I take this to mean, no3 equivelant of urea-N + N dosed as No3.
so total N converted into no3.

Who knows. We can ask him sometime. But likely has little relevance in the scheme of things. If someone adds a small bit of Urea to NO3 dosing about the same as having a few fish and feeding them. IMO splitting hairs but that's just me.

 

[Hanuman]

I wanted to have the information straight from the source so I asked the source:

 

[GreggZ]

"Well, this range gives me the best and the most stable results
PO4-0.1-0.5
K-8-15
as for NO3, I was doing the UREA + KNO3 mix
for example :
7ppm NO3 from KNO3 and 5 NO3 from UREA"

Yes well still off. K is 3x to 7x too high for Happi method.

And vast majority of people will tell you NO3 source matters little. These arguments get exhausting. I am going to my den and stare at my plants for a bit, many of which have been happily growing in the tank for longer than most have been in the hobby. Soothes me and calms my mind. I think we sometimes loose focus as to what this hobby is all about.

All that said will be watching to see when results are posted. Hoping for the best.

My approach is similar to tropica or Marchner as already mentioned before. Weekly target of:
N 3 (containing 50-75% urea/nh4 components)
P 0.3
K 2-3
Fe 0.1

 

[plantnoobdude]

I wanted to have the information straight from the source so I asked the source:
View attachment 186592

So, it is most likely they use nh4no3.

Molar mass NH4NO3

Molar mass calculator computes molar mass, molecular weight and elemental composition of any given compound.

www.webqc.org

two atoms N per molecule of nh4no3, 1 for Nh4, one for No3

 

[Geoffrey Rea]

These arguments get exhausting. I am going to my den and stare at my plants for a bit, many of which have been happily growing in the tank for longer than most have been in the hobby. Soothes me and calms my mind. I think we sometimes loose focus as to what this hobby is all about.

 

[aquanoobie]

But likely has little relevance in the scheme of things. If someone adds a small bit of Urea to NO3 dosing about the same as having a few fish and feeding them. IMO splitting hairs but that's just me.

You know there is no amount of food to make your fish to produce urea.