aquanoobie
Member
Thank you @dw1305
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Practical application of lean fertilizer dosing
- Thread starter MichaelJ
- Start date
I see quite a bit of oppressed/censored victim play here in a transparent attempt to distract from the sporadic and less well documented data. Funny claims when admins/mods are literally called out and being overly polite about it. If your post is still there you could have done something more fruitful with it and post the progress of actual growing plants with the lean dosing application. I've yet to see the journal being deleted because it was using the 'lean method' and there is little chance somebody is sneaking in at night to add extra NO3 to your tanks to sabotage your efforts. Critical thinking is a feature not a bug of a free society.
As this thread is about practical application of lean fertilizing, here is an example practical application. I'm using NO3 as a proxy to keep things easy to read.
As this thread is about practical application of lean fertilizing, here is an example practical application. I'm using NO3 as a proxy to keep things easy to read.
- Adding 3.5 ppm NO3 per week ( actual NO3 not NH4 or urea, thats leaner than Hapy is suggesting ) - It's lean right ?
- but I only did 50% water change every 30 days... well 3.5 ppm NO3 per week is still lean right?
- and I front load for the entire month right after the water change 15ppm NO3... well 3.5 ppm NO3 per week is still lean right?
- after the one macro dose at the start, water is at around 25 ppm NO3 ... well it will get down in time , maybe not so lean
- that's about it for dosing. Except it isn't ... fish feeding was rather heavy and plant uptake apparently pretty much matched fish nitrogenous waste production ...hmm
- at the end of the month the tank's water was frequently between 20 and 30 ppm NO3 ... well that's not lean.
🙏 - Honestly I don't consider my tank to be nice at all. It's just a mishmash of plants. There is no much structure in my tank. I keep removing/adding plants just because I am curious to see how they grow. That's it really. I'm not so much interested in making a nice scape. I've tried it and I'm not good at it.
You should do a journal. It's really mostly for you at the end to keep track of things. I should have done it years ago.
KirstyF
Member
Hi @Sudipta
Just a couple of quick queries.
Do you heat/cool your tanks to maintain fairly consistent temps now or are you getting natural seasonal variations?
And… is there a temperature at which you find algae issues notably increase?
Just curious to see if you have personally found an optimal temp for ‘smooth running’
plantnoobdude
Member
now I will try to answer these questions.
The aim is to provide nutrients in ratios close to that of what scientific data reports. to promote healthy plant growth and over many different species and minimal growth of algae. while paying attention to ratios, chelators and nutrient antagonism and it's effect.
ultimately, this may include the use of ammoniacal nitrogen compounds, such as nh4no3, or urea and different chelators/none.
in an Ideal scenario, this will reduce water changes and put less stress on co2 demand.
I will try and describe it.
N weekly values,
for high tech, 1-3ppm N weekly depending on plant mass. for low tech, can be less. this will be mostly from nh4/urea.
P something like 0.1 to 0.4ppm weekly.
K this one is tricky, but I will say anywhere from 0.6ppm K to 3ppm K should be sufficient if running a tank with very little N from other sources (substrate, fish load). but you may need more to balance with Mg or high fish load, rich substrate.
micros.
anywhere from 0.05~0.2ppm range Fe weekly as proxy. in some cases we may need to add more due to high kh, or gh.
Mn: focus on maintaining roughly 2:1 ratio of Fe:Mn.
rich substrate if youd like.
high light
low/moderate co2.
The aim is to provide nutrients in ratios close to that of what scientific data reports. to promote healthy plant growth and over many different species and minimal growth of algae. while paying attention to ratios, chelators and nutrient antagonism and it's effect.
ultimately, this may include the use of ammoniacal nitrogen compounds, such as nh4no3, or urea and different chelators/none.
in an Ideal scenario, this will reduce water changes and put less stress on co2 demand.
I will try and describe it.
N weekly values,
for high tech, 1-3ppm N weekly depending on plant mass. for low tech, can be less. this will be mostly from nh4/urea.
P something like 0.1 to 0.4ppm weekly.
K this one is tricky, but I will say anywhere from 0.6ppm K to 3ppm K should be sufficient if running a tank with very little N from other sources (substrate, fish load). but you may need more to balance with Mg or high fish load, rich substrate.
micros.
anywhere from 0.05~0.2ppm range Fe weekly as proxy. in some cases we may need to add more due to high kh, or gh.
Mn: focus on maintaining roughly 2:1 ratio of Fe:Mn.
rich substrate if youd like.
high light
low/moderate co2.
Last edited by a moderator:
aquanoobie
Member
For those of us using NO3 and PO4 systems, 1 - 3 ppm N weekly have the same quantity of nitrogen as 4.4 - 13.3 ppm NO3. And 0.1 - 0.4 ppm P weekly is 0.3 - 1.2 ppm PO4.
So where does this differ from Tropica’s TPN+ then? 🤷🏻♂️
Check ✅
Check ✅
Check ✅
Check ✅
Check ✅
Have raised this query before and got blown off. You’ve described Tropica TPN+ …
plantnoobdude
Member
yes, TPN works well and Happis dosing is quite similar to TPN. I haven't said it;s different from TPN, infact his micros are based off of tpn and many of the ratio he uses are quite similar. that is why @MichaelJ is using TPN in his tank currently. as for your query being blown off, I apologize, I must've missed it.
MichaelJ
Member
Hi Tim, That is not the case in my opinion. Here are the specifics for my experiment:
NO CO2 injection
RO+DI water remineralized to <1 KH and ~4 GH (my RO+DI water almost always sits for 24 hours before I use it)
pH 6.2-6.4 (I will probably lower my pH to 6.0 or just a smidge under)
Temperature at 23 C
Low water column dosing - targeting ~1 ppm of N weekly using Tropica Specialized (NH4NO3).
Mature substrate about 7 cm deep.
Osmocote root tabs containing NH4 every month or two (in very small quantities)
Light: Start lower 40 PAR and eventually adjust up to +120 PAR at the substrate level (I don't have a PAR meter so I'll have to guesstimate this - or get a cheap one).
Weekly 40% WC
No uprooting
Plenty of circulation/filtration to provide adequate CO2/Oxygen/nutrient distribution.
12 hour photo period (I may have to dial that down to 8-10 hours or less, let's see).
Courtesy of @Happi, @Sudipta and others.
As for the scientific fitness of this approach, it sort of gives me at least a tiny bit of confidence that this approach have been applied successfully by a fellow hobbyist who also happens to be an active research scientist in the field of biochemistry 🙂 and furthermore, that the approach have been applied by at least 5 others of his fellow hobbyists with decent results - not to mention @Happi, @macek.g @plantnoobdude and probably others on this forums who might not even care to participate in this discussion.
Get over it, this topic of low-CO2/low dosing/high-light is not going away!
And NO! this approach is NOT for beginners or casual hobbyists! We have plenty of information here on UKAPS on mainstream and well-understood methods for growing aquatic plants in both low-tech and high-tech aquariums with far fewer prerequisites!
Cheers,
Michael
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G
Guest
Guest
Well done. Look forward to regular updates through your well documented journal 😉
Right… Think I follow @plantnoobdude
So you’re up to where @JamesC was in 2008 on this forum fourteen years ago:
ukaps.org
James’ Planted Tank website also outlines in plain instructions how to create 1KH 5GH water using RO:
Correct me if I’m wrong, but wouldn’t “dose 2.33ml of TPN+ per 100 litres per day “ and “use James’ Planted Tank remineralisation instructions to standardise your water” be more easily communicated rather than:
Then you can just instruct folks who want to try this method to use:
Whatever those figures are and however you choose to measure them. Then see what happens in other peoples tanks?
So you’re up to where @JamesC was in 2008 on this forum fourteen years ago:
Tropica TPN+ match using ammonium nitrate
Been playing with my calculator again and come up with an almost exact match for Tropica's TPN+. Rather than use potassium nitrate for a source of nitrogen I have used ammonium nitrate which is what I'm led to believe is what is in TPN+. Using ammonium nitrate seems to tie all the figures in...
ukaps.org
James’ Planted Tank website also outlines in plain instructions how to create 1KH 5GH water using RO:
Correct me if I’m wrong, but wouldn’t “dose 2.33ml of TPN+ per 100 litres per day “ and “use James’ Planted Tank remineralisation instructions to standardise your water” be more easily communicated rather than:
Then you can just instruct folks who want to try this method to use:
Whatever those figures are and however you choose to measure them. Then see what happens in other peoples tanks?
Get over it, this topic of low-CO2/low dosing/high-light is not going away!
You alright there @MichaelJ ?
You appear to be having a moment.
MichaelJ
Member
MichaelJ
Member
Hi @Geoffrey Rea & @plantnoobdude Excuse my ignorance what is Tropica TPN+ ? - I that what Tropica Specialized used to be called in the UK or something?
Cheers,
Michael
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LondonDragon
Member
It was its original name 😉
TPN+ = Tropica Plant Nutrition Plus
This is why there is some head scratching occurring @MichaelJ
The ‘Happi Dosing Method’ is TPN+ dosing at recommended levels for high tech systems with extra confusion (descriptions across a thousand posts plus, two threads and from different members).
Did ask at the beginning of the last thread whether TPN+ was what was being referred to as a proxy for lean dosing… ALL the way back in the beginning.
Then it’s suggested (I think, not quite sure) that this could then be combined with no Co2 and high light to test? Is that appraisal correct?
Tanks with those attributes have found themselves regularly in the ‘algae help’ section before, hence why we’re in dialogue asking how this lean dosing thingy me jiggy is different? Then Sudipta’s tank…
@GreggZ suggestion of investigating the tank @Sudipta has running gives you an example of a tank with attributes you’re interested in, ready made. Definitely seems like the tank to focus on if the above appraisal is correct and you are both local to each other.
You stated what @Sudipta does already:
To which he agrees:
And added:
He isn’t using TPN+ dosing though, so struggling to understand why that keeps appearing. Many would argue, and have argued, that the substrate matters an awful lot. But then there’s comments that say it’s optional:
High ammonia containing soils also have drawbacks at startup, which once again @Sudipta has kindly let us know about, but he doesn’t say that was a cause of algal problems, that’s my own interpretation:
He does say pre-cycling the tank without lights is important (dark start) until ammonia levels are around 1ppm before planting, which one would assume is to prevent algal problems.
Supposedly you are using TPN+ dosing as well @MichaelJ unless @plantnoobdude is mistaken:
There seems to be all sorts of interpretations flying about which is a little confusing to say the least.
Journals are concise and only from the authors mouth which is why that suggestion keeps coming up, to mitigate any confusion.
If you aren’t using TPN+ then the suggestion in post #248 is also pointless 🤷🏻♂️
MichaelJ
Member
Again, there is no such product called TPN+ It's called Tropica Specialised Nutrition. (or Tropica Specialized for us savages that doesn't speak English) Its highly confusing we are discussing non-existing products - at least for my feeble mind... (Yes, @Geoffrey Rea I am still all-right but I might be getting close to having a moment here )
Here are some hard facts:
The guaranteed analysis that @Zeus. pulled up from 2013 (9 years ago!) @Zeus., Thanks for that btw. ! - is referring to a product called Tropica Plant Growth Specialised Fertilizer. with 1.3% N
And further @Hanuman's inquiry into the matter - thanks for that too - also refers to Tropica Specialized Nutrition. also with 1.3% N
EDIT: Fixed above links!
Cheers,
Michael
)Here are some hard facts:
The guaranteed analysis that @Zeus. pulled up from 2013 (9 years ago!) @Zeus., Thanks for that btw. ! - is referring to a product called Tropica Plant Growth Specialised Fertilizer. with 1.3% N
And further @Hanuman's inquiry into the matter - thanks for that too - also refers to Tropica Specialized Nutrition. also with 1.3% N
EDIT: Fixed above links!
Cheers,
Michael
plantnoobdude
Member
apologies!Again, there is no such product called TPN+ It's called Tropica Specialised Nutrition. (or Tropica Specialized for us savages that doesn't speak English) Its highly confusing we are discussing non-existing products - at least for my feeble mind... (Yes, @Geoffrey Rea I am still all-right but I might be getting close to having a moment here
Ta daa…. 🪄
Tropica TPN+ match using ammonium nitrate
Been playing with my calculator again and come up with an almost exact match for Tropica's TPN+. Rather than use potassium nitrate for a source of nitrogen I have used ammonium nitrate which is what I'm led to believe is what is in TPN+. Using ammonium nitrate seems to tie all the figures in...
ukaps.org
Rotala Butterfly Calculator wouldn’t agree, it’s there.
It was why I asked specifically which form of Tropica dosing Happi was referring to over a thousand posts ago. Formula changes… got ignored…
How to clone it:
And it also matches the newly named, newly branded ‘Happi Dosing Method’ 🎉 :
If all anyone wanted to see is how TPN+ performs under 1KH 5GH water and a dark green drop checker you only needed to check out the 1200 journal in the footnote.
Looked better under ADA though:
PS be careful ordering ammonium nitrate or you may find you gather some more fans of your thread 👮🏻 🚨
7 hours every day for the 20 gal non-CO2 supplemented tank. This includes 30 minutes of ramp up and down times in the beginning and the end of photoperiod.
