Newbie with Low Light + CO2 Supplemented Tank

[foxfish]

Yes you are right they do, looks like some sort of impeller situated at the top that I guess is designed to break up the C02 bubbles?

 

[m_attt]

how much do theese affect flow?

 

[mdhardy01]

I used to run a similar one by sera and yes it did drop the flow a bit but not massively . The tmc ones have two impellers though I think one at the top and one at the bottoms not sure if this would affect flow more
And I think they only take 12mm pipe
Matt

 

[m_attt]

ah would be too small anyway then, thanks for the reply.

 

[faizal]

Hi foxfish. Sorry for the delay in reply but my laptop malfunctioned ,...I think it has virus. So I am actually posting this from the workplace. Can't upload any photos yet but I have that link that you requested for. It's the website of the store.

http://www.hueyhung.com.tw

Check it out under "Co2 Systems".

Faizal

I will post a pic once my alptop is up & running. Sorry for the delay again.

 

[foxfish]

Thanks for the link, they look really good especially connected externally.
I cant find the price or details of P&P on that site but I will have more time to search later today

 

[faizal]

I am really sorry for such a long silence. I had been having some problems with my computer.

Here's how the tank looks as of today:

I had replaced the melted Limnophila vietnam species with Rotala rotundifolia. My Blyxa have completely disappeared!! But there are some new shoots now. The tank is almost 1 month old. It's amazing how fast the Blyxas lost their leaves. But the new leaves are appearing healthy. I am not too sure if you could make out the new Blyxa shoots there in between the large rock on the left and the smaller central rock. What a transformation ,...huh?

I guess it's all part of the learning experience.

No major algae issues. The Brown Diatom algae have mostly disappeared from most of the Staurogyne's leaves.

Replaced the Eheim pump & the poor dribbling spray bar 2 weeks ago with the Tetra Tec. The water coming out of the spray bars are sooo much better now. It's the peak of summer season here. Temperature in my tank is about 33'C most of the time.

Some of the rotalas had dissintegrated initially ,....I think it was because I accidentally closed the needle valve on 2 occasions when I was fiddling with the co2 system.

I had also connected the co2 reactor to the filter outflow of my Tetratec. The bps is at 3 bps but I turn on the gas just 2 hours prior to lights on.

I have placed 2 drop checkers : One at the upper right side of the front glass while the other one is on the lower left side of the rear aquarium glass. They both turn Lime Green when they lights come on. I think the inline reactor is doing a reasonably nice job. I would only be able to tell , I suppose, in about a week's time. I had really made a bad mistake of accidentally turning off the needle valve.

I am pretty sure the flow is much better than before I hooked up the tetra tec,....

Doing 2-3 large (50%) water change per week. Still dosing EI. On water change days ,....I change the water first,...then dose my fertilizers. I can't believe how fast the filter intake & outflow tubes get stained brown!!! It only takes them a week before they go brown on me again. I clean the filter tubes with brush & tap water but i clean the filter media itself with the drained tank water. The white fine sponge in the media basket seems to turn brown everyweek too. I just squeeze it in the bucket containing old tank water and re insert it back into the media bucket. I hope I am doing all the right thing here.

Clive,...I remember reading one of your posts today in the filtration forum where you had actually posted a picture to demonstrate the flow coming out of your spray bars. I was shocked to see such an amazing force of water actually hitting against the front glass of your tank which looked amazing by the way .

I have 2 spray bars in my tank. The water from the spray bar doesn't nearly touch my front glass,....probably just half way. Do you think it would be a good idea if I hooked up both filter returns onto the same spray bar from either ends and hence have just ONE spray bar running along the entire length of the tank. Wouldn't this increase the strength of the water flow coming out from 2 filters via a single spray bar?

I am truly sorry again for the late reply.

Faizal

 

[ceg4048]

Hi Faizal,
Hope you got your computer problems sorted. The browning shows you how much organic waste is produced by the plants as a direct results of their feeding on large amounts of carbon and nutrients. This is why we do the water changes, to rid the tank of these waste products.

It's a very tricky business trying to attach multiple tanks to the same bar because each pump tends to back-pressure the other. It's best to have one bar per pump and to have high energy from that pump. High flow, properly implemented, solves a lot of problems and covers up a lot of mistakes. People fail to recognize this and always seem to focus on other things like high lighting. When you see what a difference excellent flow makes you'll never look at a tank in the same way.

Pretty soon you'll need to start pruning those back plants which will help to make them bushier.

Cheers,

 

[Johno2090]

Faiziel if your after faster spray bars, just shorten them! I run two filters with 2 spraybars, both run half the length along the tank and end in the middle so that there is a small gap between the two. Increases the flow a lot throughout the tank yet the turnover remains the same.

You can see what i mean here:

 

[faizal]

Faiziel if your after faster spray bars, just shorten them! I run two filters with 2 spraybars, both run half the length along the tank and end in the middle so that there is a small gap between the two. Increases the flow a lot throughout the tank yet the turnover remains the same.

Thank you John . Should I opt for that wouldn't I need to have another co2 reactor hooked up to the other cannister filter as well? My reactor is currently hooked up to my Tetra Tec's filter outflow. The other thing is,...both my filters aren't identical,....I'd bet that the tetra tec has a much higher output velocity than that China made filter. Wouldn't this create an uneven vortex like current within the tank itself? PLEASE CORRECT ME IF I AM WRONG HERE. THIS IS ALL BASED ON PURE ASSUMPTION BY AN UNEXPERIENCED MIND. If you feel that these concerns are negligible then I will give it a shot.

It's best to have one bar per pump and to have high energy from that pump. High flow, properly implemented, solves a lot of problems and covers up a lot of mistakes. People fail to recognize this and always seem to focus on other things like high lighting. When you see what a difference excellent flow makes you'll never look at a tank in the same way.

Hey Clive !! Yeah,...I think I had virus in the computer. I didn't have time to take it to the shop because work had been hectic too the last 2 weeks. It's a good thing that you warned me against it. I was really planning on hooking it up tomorrow morning. I am not going to do it now.

Gosh!! Clive,... I hope I don't need to get another bigger filter immediately. Although,....I can see where it is leading to ,....once the plants are all grown in.
I guess that PAR meter & Chiller will have to wait for now,...huh? Because if my current filter set up is not providing enough circulation,....I guess its time to start saving for an Eheim 2075 (Professional) rated at 330 Gallons/Hr. Or is it a bit of an overkill for a tank like mine (17 gallons)?

Another thing I would like to share here (which I'm sure many are already familiar with) is that Flourite is a very clean substrate BUT it does pose a bit of an issue when planting. The substrate doesnt exactly hold the stems nicely as sand / soil would. I think if I had mixed it earlier with Flourite Black Sand (i.e. 2 parts Flourite Black sand : 1 part Plain Flourite) ,...it would have helped me to overcome these challanges. Yes. A bit too late for that now. :silent:

Clive do you think I should go in for that Eheim or anything else similar to 330 Gallons/hr rating? Or could I make do with my current set up until all the plants are all grown in,...and then opt for a change? I'll post a pic of the water coming out of my spray bars when I do the water change tomorrow morning,..okay?

It's nice to be back here.

Take care guys.

Faizal

 

[faizal]

By the way!!! That's a really neat looking tank & aquascaping there John !!!!

 

[faizal]

Clive,...just to make sure that I am DOSING adequately,....could you please confirm if MY EI regime is fine?

MY TANK VOLUME IS 17 US GALLONS

Sat : 50% Water Change(WC) + 1/4 teasp Equilibrium + 8.5ml Seachem Excel

Sun: 5ml Seachem Flourish+ 1.8ml Excel+ Tetra Tec's filter and hose cleaning

Mon: 50% WC followed by 1/4 teasp KNO3 + 1/16 teasp KH2PO4+ 8.5ml Excel

Tues: 5ml Flourish + 1.8ml Excel + Filter & hose cleaning of the China made cannister

Wed: 1/4 KNO3 + 1/16 KH2PO4 + 1.8ml Excel

Thu: 50% WC followed by 5ml Flourish + 8.5ml Excel

Fri: 1/4 teasp KNO3 + 1/16 teasp KH2PO4

Just noticed one of the NEW shoots of Hygrophila Difformis were yellow in colour. I was not sure if this was due to the co2 fluctuation that the tank experienced this last week OR if I was dosing less than adequate amounts of NO3 or Iron ??
But I have Flourite for substrate.

Here's how it looks :

 

[faizal]

Here's a picture of the force of water coming out from my spray bars :

Would this be considered as adequate?

There has been no further yellowing of the new leaves on Hygrophila Difformis. Not sure what caused it in the first place .

I would really appreciate any thoughts on this please.

 

[ceg4048]

..Gosh!! Clive,... I hope I don't need to get another bigger filter immediately. Although,....I can see where it is leading to ,....once the plants are all grown in.
I guess that PAR meter & Chiller will have to wait for now,...huh? Because if my current filter set up is not providing enough circulation,....I guess its time to start saving for an Eheim 2075 (Professional) rated at 330 Gallons/Hr. Or is it a bit of an overkill for a tank like mine (17 gallons)?

Well mate, I don't even know how to spell overkill, although you should only need a 170-200GPH rated filter (in accordance with the 10X rule.) I guess adding flow of multiple pumps doesn't always equate to a single pump of the given flow rate. Based on that picture i would rather see the jet streams reach the front glass.

There has been no further yellowing of the new leaves on Hygrophila Difformis. Not sure what caused it in the first place .

You may want to look at your trace dosing. Yellowing in new leaves is typically associated with a trace deficiency, which could be Fe, Mg, or even Mn. If you see this again then try doubling the traces. Your NPK looks OK to me.

Cheers,

 

[faizal]

Well mate, I don't even know how to spell overkill, although you should only need a 170-200GPH rated filter (in accordance with the 10X rule.) I guess adding flow of multiple pumps doesn't always equate to a single pump of the given flow rate. Based on that picture i would rather see the jet streams reach the front glass.

Hi Clive!! Nice to see you online!!! I am running on a budget with regards to my tank for now,....I will definetely get that new filter but for now (i.e. another 2-3 weeks) would it be okay if I try to shorten both the spray bars as John had suggested earlier?(because when I tried that ,....the jet stream actually did reach the front glass.)

 

[faizal]

You may want to look at your trace dosing. Yellowing in new leaves is typically associated with a trace deficiency, which could be Fe, Mg, or even Mn. If you see this again then try doubling the traces. Your NPK looks OK to me.
Cheers,

Okay Clive. Will do that from my next Trace dosing day.

Currently I am adding for TRACES :

Seachem Flourish 5ml 3 times a week

1/4 teaspoon of Seachem Equilibrium ONCE a week

Should I then increase it to 10ml - 3 TIMES A WEEK for SEACHEM FLOURISH & 1/2 teaspoon of SEACHEM EQUILIBRIUM ONCE A WEEK?? Would this be about right?

I am not to happy to sound like a broken record talking about my tank's high temperature again & again,...but do you think that all this could in some way be related to the one who should not be mentioned again,......(Temperature ). Well,...Higher temp = Higher metabolic rates= Higher demand & stress for co2 & nutrients)

Because my current dosing regime is actually based on EI for a high light tank. Just curious y'know? I am trying to understand all this & arrive at a big picture.

I WOULD JUST LIKE TO SAY THAT THIS IS AN AMAZING FORUM. I HAVE NEVER,....I REPEAT,...NEVER COME ACROSS A FORUM WHERE EVERYONE HELPS A NEWBIE LIKE YOU ALL DO. AND I AM NOT JUST TALKING ABOUT ME HERE.

AND CLIVE,.....YOU ARE MY "YODA". I truly understand here that this doesn't make me a Jedi,....maybe his assistant but not a Jedi. That's probably gonna take awhile.

Ok then. Bye for now.

 

[ceg4048]

...I truly understand here that this doesn't make me a Jedi,....maybe his assistant but not a Jedi. That's probably gonna take awhile.

Hi mate, you'll have to defeat Darth Vader and destroy The Death Star before you can even be considered as Jedi material...In any case, remember that The Force will always be with you. 8)

Currently I am adding for TRACES :
Seachem Flourish 5ml 3 times a week
1/4 teaspoon of Seachem Equilibrium ONCE a week
Should I then increase it to 10ml - 3 TIMES A WEEK for SEACHEM FLOURISH & 1/2 teaspoon of SEACHEM EQUILIBRIUM ONCE A WEEK?? Would this be about right?

Yes, that's a good adjustment if the condition persists. But didn't you say that the condition no longer exists? If you're not having the yellowing any more then there is no point in making a dosing adjustment.

would it be okay if I try to shorten both the spray bars as John had suggested earlier?(because when I tried that ,....the jet stream actually did reach the front glass.)

Sure, it's certainly worth a try, but remember that there is always a tradeoff. The Law of Energy Conservation means that by increasing the energy along a shorter distance you will necessarily reduce the energy to nearly zero in the space that you vacated. It's more likely therefore that you will have poorer flow in that volume of water which does not have a spraybar section. So success will depend on what plants are in that "vacated zone" and what spillover flow manages to get squeezed into that zone from the neighbouring higher energy zone.

I am not to happy to sound like a broken record talking about my tank's high temperature again & again,...but do you think that all this could in some way be related to the one who should not be mentioned again,......(Temperature ). Well,...Higher temp = Higher metabolic rates= Higher demand & stress for co2 & nutrients

Yeah, that all sounds reasonable but there is no reason to blame all the problems on stress induced by high temps. These adjustment you are making are the same adjustments that everyone has to make regardless of their working temps. The fact of the matter is that one has to optimize the submerged environment in terms of nutrient/CO2. When this is accomplished then the plants are able to make the adjustments and adapt to whatever stress is being imposed upon them, whether that be higher than normal temperature, lower than normal temperature, higher than normal lighting, whatever..

Here is a standard photo I like to use to illustrate a typical adaptation to high stress. This is a Bacopa growing in a waterway of The Everglades. The stresses are high light, poor CO2 and poor flow. The only adjustment being made here is that the plant lengthens the stem to grow out of the water. You can see that the submerged leaves don't stand a chance. The only way to survive is to grow upwards, so that's what the plant does. If one were to inject massive quantities of CO2 and flow in the vicinity of the submerged leaves, then there would be less incentive for the plant to decay or to grow upwards. It would stay low and branch outwards.

So the idea is to optimize the conditions under which the leaves can uptake to enable them to deal with the stress. Here's Christmas Moss a low temp, low light plant growing under extremely high light and 33/34 degree water temperature. It's no good obsessing over temps because plants can become stressed over a a lot of things, poor flow being one of them. Wherever you live and whatever conditions you have, the solution to the riddle of growth performance is always the same; Excellent flow/distribution, excellent CO2 and excellent nutrients. If you want to obsess over something then these are the things to be neurotic about.When these issues are resolved then it almost doesn't matter what the other conditions are:

Cheers,

 

[faizal]

Thank you. I think I am going to be saying this to you forever,.......

That was the big picture that I was looking for,....

Sure, it's certainly worth a try, but remember that there is always a tradeoff. The Law of Energy Conservation means that by increasing the energy along a shorter distance you will necessarily reduce the energy to nearly zero in the space that you vacated. It's more likely therefore that you will have poorer flow in that volume of water which does not have a spraybar section. So success will depend on what plants are in that "vacated zone" and what spillover flow manages to get squeezed into that zone from the neighbouring higher energy zone.

Thanks for those words of caution Clive,....In that case,..what I plan to do tomorrow is to make the 2 spray bars meet halfway with no gap in between them. Since the china made filter has a lower GPH rating,...I am planning to run its spray bar's course just about 1/3rd way across the total length of the rear wall of the tank. This will be met with the Tetra tec's spray bar (which would be covering the remaining 2/3rds of the total length of the rear wall) from the opposite end. The ends of the two spray bars should be touching each other with no gaps in between them. I hope by doing this,....I would be able to avoid the"Vacated Zone" that you had warned me about. I will post a picture of the set up once it's done tomorrow.

 

[faizal]

Currently I am adding for TRACES :
Seachem Flourish 5ml 3 times a week
1/4 teaspoon of Seachem Equilibrium ONCE a week
Should I then increase it to 10ml - 3 TIMES A WEEK for SEACHEM FLOURISH & 1/2 teaspoon of SEACHEM EQUILIBRIUM ONCE A WEEK?? Would this be about right?

Yes, that's a good adjustment if the condition persists. But didn't you say that the condition no longer exists? If you're not having the yellowing any more then there is no point in making a dosing adjustment.

Yes. I don't see any further yellowing. I was just being paranoid y'know? First tank & all ,.....

 

[faizal]

After the readjustments of the spray bars. There are now 2 co2 reactors hooked inline with both cannister filters.

Yeah,... I had messed up on my measurement there. There's actually a very small gap there in between the spray bars but since the water jet is criss crossing there in the middle,....I thought I could get away with it. HOPE THIS IS BETTER??

I have noticed that some of the Staurogyne are starting to go yellow on me with some brown filamentous algae. I have removed some of them. Some of the older leaves of the H.difformis now have small holes in them.

I am doing 50% Water change 3 times a week. I am going to add some purigen into the tetratec this week.

I am convinced that these are all CO2 related issues. Just kicking myself for not acting upon it earlier. Day 1 of Hopefully-Much-Improved Flow & Distribution. My UP Inline Atomizer isn't still here yet. Awaiting its delivery. I am dealing directly with the importing agent,.....he had never heard about the product prior to my request.

I am also begining to think that maybe the real reason behind that yellowing of the new shoots of the H.difformis could have probably been attributed to poor flow and distribution of the nutrients (despite EI Levels of dosing).