Newbie with Low Light + CO2 Supplemented Tank

[faizal]

Hi everyone. I am just a newbie and I had recentely started off my first freshwater planted aquarium. I read a lot about UKAPS from the threads posted by members in other forums but I never really took the time to visit the website until March of this year. My first impression was ,..."Wow,..What a really well thought out website ." Especially the tutorials and articles section. Everything was expained in a very simple & easy to understand manner.

I signed up and posted my first thread about 3 weeks ago and it's been an amazing learning experience ever since.

So anyways,...I am posting this Journal up with hopes that I can share with other like minded newbies about what the UKAPS moderators had thought me and also to get help from everyone as my tank progresses. Unfortunately this is definitely not about showing off my tank because it is absolutely NOTHING in comparison to most of the tank pictures I have seen here. Just a humble sharing of my experiences with hopes that I can get more help along the way.

Okay,...that said. Here's how my tank looked on the first day that I visited UKAPS :

INITIAL SET UP OF THE FILTER INLET & OUTFLOW PIPES :

Clive had more than just nudged me in the right direction with regards to CO2 Management & Flow Pattern in the tank.
Here's how it looked again after the appropriate adjustments with regards to the water flow pattern:

And this is a picture of Day 1 of Planting:

I am having a bit of a problem now though,...it's Day 4 since set up and although most of the plants are doing well namely the Limnophila "Vietnam" species, Hygrophilla difformis & Hygrophilla polysperma, some old nana petite from my old fish tank and the staurogynes, the Blyxias are some sort of under going a rapid browning of leaves that seems to start from the tip which progresses very fast

I have removed most of the leaves. I am still in the process of tweaking my co2.

Is this normal for Blyxias? Or are they more sensitive to optimal CO2 in comparison to the other plants?

My Dosing regime is:
Saturday= 80% Water chage + 1/4 teaspoon Seachem Equilibrium
Sundays= 5ml Seachem Flourish
Mondays= 1/4 tsp KNO3 + 1/16th tsp KH2PO4
Tuesdays: 5ml Seachem Flourish
Wednesdays= 1/4th tsp KNO3 + 1/16th tsp KH2PO4
Thursdays= 5ml Flourish
Fridays= 1/4 tsp KNO3 + 1/16 tsp KH2PO4

Tank details:
Tank volume : 16.8 US Gallons ( 23.5 inches length, 14 inches height, 12 inches depth)

Lights : 2 T5s of 8 watts each ( Total 16 watts). Photoperiod 8pm till 2am ( 6 Hours)

Filter: 450L/hr rating. China made. Also attached a spray bar to outlet of Eheim pump's(Right rear corner) outlet.

Sustrate: 60% Seachem Flourite + 40% 2-3mm sized inert sand like gravel

Pressurized C02 injection via a ceramic diffuser

The video of Blyxia's rotting can be found here:



If the video is not able to play. Kindly search youtube for Withering Blyxias.
Need help please.

Faizal

 

[ceg4048]

Hi mate,
Looks pretty nice so far. This is your answer:

...more sensitive to optimal CO2 in comparison to the other plants..

They should regrow as long as the CO2 is in good shape. Since you have no fish, don't be afraid to tweak the injection rate so that it is on the high side.

Cheers,

 

[faizal]

Hey Clive!!

Thank you but THE TANK LOOKS THE WAY IT LOOKS THERE BECAUSE OF YOU !!!
NOT ME!!! BUT YOU !!!

I increased the bubble rate to 2 bps last night. The drop checker started off as blue at the time the lights came on but within 2 hrs into the photoperiod,...it turned green. And it remained green even after about 5 hours post lights out time.

The current flow strength from the cannister filter outlet appears relatively stronger than the flow from my Eheim pump's spray bar. This despite the pump being rated 1000L/hr and the cannister rated as 450L. Clive,...do you think that the reason for this could be due to the fact that the diameter of the Pump's Spray Bar being larger than that of my cannister filter outlet?

How does one test to see if he has optimal flow? Most of my plants do sway gently in the "breeze". Would it hurt if I replaced the current pvc (grey) spray bar and the Eheim pump with another big muscled cannister filter? Just a thought or should I keep my hands to my self and let the system settle in?

I freaked out a little when I saw those Blyxias leaves turning brown but a voice in my head (it must have been Morpheus') kept telling me to be patient and keep my hands off the co2 needle valve until the lights go out (then tweak it) and just remove the dead leaves.

All this is really cool, y'know?

Faizal

 

[ceg4048]

Hi mate,
Remember that the dropchecker needs to be lime green (the inside juicy part of the lime) when the lights come on. Blyxa (and other advanced plants) will be in serious trouble if it's blue at this point. That means of course that you'll need to turn the gas on early enough before lights on to achieve this. I would fix this first before contemplating any other changes. CO2 is as much art as science....

Cheers,

 

[faizal]

Thanks Clive.

I will do as you had advised. Sorry for getting carried away there.

So,...I am currently running the tank at 3bps ( I increased the injection rate prior to lights on ). Currently my CO2 injection starts 2 hours prior to lights on time but I think maybe the high temperature of my tank (31- 32'C) is making things a bit tricky (i.e. less gas holding capacity??).

I started my co2 injection 2 hours prior to lights on & at the rate of 3bps,.....the drop checker was bluish-green with a tinge of green forming at the upper half of my JBL Drop Checker. So I think i am getting closer to the preffered range. I am not tweaking it further during lights on period but currently just letting it run its course for the day.

Tomorrow I will increase the injection rate a little further to 4 bps and start the co2 injection 3 hours before lights on.

I hope i am on the right track.

Thank you for setting things straight again.

Faizal

 

[faizal]

Just as an alternative though,...do you think there might be another bushy plants that I could use that's easy on CO2 in case my Blyxas don't make it? Just a thought.

 

[mdhardy01]

Have you thought about turning the gas on 3 hours before lights on?
And if you have no inhabitants why such high temperature?
Matt

 

[ceg4048]

...I think maybe the high temperature of my tank (31- 32'C) is making things a bit tricky (i.e. less gas holding capacity??).

Yes that has a lot to do with it, but also the fact that the tank is open to atmosphere and does not have a tight lid on it. But to keep things in perspective, everyone has these problems, even those people living in cooler climes. People who have planted discus tanks suffer the same dilemma, for example, because they keep the tanks warmer for these fish.

Plants gently swaying in the breeze is as good an indication of any that the flow is excellent. One then only has to be sure that the water that is causing the swaying is properly saturated with nutrients/CO2. If fish were not sensitive to CO2 toxicity then this would be easy to achieve. Finding an efficient way of dissolving the gas within that flow is where the real challenge is. It would be ideal if somehow you could marry your diffuser with your spraybars. Some people inject the gas directly into the external filter so that the filter impeller chops up the bubbles, dissolves the gas better, and then dumps it into the spraybar. So there are a few ways to skin the cat but as long as you understand what the goal is that will enable you to solve the riddle of your particular tank based on the resources you have at your disposal.

Cheers,

 

[faizal]

Hi Matt,...thanks for the suggestion. I have currently started co2 injection 3 hours prior lights on at 4bps. And today by the time the lights came on,..my DC had a lime green colour. My tanks temperature is high because I live in Malaysia, South East Asia.

Unfortunately though,...since my tank's co2 level had been at a sub-optimal range over the past week,...my Blyxas have really taken a hard beating just as Clive had mentioned earlier. I am not so sure if they would be able to recover.

Any suggestions of an alternative midground plant please? How about Limnophila sessiliflora or Cabomba caroliniana or Red Myriophyllum?

Clive,...I came across this inline atomic diffuser by UP --> UP NEW INLINE ATOMISER SYSTEM. One connects it to the cannister filter outflow . Do you think I should opt for one? Would it provide a better co2 dissolution and co2 distribution since it IS directly connected to the spray bar?

I would really like to know your thoughts on this please.

Again ,...any suggestions of an alternative midground bushy plant to replace the Blyxas please?

Faizal

 

[mdhardy01]

There are quite a few members using the up atomiser including myself
The bonus of these is that they produce a mist in the tank which means you can see exactly where the gas is going the co2 is also in direct contact with the plants which im lead to believe is more beneficial to the plants( correct me if I'm wrong Clive )
The down side is that the tank can look slightly cloudy because of the fine co2 mist which some members don't like ( I myself don't mind it) I run mine on a 500l tank and find it very efficient
As for the blyxa I would give it a little more time to recover because once it does it grows like wildfire and at one point I had nearly a full carpet of it
Matt

 

[ceg4048]

Yeah, I agree with Matt. Blyxa stays at the right height for this tank and it's not good to give up on it otherwise you won't be able to grow other plants that have similar needs, so you have to conquer the difficulties with this plant in order to progress. In any case the tank size makes things difficult. Any of the Rotala species will do because they generally have smaller leaves which are more proportional to the smaller tank size. Didiplis diandra also is proportional. Juncus repens (although not my favourite) and any Lilaeopsis are bushy without outgrowing the tank (which would require constant pruning). The plants that you listed would grow annoyingly tall for a midground specimen.

Regarding the inline unit you mentioned, I'd say yes. Anything inline is better than the in-tank disks. If you have the opportunity to get one I would definitely go for it, no question.

Cheers,

 

[faizal]

Did I ever mention that you guys at UKAPS are awesome? No,...scrap that. YOU GUYS ARE AMAZINGLY AWESOME !!!!
I am so sorry but I totally hooked on this group!!!

Thank you so much Matt for your optimistic advise. I have not removed the Blyxas completely. It's just that I had removed so many dying leaves this past week that the plant looks nearly bald. I have replanted them again on the left side of the tank.Hence as a result the right mid- ground region of the tank is looking rather bare . That's the reason why I'm looking for an extra plant. I'll upload a photo soon after a water change this weekend.

Speaking of water changes,...I have been uprooting a lot this past week,...mainly due to the Blyxas rotting. I haven't been doing any water changes after that. I don't see any other algae except but for a small amount of brown algae on 2 of the staurogynes and some on the aquarium glass. If the blyxas are going to take some time to recuperate and since I am going to have to uproot them now and then in order to remove the dead leaves,...will this cause an issue of ammonia spikes. I am using Flourite as substarate. No soils.

Or SHOULD I BE DOING SMALL WATER CHANGES EVERY TIME I UPROOT AND REMOVE THE BLYXA'S DYING LEAVES?

I need to uproot them because I don't just snip off the dying leaves but I sort of peel the leaves off from the main plant from the base of the stalk.

Clive,....yeah I just checked on how Juncus repens looks like & I don't think it's my favourate plant either. You are absolutely right . I won't up on the Blyxas. I had just moved what was left of them to a corner. Initially they were just beneath the T5s,...so I thought maybe if I moved them to the side a bit,...they won't be getting too much of the direct light and in doing so, I was hoping to further reduce the present co2 stress that they are undergoing. ( I realise here that I am running a low light tank anyways )

Thank you for your choices of plants,...I think I will go with the rotala species for that bare spot in the tank.

I found this shop selling the UP Inline Atomizer in Singapore. I am sure there must be a place selling the same unit here on the island. I need to do some shopping then.

Thank you and I'll keep you posted.

Faizal

 

[mdhardy01]

As another option you could use Vallis nana ? This is not like the other types of Vallis but stays fairly short but not as short as the blyxa but if planted in a clump could give quite a pleasing look.
Clive quickie for you - am I right in saying that a mist is more beneficial to plants rather than dissolved ?
Matt

 

[Anonymous]

hi im likeing the layout the placement of the rocks seems very well thought out how ever the contrast in coulors and texture of the rocks is a bit dis jointed and would have a more natural feel if they where all the same sort

 

[ceg4048]

Re:

...am I right in saying that a mist is more beneficial to plants rather than dissolved ?

Hi Matt,
Well, the mist-being-better-than-dissolved concept comes from Barr's analysis of some of the more advanced CO2 injection techniques, which involve either implementation of industrial pneumatic injectors (Mazzei), or the pin-wheel type filter impellers which chop the bubbles up into a fine mist.

According to Barr, when very small bubble sizes make contact with the leaf, this effectively means that the CO2 penetrates the boundary layer above the leaf surface (which is usually an obstacle for the gas and nutrients) and approximates atmospheric CO2 availability, which therefore produces better CO2 absorption. So in a way it's like simulating having the leaf out of the water from a CO2 perspective...if that makes any sense.

It's not clear to me though whether the so called atomizers produce bubble sizes small enough to be as effective. It's easy to say that one has a "mist" but how fine is that mist in comparison to the mist created by those advanced techniques? In a real mist you should not be able, with the naked eye, to resolve the size of the bubble. It would appear as a fog or cloud, not as bubbles. Furthermore, the distribution method must force contact between the mist and the leaves. So just having a bunch of bubbles floating around the tank does not necessarily mean that one has a mist in this sense of the word.

If one doesn't have anything approaching a true mist, then in general, bubbles floating around is less effective and less efficient than proper dissolving of the gas into the water, because the bubbles simply escape like balloons at a parade.

Speaking of water changes,...I have been uprooting a lot this past week,...mainly due to the Blyxas rotting. I haven't been doing any water changes after that.

Faizal, the best policy generally is to be very disciplined about water changes. CO2 injected tank produce a lot of organic waste which needs to be removed as often as possible otherwise this exacerbates algal blooms. you should be doing at least a 50% water change 2X-3X per week for the first 6-8 weeks and then just 1X per week after that. Keeping the tank immaculately clean is of vital importance.

Cheers,

 

[faizal]

"ceg4048 wrote : ''Faizal, the best policy generally is to be very disciplined about water changes. CO2 injected tank produce a lot of organic waste which needs to be removed as often as possible otherwise this exacerbates algal blooms. you should be doing at least a 50% water change 2X-3X per week for the first 6-8 weeks and then just 1X per week after that. Keeping the tank immaculately clean is of vital importance.''

But Clive,...I am confused. I thought Barr advocated EI dosing with only ONCE a week water changes to re-set the tank's nutrient levels? If I do 2-3 water changes a week,...wouldn't the levels of my nutrients become sub-optimal? Please correct me if I am wrong here. IF I DO 2-3 TIMES WATER CHANGES A WEEK,...DO I STILL FOLLOW THE NORMAL EI DOSING REGIME ??

My dosing regime is on Page One.

Would it also be a good idea to add Seachem's Purigen in my cannister filter?

 

[faizal]

hi im likeing the layout the placement of the rocks seems very well thought out how ever the contrast in coulors and texture of the rocks is a bit dis jointed and would have a more natural feel if they where all the same sort

Thank you bw577162 Now that you mentioned it,....yes I guess they are a bit dis jointed. Actually I would be very happy if I manage to keep the plants in good health first, y'know?

Once I am convinced of that,...aquascaping is a whole new league for me,...(especially when compared to most of the aquarists here).

I would be very happy indeed if I could just maintain this tank for another year. I cannot think beyond that for now.

Thank you so much for taking the time to look though.

Faizal

 

[gmartins]

"ceg4048 wrote :
But Clive,...I am confused. I thought Barr advocated EI dosing with only ONCE a week water changes to re-set the tank's nutrient levels? If I do 2-3 water changes a week,...wouldn't the levels of my nutrients become sub-optimal? Please correct me if I am wrong here. IF I DO 2-3 TIMES WATER CHANGES A WEEK,...DO I STILL FOLLOW THE NORMAL EI DOSING REGIME ??

this one I can handle

As long as you dose after the water change you'll be ok. you'll never run out of nutrients as you replenish the tank after each water change. So yes, do follow the normal EI dosing regime.

cheers, GM

 

[mdhardy01]

Hi Clive
Thanks for clearing that up,I would say that the up atomiser actually produces very tiny bubbles and not a mist as to your analogy,but I suppose that being as small as they are they are in contact with the leaves and also suspended in the water column for a longer period therefore giving a better dissolution , before using one I was using a aqua medic 1000 and found it hard to get my dc lime without your type of injection rate LOL
Now I get lime dc easier and can tell where my flow is good nod not so good and adjust flow accordingly.
Many thanks Clive
Sorry for the hijack Faizal
Matt

 

[plantbrain]

Re: Re:

According to Barr, when very small bubble sizes make contact with the leaf, this effectively means that the CO2 penetrates the boundary layer above the leaf surface (which is usually an obstacle for the gas and nutrients) and approximates atmospheric CO2 availability, which therefore produces better CO2 absorption. So in a way it's like simulating having the leaf out of the water from a CO2 perspective...if that makes any sense.

It would appear as a fog or cloud, not as bubbles. Furthermore, the distribution method must force contact between the mist and the leaves. So just having a bunch of bubbles floating around the tank does not necessarily mean that one has a mist in this sense of the word.

I only have indirect ways to confirm this idea however.

If we used say air and a mist of this, or N2 gas would be best since it neither degasses nor adds CO2, to break up the boundary layer.......then this would differentiate the forms of the CO2, CO2 gas vs say dissolved CO2[aq].

The boundary layer issue is a biggie though, a sticky gas bubble with adhesion can pull off algae from leaves and increase uptake considerably. More flow can also. Maybe it's the form of gas itself, hard to say. It's just a hypothesis and there's a few others like the boundary layer that might be some if not most of the effect.

One thing folks do seem to agree on, it works very well(misting). I can and have measured differences in growth via O2 ppm's of 10-20% higher for the same pH/KH for CO2 and a CO2 meter which is quite a bit.
Still, a fair amount remains to be tested, confirmed and teased apart.

Just wanted folks to know it's not something that is 100% clear :idea:

Regards,
Tom Barr