Newbie with Low Light + CO2 Supplemented Tank

[plantbrain]

Re:

Hi Clive
Thanks for clearing that up,I would say that the up atomiser actually produces very tiny bubbles and not a mist as to your analogy,but I suppose that being as small as they are they are in contact with the leaves and also suspended in the water column for a longer period therefore giving a better dissolution , before using one I was using a aqua medic 1000 and found it hard to get my dc lime without your type of injection rate LOL
Now I get lime dc easier and can tell where my flow is good nod not so good and adjust flow accordingly.
Many thanks Clive
Sorry for the hijack Faizal
Matt

Just keep the diffusers clean, good and clean, I soak mine in Tilex(a stronger version of bleach) for about 10 min till they are totally white and return to service. This keeps the mist consistent and tiny.

Regards,
Tom Barr

 

[ceg4048]

Yep, there you go Matt. Straight from the horses mouth. What Tom mentions about the percentage improvement is consistent with what you and other experienced with the atomizer, so faizal should do all right with this.

...The boundary layer issue is a biggie though, a sticky gas bubble with adhesion can pull off algae from leaves and increase uptake considerably. More flow can also. Maybe it's the form of gas itself, hard to say. It's just a hypothesis and there's a few others like the boundary layer that might be some if not most of the effect.

...Still, a fair amount remains to be tested, confirmed and teased apart.

Just wanted folks to know it's not something that is 100% clear :idea:

OK, good stuff. I'd buy the idea of biofilm disruption and boundary layer penetration Tom, but it's interesting that you mention that the form of the gas might be a factor as well. Is there data which indicates higher Rubisco affinity for gaseous versus aqueous CO2? Or would it be an issue of easier transportation across the epidermal cell wall?

Cheers,

 

[faizal]

this one I can handle
As long as you dose after the water change you'll be ok. you'll never run out of nutrients as you replenish the tank after each water change. So yes, do follow the normal EI dosing regime.
cheers, GM

Thank you,....gmartins. Thank you for clearing it up.That was such a simple & effective solution. I will do that from now on.

Sorry for the hijack Faizal Matt

Absolutely no problem at all !! Feel free to hijack it anytime. I 'm making so many new friends here!!! . If you all lived close by ,..I would have asked you to come home for dinner this weekend

I wake up in the morning and find Tom Barr posting on this thread!!!! This just keeps getting better and better everyday!!

Sorry. Do excuse my dropping jaw

........Just wanted folks to know it's not something that is 100% clear :idea:

Regards,
Tom Barr

I read that many times over,...but it is way way way out of my league. But thank you,....Big Fan here!!!

Yep, there you go Matt. Straight from the horses mouth. What Tom mentions about the percentage improvement is consistent with what you and other experienced with the atomizer, so faizal should do all right with this.

Cheers,

Hey Clive ,...Thank you for clearing it up . So I had just found the shop that sells the UP Inline Atomizer but they have run out of stock. Apparently the new stock is due for arrival next month. If anything in line would be a good idea,....I think I will try to get a simple inline co2 reactor that I saw in one of the shops,...I don't have a picture but its about 15cm in height and roughly about 4cm in diameter. One can't put bio balls inthem because it has this impeller at the bottom of the chamber which is supposed to chop up the co2 bubbles and the outlet is fed into spraybars. I thought i'd use one temporarily while I wait for my Atomizer y'know? Thanks for everything.

 

[mdhardy01]

Hi faizal
Thanks for the invite if I'm ever in Malaysia i might take you up on the dinner offer.
When you get the reactor post up some pics so we can see what it's like, I'm sure there are other members like me who are always on the lookout for a different method of breaking up and injecting gas.
Clive would a Eheim 2180 be powerful enough to run a mazzei injector or an fx5? I have both and would love to give one a go.
Matt

 

[ceg4048]

....I think I will try to get a simple inline co2 reactor that I saw in one of the shops,...I don't have a picture but its about 15cm in height and roughly about 4cm in diameter. One can't put bio balls inthem because it has this impeller at the bottom of the chamber which is supposed to chop up the co2 bubbles and the outlet is fed into spraybars. I thought i'd use one temporarily while I wait for my Atomizer y'know? Thanks for everything.

Hi mate, yeah this sounds like a good idea. What powers the impeller, electric? If it works well you may not even need to get the atomizer.

would a Eheim 2180 be powerful enough to run a mazzei injector or an fx5? I have both and would love to give one a go.

Hi Matt, the industrial injectors are typically used as a solution in large to very large tanks (100G and up) and with dedicated external pumps. One also has to design a circuit and match the injectors size to the pump capacity. I think zig was going to try this using an FX5 but I'm not sure if he had any success. In any case it's a much more complicated affair so I can't give you a straightforward answer to that. :?

Cheers,

 

[mdhardy01]

Thanks for that Clive
I've looked into it a bit more and it's not just a case of sticking one inline as i thought looks more like you have to add a bypass
I'll think about it a bit more and if I do go ahead I'll start a post
Thanks again
Matt

 

[faizal]

Hi faizal
Thanks for the invite if I'm ever in Malaysia i might take you up on the dinner offer.
When you get the reactor post up some pics so we can see what it's like, I'm sure there are other members like me who are always on the lookout for a different method of breaking up and injecting gas.
Matt

You are most welcome, my friend. If you do happen make that visit, we'd be glad to have you home for dinner !!!

Yes. I will be going to the shop this evening to get the new little co2 reactor. Will post the picture as soon as possible

Hi mate, yeah this sounds like a good idea. What powers the impeller, electric? If it works well you may not even need to get the atomizer.

Cheers,

That's the thing,....I don't think it runs on anything really. I think it's most probably driven by the outflow current of the filter. I will be sure to post the picture once I get it.

 

[faizal]

Clive,...remember when you first told me that the Drop Checker has to be Green as the inside juicy part of a lime, my first instinct was to cut one open. I should have followed that instinct through. What I did instead was I imagined what the juicy part's colour would have been like and then I went to the Cal Aqua Website and referred to this picture chart:

The problem is the lime green according to this chart is no. 3,....but when I did finally cut open a lime yesterday,..I noticed that my lime's green was more of a green that was in between No.4-5. MY JBL DROP CHECKER READS 4 WHEN THE LIGHTS COME ON. WITHIN 2 HOURS IT TURNS INTO NO. 5.

Then 2 days ago,...I noticed this :

The 2 plants on the RIGHT SIDE of the tray that you see below were actually growing right next to the co2 diffuser. The browning had already started on their lower half.

Now I know that for good growth,....not only should the co2 be at a good level but there should also be the following :

1. A Light level that compliments in its intensity so as to keep the co2 & nutrient stress at a minimal range.
2. A Good Flow Rate and Distribution
3. Good Fertilization Regime.

I am dosing EI,...so its not the ferts,...My lights are okay (I think,...because I don't have a PAR meter but the Hygrophila Polysperma & Hygrophila Difformis are slowly forming roots and the Saturogyne are also doing well)

Then after pulling out all the dead / dying plants ,...I did a major water change. That's when I noticed this :

MY 4 YEAR OLD COULD "WEE-WEE" FURTHER THAN THAT !!!

So if my DC is showing the NO.4 in that chart and within 2 hrs becomes N0.5,....does that mean I have enough co2?
And if I do have enough co2,...is it safe to presume that despite having enough co2 in the water,..the above Limnophila vietnam sp melted due to poor circulation in my tank (Grey PVC Spray Bar with poor outflow)??

I am not feeling dejected but I am glad that I am trying to diagnose the issue at hand. I think I'm going to get a Tetra tec ex90 this evening. It's rated at 720 Litres/Hr. My aquarium is 64 Litres. assuming there's a loss of 40% in water turn over capacity of the filter due to filter media,..I should be getting a 432Litres / hr. This coupled with the spary bar from the China made filter,..should give me about a collective 10 times water turn over rate by both filters combined.

Or do you think there could be another reason for the melt?

I'd really love to hear your thoughts on these, guys. Help needed again.

 

[mdhardy01]

Hi faizal
Looking at the plants the tops seem to be doing ok the melt is at the bottom closer to the substrate which would to me indicate poor flow. The dc colour tells you that your co2 is good higher up which is why the plant tops look ok so an upgrade on the filter would be a good idea or you could try making another spray bar with smaller holes spaced further apart you could try this before outlaying on a new filter? But if you want to get the pump out of the tank then go for it?
As to flow rates ( Clive correct me if I'm wrong) the 10x rule is based on stated flow not actual flow once media is added so you would have more than enough with the new filter?
Matt

 

[ceg4048]

Hi faizal,
That flow coming out of the bars is completely unacceptable. If you have a 16 gallon tank then acceptable combined flow rating should be somewhere around 160 gallons per hour. If it just dribbles out of the spraybar as you show then there is either something wrong with the filter or it's flow rating woefully inadequate.

It's very difficult for the gas to dissolve and find it's way to every nook and cranny. Melting and disintegration is only ever due to poor CO2, and as Matt says, you can see that the leaves in the more open areas are in better contact with the gas than are the leaves/stem hidden behind rocks and tucked away.

Can you see now why we try and dissuade people from concentrating too much on sexy mega-lighting? Distribution of CO2 is THE single most difficult project associated with the planted tank.

Don't get mad, get glad, because you now know the path forward.

Cheers,

 

[faizal]

Sorry,... I never really checked the flow before planting y'know? I just assumed everything was okay. Anyways I think the tank's temperature is also making things a bit challenging ( 32'C ).

I am up for it though ,...I'm lucky I have you guys helping me ,..otherwise I would have been groping in the dark. That would have been much much worse.

So I've got the Tetra Tec ex90 and the new co2 reactor and I will be fixing them up today.
The tetra tec is rated as 720 L/ Hr. I think that's about 190 US Gallons/ Hr,....so as Matt had advised me,...I think I will run the tank with the tetra tec alone. Hope this is fine?

Here's a picture of the reactor

 

[faizal]

The water from the cannister's outflow goes in from the right side. I think it is driven down the reactor by that wheel at the top which itself is run by the cannister filter's outflow water current. The co2 gets mixed up on its way down and then the water travels back up to the top (via that smaller cylindrical chamber that you see within the reactor) and goes out to the spary bars through the larger of the 2 outlets that you see on the TOP LEFT side of the reactor.

My Atomizer is only due for arrival by the end of April,...so I had to do something than just let the tank go y'know? Only one way to find out.

 

[foxfish]

That is an interesting looking reactor, do you have a link for more info?

 

[faizal]

Hi foxfish. I don't have it unfortunately. It was the only reactor that I could find at the shop ,....in fact any aquarium shop here. Most of them sell diffusers only. Anyways I have the cover box lying at home and if you don't mind I could upload a picture of the box later?

 

[faizal]

I remember there was something written on the box that mentioned in order to prevent co2 wasted buid up within the reactor,...one has to manually release the built up co2 gas. I am not sure how this could be done as there are only 2 inlets ( one for co2 and one for the cannister filter outlet) and 1 outlet to the spray bar.

I remeber reading Tom Barr's thread on Double Venturi Co2 Reactor. But he had infact 2 options for releasing the excess trapped co2 within the reactor.

Should I just open the co2 tubing from its inlet every once in awhile to release the excess accumulated co2 or is there another way?

 

[mdhardy01]

Hi faizal
Glad you got the reactor sorted
Don't forget when you set up the tetra tec to use the media from the other filter you could also just have both running as we always say you can never have enough flow but I know that you may not want to much equipment in the tank
Post up a pic once it's all sorted
Matt

 

[mdhardy01]

I remember the something written on the box that said that in order to prevent co2 wasted buid up within the reactor,...one has to manually release the built up co2 gas. I am not sure how this could be done as there are only 2 inlets ( one for co2 and one for the cannister filter outlet) and 1 outlet to the spray bar.

I remeber reading Tom Barr's thread on Double Venturi Co2 Reactor. But he had infact 2 options for releasing the excess trapped co2 within the reactor.

Should I just open the co2 tubing from its inlet every once in awhile to release the excess accumulated co2 or is there another way?

You may get some co2 build up at the top but don't worry about that once the gas turns off it will get dissolved
You could just turn the gas off a little earlier so that the gas in the reactor then gets used
When you first fit it there will be air trapped at the top to get rid of that turn the reactor upside down whilst it's still running the air will then get sucked out the central tube at the bottom this is what you have to do if you want to expel the gas build up to but as I say you don't need to
Matt

 

[faizal]

Hey matt!!! Got it,...okay. I will use 1/2 of the old media in the Tetra tec and keep the other 1/2 in the China made filter. Hope that's okay? And yes. I will post the pics once they are all set up. A long night again !!!

Thanks Matt.

Faizal

 

[faizal]

You may get some co2 build up at the top but don't worry about that once the gas turns off it will get dissolved
You could just turn the gas off a little earlier so that the gas in the reactor then gets used
When you first fit it there will be air trapped at the top to get rid of that turn the reactor upside down whilst it's still running the air will then get sucked out the central tube at the bottom this is what you have to do if you want to expel the gas build up to but as I say you don't need to
Matt

Matt,...you have just taught an old dog a new trick. Thank you, my friend

 

[mdhardy01]

That is an interesting looking reactor, do you have a link for more info?

Hi foxfish
This looks very similar to the tmc reactor
http://www.tmc-ltd.co.uk/planted-tank/a ... fusers.asp
Matt