Major shrimp deaths, feeling like giving them up :(

[sciencefiction]

The tank is fully cycled and mature.

I am sure by now you got plenty of advise mate. But the above is the key to keeping animals healthy and alive. I am not trying to be patronize you or anyone. I am coming from similar experience, that's all. .

You can never tell if a tank is fully cycled or mature because it cycles all the time...it's a 24/7 flux. Things go right or bad every day, and we fishkeepers, the setup, the input, is what influences it. A mature tank means you got the right balance of bacteria, non-pathogenic vs pathogenic, enough oxygen, the right food, the right combination of critters, etc... But one has no way of knowing this unless they have the gear to scientifically examine the setup and even then scientists are poor because they have poor knowledge of fish.. The rule is that if critters are doing fine, behaving fine and naturally, growing fine, then you have it right. If not, then the issue issue is related to cycling, ,density of critters,compatibility of critters, enough filtration, too little flow, too little light,too much light, too much food, too little food, wrong type of food, enough water changes, enough oxygen. Fiddling with chemicals does not help whatsoever even if you're a pro.

I always say, if there are issues, start daily 50% water changes religiously. Decrease the bio load on the tank. Increase filtration, although it takes a while for that to take effect, but a big external filter will help to prevent the same in the future. Critters already affected will not make it but the changes create a stable setup for future critters.

 

[Nick potts]

Hi @Nick potts



You’re over feeding them straight off the bat.



Why? Over feeding and small water changes.



See above.



If you’re adding in that much AE bacter it doesn’t matter. If you follow their recommended feeding it will poison your tank regardless. There’s plenty of youtube videos out there promoting their products but I hazard a bet you’re feeding one tank what most breeders would feed in a dozen tanks without actually asking you any specific questions. They have a vested interest in you getting through their product as fast as possible, but anyone on here with a planted tank with large surface areas available won’t be feeding their cherry shrimp. Their tanks will be infested with them.



Too hot. 20C-22C does just fine. Have bred thousands of cherry shrimp. Lower they can cope, higher is not necessary but they will cope but metabolism will increase.

Disease may also be a consideration as just mentioned.

I think the idea of caring for shrimp has become really profitable but not very helpful.

Thank you for the advise Geoffrey.

To answer some of the above.

I dropped the WC to 5% so i didn't shock anything in the tank with large swings in parameters.

As for the bacter ae, i dose as recommended by Marks Shrimp Tanks i.e a very tiny amount, in this tank it literally is the most minute speck 🙂

For me shrimp in my freshwater tanks just add something extra, i have mostly kept saltwater tanks and always had a good selection of inverts

Thanks

 

[Nick potts]

I am sure by now you got plenty of advise mate. But the above is the key to keeping animals healthy and alive. I am not trying to be patronize you or anyone. I am coming from similar experience, that's all. .

You can never tell if a tank is fully cycled or mature because it cycles all the time...it's a 24/7 flux. Things go right or bad every day, and we fishkeepers, the setup, the input, is what influences it. A mature tank means you got the right balance of bacteria, non-pathogenic vs pathogenic, enough oxygen, the right food, the right combination of critters, etc... But one has no way of knowing this unless they have the gear to scientifically examine the setup and even then scientists are poor because they have poor knowledge of fish.. The rule is that if critters are doing fine, behaving fine and naturally, growing fine, then you have it right. If not, then the issue issue is related to cycling, , density of critters,compatibility of critters, enough filtration, too little flow, too little light too much light, too much food, too little food, wrong type of food, enough water changes, enough oxygen. Fiddling with chemicals does not help whatsoever even if you're a pro.

I always say, if there are issues, start daily 50% water changes religiously. Decrease the bio load on the tank. Increase filtration, although it takes a while for that to take effect, but a big external filter will help to prevent the same in the future. Critters already affected will not make it but the changes setup a stable tank for future critters.

Thank you sciencefiction.

I really thought after 20ish years keeping various tanks I would have no problem with supposedly easy shrimp, but every day is a learning day.

Fish are fine, all eating lots and healthy.

The tank has a 700 LPH HOB with surface skimmer running with bio media and floss.

 

[Geoffrey Rea]

As for the bacter ae, i dose as recommended by Marks Shrimp Tanks i.e a very tiny amount, in this tank it literally is the most minute speck 🙂

And is this getting you good results overall?

 

[sciencefiction]

I dropped the WC to 5% so i didn't shock anything in the tank with large swings in parameters.

Please, increase the water changes to 50%, not drop to 5%. Don't add any chemicals. Let your tank stabilize to what comes out of your tab.
Don't rely on the years of keeping fish. I only got a clue when I started reading, which was about 15 years later.

 

[Nick potts]

And is this getting you good results overall?

I wish i could say, but given the situation

I gather it is a great food source, used by a lot of keepers/breeders for building up a biofilm

 

[Geoffrey Rea]

Apologies if the previous comments seem crass @Nick potts it is definitely not the intention. But this thread has struck a chord as your experience is not unique.

Pretty sure feeding has its place if you’re dealing with hundreds if not thousands of shrimp. However, the amount of cherries we’re considering caring for here is so small that if you provided a tank with nothing other than a sponge filter, substrate and some light they should be fine. From soft as it comes Lancashire water, to RO barely remineralised, to Cambridgeshire hard as it comes tap water - cherry shrimp have bred purely with the surface film available and no outside help. The colony size will be representative of the available food source.

Experience from speaking to others, as well as personal, has strongly led to the conclusion that most shrimp feeding products will only lead to problems or alternative forms of life we find undesirable in our tanks. They’re a con.

Being more practical... Do you have access to a water report for your local area? If calcium carbonate and magnesium are even marginally available in your tap, replenishing the water column regularly with large water changes will help moulting. If this process is hindered it will upset your cherries as they will not be able to grow which is why @Siege and @sciencefiction are offering good (relatively cheap) advice with water changes.

It’s an easier first port of call before investigating disease.

 

[Conort2]

@Nick potts, could you put up a photo of the complete aquarium?

that photo of the dead shrimp shows a pretty dirty substrate and the water looked pretty cloudy however it may have just been that picture.

If it was me i would stop feeding completely. I have hundreds of the things and I don’t target feed them at all, they get whatever they can steal from the fish, which isn’t much. Otherwise they are continually grazing at the biofilm and getting what they need from there.

Im also not too sure where this myth has come from that cherry shrimp are super sensitive and can’t hack water changes. The line bred caridina I can believe but neocardina should be bullet proof. Up your water changes to 50percent as recommended as the 5 percent won’t be making a dent, especially if you’re over feeding.Plus the fish will love the larger water changes too!

cheers

Conor

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

I dropped the WC to 5% so i didn't shock anything in the tank with large swings in parameters.

i have mostly kept saltwater tanks and always had a good selection of inverts

I agree with the others, I'd definitely change a bit more water. Freshwater is much more variable than salt water, which is almost infinitely buffered and consistent in its physical characteristics. Organisms that have evolved in the sea (or Lake Tanganyika) don't have any ability to adapt to environmental change, they have experienced a steady state for millions of years, but freshwater isn't like that.

If it was me i would stop feeding completely. I have hundreds of the things and I don’t target feed them at all,

I would try just adding green vegetables for a while, things like <"nettle leaves etc">.

cheers Darrel

 

[LondonDragon]

I had similar issues with blues on my old OK soil, I then capped the soil with a thick layer of sand as I could not be bothered to redo the whole tank and the second batch I got are doing fine, have not seen any berried ones yet so time will tell if they do breed well.

 

[Nick potts]

@Nick potts, could you put up a photo of the complete aquarium?

that photo of the dead shrimp shows a pretty dirty substrate and the water looked pretty cloudy however it may have just been that picture.

If it was me i would stop feeding completely. I have hundreds of the things and I don’t target feed them at all, they get whatever they can steal from the fish, which isn’t much. Otherwise they are continually grazing at the biofilm and getting what they need from there.

Im also not too sure where this myth has come from that cherry shrimp are super sensitive and can’t hack water changes. The line bred caridina I can believe but neocardina should be bullet proof. Up your water changes to 50percent as recommended as the 5 percent won’t be making a dent, especially if you’re over feeding.Plus the fish will love the larger water changes too!

cheers

Conor

Thanks Conor. I will get a FTS up later.


Happy to up water change volume, I prefer larger changes personally and was doing larger changes on this tank originally, i dropped the amount in response incase it was shock or similar causing issues.

Hi all,I agree with the others, I'd definitely change a bit more water. Freshwater is much more variable than salt water, which is almost infinitely buffered and consistent in its physical characteristics. Organisms that have evolved in the sea (or Lake Tanganyika) don't have any ability to adapt to environmental change, they have experienced a steady state for millions of years, but freshwater isn't like that. I would try just adding green vegetables for a while, things like <"nettle leaves etc">.

cheers Darrel

Cheers Darrel, I will up the WC amount. My saltwater tanks get 50% changes 🙂

 

[Nick potts]

Apologies if the previous comments seem crass @Nick potts it is definitely not the intention. But this thread has struck a chord as your experience is not unique.

Pretty sure feeding has its place if you’re dealing with hundreds if not thousands of shrimp. However, the amount of cherries we’re considering caring for here is so small that if you provided a tank with nothing other than a sponge filter, substrate and some light they should be fine. From soft as it comes Lancashire water, to RO barely remineralised, to Cambridgeshire hard as it comes tap water - cherry shrimp have bred purely with the surface film available and no outside help. The colony size will be representative of the available food source.

Experience from speaking to others, as well as personal, has strongly led to the conclusion that most shrimp feeding products will only lead to problems or alternative forms of life we find undesirable in our tanks. They’re a con.

Being more practical... Do you have access to a water report for your local area? If calcium carbonate and magnesium are even marginally available in your tap, replenishing the water column regularly with large water changes will help moulting. If this process is hindered it will upset your cherries as they will not be able to grow which is why @Siege and @sciencefiction are offering good (relatively cheap) advice with water changes.

It’s an easier first port of call before investigating disease.

No need to apologise Geoffrey

I will cut out the bacter ae and just continue with the occasional nettle meal.

My water report can be seen here https://www.southwestwater.co.uk/siteassets/water-quality/2019-wq-reports/zp11-wq-report-2019.pdf

States 13 mg/l Ca on their main page for my postcode

 

[Geoffrey Rea]

States 13 mg/l Ca on their main page for my postcode

Yeah, that’s very low. You can use a product like JBL Aquadur or purchase salts to increase your waters calcium and magnesium content.

12.83 mg/l (ppm) is 0.721 °dH

 

[Nick potts]

Thank you again Geoffrey.

JBL Aquadur ordered.

If I aim to get my WC water to GH 6 and KH 5, would you advise raising the tank water slowly first over a week or so to match what i will be changing?

 

[sparkyweasel]

I gather it is a great food source, used by a lot of keepers/breeders for building up a biofilm

Sounds like another product that does something that would have happened anyway. 🙂

 

[jaypeecee]

Hi Folks,

I had similar issues with blues on my old OK soil, I then capped the soil with a thick layer of sand as I could not be bothered to redo the whole tank and the second batch I got are doing fine...

That sounds very relevant to @Nick potts' tank setup. @LondonDragon, what was your 'old OK soil'? Is there something in it that the blue shrimp may have been eating? Is @Nick potts using the same soil? Is it the Tropica stuff?

JPC

 

[Geoffrey Rea]

If I aim to get my WC water to GH 6 and KH 5, would you advise raising the tank water slowly first over a week or so to match what i will be changing?

You could measure out what you need for the tank volume and add it bit by bit to the tank over a couple of days if you’re being cautious. Can’t do any harm stretching the change in parameters out. Then just chuck it in at water change thereafter.

Your shrimp will welcome the additional calcium and magnesium. Hopefully you’ll see them moulting immediately after water changes.

 

[Nick potts]

Hi Folks,


That sounds very relevant to @Nick potts' tank setup. @LondonDragon, what was your 'old OK soil'? Is there something in it that the blue shrimp may have been eating? Is @Nick potts using the same soil? Is it the Tropica stuff?

JPC

The soil I am using is Fluval stratum, But I will be taking this out over the next few water changes. Something I read made some sense (though may not be anything to do with my issues) Fluval is an active substrate which reduces gh/kh/ph and is best used with RO water, otherwise you are adding tap water which the substrate is then going to buffer causing the params to be all over.

 

[Nick potts]

You could measure out what you need for the tank volume and add it bit by bit to the tank over a couple of days if you’re being cautious. Can’t do any harm stretching the change in parameters out. Then just chuck it in at water change thereafter.

Your shrimp will welcome the additional calcium and magnesium. Hopefully you’ll see them moulting immediately after water changes.

Thank you again.

My caution comes from my reef keeping where any changes are done over weeks rather than days. I think I will slowly raise it over the next few days, after which i should be able to make up my WC to exactly match the tank

 

[Siege]

i wouldn’t worry about all that stuff.

cherries are as hard as nails given a clean tank.

to give you an idea on a sub 100L tank I usually do one massive water change followed by another. Often a few on a nano tank.

ive rescaped 30L tanks with fresh tropica soil and bunged the shrimp straight back in.

They donot mind fluctuations.

The important thing is a clean tank. Remove all the Fluval stuff, it really is horrible stuff and I think there is a lot of waste there. That is where your issues lye.

Add some soil. replant and get the shrimp back in. Large water changes daily for a week. The only caveat is donot do this with ADA Amazonia!

Just get in and do it really, donot feed them and let them do their stuff, your only job is to remineralise the fresh water somewhat and keep the tank clean. They love freshwater! The more plants the better!

Don’t overthink it. 😃