Major shrimp deaths, feeling like giving them up :(

[jaypeecee]

Hi @Nick potts

That one is out of stock, but i have ordered a salifert kit, they always served me well before.

You should be OK with the Salifert test kit as it measures down to 0.05 ppm. It's worth measuring your (cold) tap water as it can be as high as 2 ppm but still comply with the regulations. FYI, my tap water maximum figure for 2019 was 0.21 ppm, according to the water company's annual report. If you want to delve further, the following is well worth reading:

https://aquariumbreeder.com/how-copper-affects-dwarf-shrimp/

JPC

 

[Nick potts]

Not sure about blue but red should be easier than that to keep.

I have at least 500 reds in my display tank but have tried multiple times with blue, yellow, CRS, snow white etc with all of them dying pretty quickly on me.

What you are describing sounds like a disease.

Also if you are starting with shrimp, best to keep them in a tank that's minimum 100L for stability.

Thanks Rebel.

Yes, I really thought I would have no trouble with theses shrimps from reading about care etc, I have kept much more sensitive inhabitants with no issues.

I also agree with you on tank size and stability and would never start out with a small tank but have been keeping nanos for a number of years now so thought i would be ok

As for disease, I will have to look up shrimp/invert diseases.

I cannot offer a solution just, perhaps, share that I have experienced the same issues. I have one tank with a thriving colony of yellow shrimp however failed miserably in my attempts to build a colony of blue shrimp in a separate tank ...despite buying from a great source. The only factor that I could isolate in terms if the difference between the two tanks is that the substrate used in the second tank has an ADA Africa cap which reduces the PH and doesn't buffer against spikes in acidity. My water is already is already soft and quite acidic.

Is it worth checking your PH before and after you turn the lights on? As CO2 increases in the water it may increase the acidity of the water creating a marginally more toxic environment for a shorter period? This may be a wild goose chase...just a thought.

Thanks Onoma1

The substrate in the tank is Fluval plant and shrimp stratum and sand, it is supposed to reduce PH but my PH in the tank is stable at around 7.5, GH 3 and KH 3

 

[Nick potts]

Hi @Nick potts


You should be OK with the Salifert test kit as it measures down to 0.05 ppm. It's worth measuring your (cold) tap water as it can be as high as 2 ppm but still comply with the regulations. FYI, my tap water maximum figure for 2019 was 0.21 ppm, according to the water company's annual report. If you want to delve further, the following is well worth reading:

https://aquariumbreeder.com/how-copper-affects-dwarf-shrimp/

JPC

I will also test my tap water.


If there are any shrimp experts on here, does the picture show anything that stands out?

 

[jaypeecee]

Hi @Nick potts

Images attached

What are the white particles on the substrate (shown in the images, post #18)? Is it shrimp food?

JPC

 

[Nick potts]

Hi @Nick potts


What are the white particles on the substrate (shown in the images, post #18)? Is it shrimp food?

JPC

It's just general detritus etc, there is a big tank of plants and roots etc just to the right and wood above

 

[Steve Buce]

Hi nick, sorry to hear youre having problems with your blue neos, having read the thread and looked at the pics, ill offer my opinion and try to help

on the pic, no sign of parasites, fungus or physical damage, but the brown patch on the shrimp could be a bacterial infection, though could be necrosis as the shrimp as it decays.
Lets go with bacterial infection
causes - poor water quality(high nitrates) incorrect parameters(low ph, low dkh, low tds) chemical imbalance(copper poisoning etc) and enviromental stress bought on by any of the previous

If it was my tank and Not having full test results, i would conclude with Low ph, low dkh, low tds, plant substrate which lowers ph, especially in the confines of a smaller tank, not many moults being seen, your shrimps have a bacterial infection bought on by incorrect parameters

HTH steve

 

[Nick potts]

Hi nick, sorry to hear youre having problems with your blue neos, having read the thread and looked at the pics, ill offer my opinion and try to help

on the pic, no sign of parasites, fungus or physical damage, but the brown patch on the shrimp could be a bacterial infection, though could be necrosis as the shrimp as it decays.
Lets go with bacterial infection
causes - poor water quality(high nitrates) incorrect parameters(low ph, low dkh, low tds) chemical imbalance(copper poisoning etc) and enviromental stress bought on by any of the previous

If it was my tank and Not having full test results, i would conclude with Low ph, low dkh, low tds, plant substrate which lowers ph, especially in the confines of a smaller tank, not many moults being seen, your shrimps have a bacterial infection bought on by incorrect parameters

HTH steve

Hi @Steve Buce , thanks for your input. ( i was going to PM you but didn't want to hassle you with tons of questions 🙂 )

Yes, I noticed the brown patch on that shrimp in the pic, it is the first to show any signs of anything, the rest looked normal.

Parameters (that I can test) are

PH 7.5
DKH 3
GH 3
Nitrate 0-1
TDS 179
Ammonia 0
Nitrite 0
Chlorine 0

The copper test is on the way so I will check that.

Are there any other tests you would recommend me doing?

The shrimp were all doing fine in a 5ltr pico tank with an inert substrate and fake decor, also straight on any food i put in the tank etc.

I am going to run another full set of tests today (not that I have any shrimp left to worry about 🙁 ) and see what the results are.

Really dishearting seeing you animals slowly dying, and as much as I would love to try again I just don't think I could.

 

[Dr Mike Oxgreen]

A GH of 3° strikes me as a bit on the low side. I keep mine at about 7°.

 

[Nick potts]

A GH of 3° strikes me as a bit on the low side. I keep mine at about 7°.

It is a bit low, my tap water is soft with a high PH but from what i have read should be fine?

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

A GH of 3° strikes me as a bit on the low side. I keep mine at about 7°.

I might try adding a bit more carbonate buffering as well. They didn't <"enjoy life with me"> when the tank got below about 100 microS and ~3dKH.

It is a bit low, my tap water is soft with a high PH but from what i have read should be fine?

No, I think that is wrong. I'd just ignore the pH, it is raised by <"sodium hydroxide (NaOH) addition">. Because NaOH is a strong base it all disassociates straight into Na+ and OH- ions, it doesn't have any buffering a <"reserve of alkalinity">. You still have soft water, it just temporarily has a high pH.

I think <"pH is quite a problematic measurement">, particularly where you have "unusual" water. In the UK in 99.9% of natural situations high pH is going to go hand in hand with high dGH/dKH, but all soft tap water in the UK is <"now treated to raise the pH above pH 7">, which means that a lot of people now have soft tap water with high pH.

cheers Darrel

 

[Nick potts]

Thanks all for the help.

Just done another batch of tests.

GH 4
DKH 3
PH 7.5
Nitrite 0
Ammonia 0

I have attached the ammonia and nitrite test, i know a pic is not all that help as camera render colours differently and so do monitors, but it is the kit i find hardest to read (my colour vision is not all that great)

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

I will also test my tap water.

What does the report from your water supplier look like? They have an analytical lab. so their report will be accurate.

I have attached the ammonia and nitrite test, i know a pic is not all that help as camera render colours differently and so do monitors, but it is the kit i find hardest to read (my colour vision is not all that great)

The test results look fine.

I know that this won't find much favour among some traditional fish-keepers, but if you have reasonably heavy planting my opinion is that you are very unlikely to have issues with ammonia or nitrite, plants are massively net oxygen producers and <"plant/microbe" biofiltration"> is a lot more efficient than <"microbe only">.

The higher levels of oxygen mean that nitrification is <"unlikely to be limited by oxygen availability"> and any NH3/NH4+ or NO2- (which hasn't been mopped up directly by the plants) will be rapidly converted to nitrate (NO3-) by microbial nitrifiers, and that NO3 will then be taken up by the plants.

cheers Darrel

 

[Nick potts]

Hi all, What does the report from your water supplier look like? They have an analytical lab. so their report will be accurate.The test results look fine.

I know that this won't find much favour among some traditional fish-keepers, but if you have reasonably heavy planting my opinion is that you are very unlikely to have issues with ammonia or nitrite, plants are massively net oxygen producers and <"plant/microbe" biofiltration"> is a lot more efficient than <"microbe only">.

The higher levels of oxygen mean that nitrification is <"unlikely to be limited by oxygen availability"> and any NH3/NH4+ or NO2- (which hasn't been mopped up directly by the plants) will be rapidly converted to nitrate (NO3-) by microbial nitrifiers, and that NO3 will then be taken up by the plants.

cheers Darrel

Cheers Darrel

report can be seen here https://www.southwestwater.co.uk/siteassets/water-quality/2019-wq-reports/zp11-wq-report-2019.pdf

Nothing stands out to me, but they don't test for copper.

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

Nothing stands out to me, but they don't test for copper.

That is pretty much RO water out of the tap, less than 1dGH/dKH, but a pH over pH8 because of the NaOH addition.

It isn't likely to have much copper (Cu) in it, mainly because it doesn't have much iron (Fe), lead (Pb) or manganese (Mn).

cheers Darrel

 

[jaypeecee]

Hi @dw1305

They didn't <"enjoy life with me"> when the tank got below about 100 microS and ~3dKH.

A conductivity of 100 microS/cm equates to a TDS of just 64 ppm. This is a lot less than @Nick potts' figure of TDS = 179 ppm.

JPC

 

[jaypeecee]

Hi @Nick potts

Nothing stands out to me, but they don't test for copper.

They will test for copper as they are required to do so. It is a national requirement, the upper limit being 2 mg/litre (ppm). As I may have mentioned earlier, the maximum figure from my water company (South East Water) in 2019 was 0.21 mg/l.

JPC

 

[Nick potts]

Hi @dw1305

A conductivity of 100 microS/cm equates to a TDS of just 64 ppm. This is a lot less than @Nick potts' figure of TDS = 179 ppm.

JPC

Hi @Nick potts

They will test for copper as they are required to do so. It is a national requirement, the upper limit being 2 mg/litre (ppm). As I may have mentioned earlier, the maximum figure from my water company (South East Water) in 2019 was 0.21 mg/l.

JPC

Thanks JPC

If they test for copper it is not included on the report from there website. My kit should be here soon.

On a better note, during my water change today I did find 1 shrimp, a large red female, seems fine but time will tell.

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

A conductivity of 100 microS/cm equates to a TDS of just 64 ppm. This is a lot less than @Nick potts' figure of TDS = 179 ppm

True, conductivity is a pretty blunt instrument as a measurement. I don't add many nutrients so nearly <"all of my TDS"> will be from Ca++ and HCO3- ions.

Unless @Nick potts has been adding <"calcium and carbonate">. Then his tank won't have much of either dKH or dGH.

cheers Darrel

 

[Nick potts]

Hi all, True, conductivity is a pretty blunt instrument as a measurement. I don't add many nutrients so nearly <"all of my TDS"> will be from Ca++ and HCO3- ions.

Unless @Nick potts has been adding <"calcium and carbonate">. Then his tank won't have much of either.

cheers Darrel

Thanks Darrel.

I add JBL minerals to the tank that contains calcium, magnesium etc, but nothing else.

 

[Siege]

My best guess - low gh but more likely Ammonia caused by waste at substrate level.

ps. you shouldn’t be able to see the soil. Should be covered with plants.