Karmicnull
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Family and doggo definitely the right priorities. Look after yourself.
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Consistency Deficiency
- Thread starter Hufsa
- Start date
Maybe a little sneaky update from me after all 
Ive had a really difficult time lately and your comments were all really lovely and made me feel not so alone, and not so bad about prioritizing my health 💗
I dont want to get too much into personal stuff because thats not really what this journal is about, just know that I really appreciate all of you and consider you all my UKAPS family.
I was feeling really overwhelmed at the prospect of taking care of the tank, but I think I have managed to turn it around a little bit, just by dealing with one small piece at a time.
My goal for this summer will be a controlled decrease in maintenance, without things going completely off the rails. Total lack of maintenance is one thing in low tech, but in high tech things can get really bad. One of the promises I made myself when I got the CO2 system was that I had to keep up with the increased demand on me, even when its difficult.
At this point I have fiddled around with a few slightly different trace ratios.
A representative image of how I feel looking at all of this trying to find out what to do next:
And before anyone pipes up with "But Hufsa, why dont you just add more!?", I would like to remind you that the plants were doing really bad with 0.5 Fe + traces.
Ive tried "just more" and it didnt work, annoyingly. It would have made my life a lot simpler if it did!
I hope eventually we will figure out why it doesnt work for me when it works for many others.
I never would have thought I'd have to get down to such small details.
If I do find some dosing that seems to fix it, I want to try to reproduce the issue and see if I can make it reappear and disappear on demand.
Hmm..
I tried again to look at what I used for iron and traces when I was doing low tech. Back then I used a premade trace blend and added Fe DTPA on top of that, using the K.I.S.S. principle.
This worked pretty well and I didnt have chlorosis as long as I dosed enough overall.
Then I started getting concerned that the ratios would be off from me adding iron on top of iron, and decreased a bit the additional Fe DTPA. I believe this is when the chlorosis problems started.
It looks like my tank MAY do better on a higher Fe to Mn ratio, maybe as much as 10 : 1 or more. Just adding more micros overall doesnt seem to produce the same effect.
So this is what im going to try next.
Ill keep the current numbers running, but have made a separate solution of just Fe DTPA that I can dose manually. Each dose gives 0.05 Fe.
Ill add this two times a week and let it run like that for a while, see what happens.
Unrelated note:
Scutariella has reappeared again AGAIN 😡 4 and a half weeks since last treatment. Last treatments were weekly ones, four of them from mid april to mid may.
Apparently not long enough 😣
To say I was annoyed to spot it again is an understatement, the follow up my tank will require over summer suddenly increased a lot.
I think I have read the life cycle of the parasite is 2 weeks, I will need to double check this. I was treating weekly because the earlier medications were ineffective, but the latest one seems better so biweekly might be ok.
It looks like I might have to change water every two weeks throughout summer instead of monthly 😒
All in all I am doing a bit better though.
Might not go completely MIA after all, we shall see 😊
Big hugs and a picture of Cuba that is doing a bit better
Ive had a really difficult time lately and your comments were all really lovely and made me feel not so alone, and not so bad about prioritizing my health 💗
I dont want to get too much into personal stuff because thats not really what this journal is about, just know that I really appreciate all of you and consider you all my UKAPS family.
I was feeling really overwhelmed at the prospect of taking care of the tank, but I think I have managed to turn it around a little bit, just by dealing with one small piece at a time.
My goal for this summer will be a controlled decrease in maintenance, without things going completely off the rails. Total lack of maintenance is one thing in low tech, but in high tech things can get really bad. One of the promises I made myself when I got the CO2 system was that I had to keep up with the increased demand on me, even when its difficult.
Definitely something I can do, I have a little bit of Tropica Powder Soil in a bag somewhere, so could plonk a Pantanal and Golden in there and see how they get on. Probably much better I would bet. It would be useful as another way to ensure the survival of those two species. Emersed Golden is going really strong in the windowsill, but the emersed Pantanal is still meh.
Always appreciate your input @KirstyF !🥰
At this point I have fiddled around with a few slightly different trace ratios.
The one that is running now has made Cuba happier, but Tonina is still pale;
0,1 Fe
0,02 Mn
0,013 Zn
0,013 B
0,006 Cu
0,003 Mo
0,0001 Ni
And I have in my notes the dose I used when Tonina was happy but not so much the other plants;
0,067 Fe
0,033 Mn
0,013 Zn
0,013 B
0,004 Cu
0,000067 Mo
0,000067 Ni
and
0,1 Fe
0,05 Mn
0,02 Zn
0,02 B
0,006 Cu
0,0001 Mo
0,0001 Ni
I also know what the plants didnt like, which was;
0,1 Fe
0,067 Mn
0,013 Zn
0,013 B
0,006 Cu
0,003 Mo
0,0001 Ni
and
0,2 Fe
0,134 Mn
0,026 Zn
0,026 B
0,012 Cu
0,006 Mo
0,0002 Ni
and
0,1 Fe
0,056 Mn
0,003 Zn
0,006 B
0,0087 Cu
0,0029 Mo
0,0002 Ni
and
0,5 Fe
0,28 Mn
0,014 Zn
0,029 B
0,043 Cu
0,014 Mo
0,1 Fe
0,02 Mn
0,013 Zn
0,013 B
0,006 Cu
0,003 Mo
0,0001 Ni
And I have in my notes the dose I used when Tonina was happy but not so much the other plants;
0,067 Fe
0,033 Mn
0,013 Zn
0,013 B
0,004 Cu
0,000067 Mo
0,000067 Ni
and
0,1 Fe
0,05 Mn
0,02 Zn
0,02 B
0,006 Cu
0,0001 Mo
0,0001 Ni
I also know what the plants didnt like, which was;
0,1 Fe
0,067 Mn
0,013 Zn
0,013 B
0,006 Cu
0,003 Mo
0,0001 Ni
and
0,2 Fe
0,134 Mn
0,026 Zn
0,026 B
0,012 Cu
0,006 Mo
0,0002 Ni
and
0,1 Fe
0,056 Mn
0,003 Zn
0,006 B
0,0087 Cu
0,0029 Mo
0,0002 Ni
and
0,5 Fe
0,28 Mn
0,014 Zn
0,029 B
0,043 Cu
0,014 Mo
A representative image of how I feel looking at all of this trying to find out what to do next:
And before anyone pipes up with "But Hufsa, why dont you just add more!?", I would like to remind you that the plants were doing really bad with 0.5 Fe + traces.
Ive tried "just more" and it didnt work, annoyingly. It would have made my life a lot simpler if it did!
I hope eventually we will figure out why it doesnt work for me when it works for many others.
I never would have thought I'd have to get down to such small details.
If I do find some dosing that seems to fix it, I want to try to reproduce the issue and see if I can make it reappear and disappear on demand.
Hmm..
I tried again to look at what I used for iron and traces when I was doing low tech. Back then I used a premade trace blend and added Fe DTPA on top of that, using the K.I.S.S. principle.
This worked pretty well and I didnt have chlorosis as long as I dosed enough overall.
Then I started getting concerned that the ratios would be off from me adding iron on top of iron, and decreased a bit the additional Fe DTPA. I believe this is when the chlorosis problems started.
It looks like my tank MAY do better on a higher Fe to Mn ratio, maybe as much as 10 : 1 or more. Just adding more micros overall doesnt seem to produce the same effect.
So this is what im going to try next.
Ill keep the current numbers running, but have made a separate solution of just Fe DTPA that I can dose manually. Each dose gives 0.05 Fe.
Ill add this two times a week and let it run like that for a while, see what happens.
Unrelated note:
Scutariella has reappeared again AGAIN 😡 4 and a half weeks since last treatment. Last treatments were weekly ones, four of them from mid april to mid may.
Apparently not long enough 😣
To say I was annoyed to spot it again is an understatement, the follow up my tank will require over summer suddenly increased a lot.
I think I have read the life cycle of the parasite is 2 weeks, I will need to double check this. I was treating weekly because the earlier medications were ineffective, but the latest one seems better so biweekly might be ok.
It looks like I might have to change water every two weeks throughout summer instead of monthly 😒
All in all I am doing a bit better though.
Might not go completely MIA after all, we shall see 😊
Big hugs and a picture of Cuba that is doing a bit better
Quick and dirty update for the journal 🌞
Pics taken after a massive trim, I think I threw out well over one solid liter of plant material.
My "more iron" plan didnt seem to do the trick. Dang, I had moderate confidence that might be it.
Some plants are slightly happier, some are super stunted, theres a ton of what I think is called Blanket weed a thick slimy stringy algae that looks like it should be in a pond, and BBA is back with a vengeance, just look at the spray bar.
I actually have thread algae growing from hardscape/equipment, which I think is rather impressive, even if its impressive for the wrong reasons 😎
I think its time to try plan B and see what results that gives. If it works better I can base new attempts on that and go from there.
Plan B is finding a premade fertilizer that is the least extortionately priced diluted water, dosing that and seeing what happens.
Its convenient to try this right now when I dont feel up for making ferts all the time.
The Troll moss seems to be really happy after I replanted it, and it has grown a lot. So far it doesnt seem deterred by summer temperatures.
Speaking of, I have adjusted the Inkbird temperature controller that controls the inline heater to account for summer conditions.
We dont have air conditioning so summer temperatures are always a challenge, although switching to LED has helped a lot.
The Inkbird is a really great bit of kit, the adjustable heating and cooling differential allows me to set up the tank in the following way;
Tank is allowed to drop as low as 21 degrees C before the heater will kick in.
I have set it like this to preserve some of the cool of the night and allow it to carry into daytime, leading to lower peak day temperatures.
If it does drop as low as 21, the heater kicks in and heats it up to 24. If the tank gets higher than 25 the homemade fan turns on to bring it back down to 24.
I have been running my tank at 23 throughout winter, I could ask the fan to aim for this but it would be a lot of work for the fan and thus cause more evaporation.
I could also let it get as hot as 26 before it starts cooling, but so far it hasnt struggled to keep it down and having a narrower temperature range is inherently better for CO2 stability.
The Inkbird also features adjustable alarms for high and low temperatures, I have it set to 28 and 18 respectively. Highly recommend the Inkbird if that wasnt apparent 😃
The homemade fan is an old computer fan with a 3D printed mount courtesy of my SO. It was made for my old tank/hood, so it doesnt really fit any more, but I have just rested it on top of the lights for now.
Before I leave for holidays we're gonna need to print a different mount for it as it is a fairly large risk of falling into the tank and electrocuting stuff at the moment.
Im planning to be gone for around two weeks in july, so I need the tank to be easy to look after for the pet sitter.
She is meticulous at following instructions so there is no risk of overfeeding, but she is also pretty nervous regarding the tank, so I want to keep her tasks as simple as possible
Having "Dont knock the precarilously placed fan into the tank and electrocute things" on the to-do list sounds like it might contribute to anxiousness so we cant have any of that
Both Super Red and Rotalas have stunted, this might be CO2 and not ferts, I have noticed the drop checker not turning quite green enough if the water level drops too low (because surface agitation increases). I try to keep up with the top-ups, but its not 100%. I really want an auto top off, just no budget for it at the moment. Evaporation didnt matter much when I was running low tech, but now with the lid off and the fan going the evaporation rate is much greater and actually important to keep up with.
Cuba is one of the plants that is doing better, these are freshly replanted so not the greatest shot.
Stargrass is still slightly chlorotic in the tops.
Ive got 95% of the Stargrass area converted over to polysperma now, the Stargrass just grows too dang fast and I realise why we dont see it much in high tech tanks.
Still, I keep a little bit as it shows the chlorosis thing better than polysperma, who just turns a rather unhelpful shade of brown.
Pics taken after a massive trim, I think I threw out well over one solid liter of plant material.
My "more iron" plan didnt seem to do the trick. Dang, I had moderate confidence that might be it.
Some plants are slightly happier, some are super stunted, theres a ton of what I think is called Blanket weed a thick slimy stringy algae that looks like it should be in a pond, and BBA is back with a vengeance, just look at the spray bar.
I actually have thread algae growing from hardscape/equipment, which I think is rather impressive, even if its impressive for the wrong reasons 😎
I think its time to try plan B and see what results that gives. If it works better I can base new attempts on that and go from there.
Plan B is finding a premade fertilizer that is the least extortionately priced diluted water, dosing that and seeing what happens.
Its convenient to try this right now when I dont feel up for making ferts all the time.
The Troll moss seems to be really happy after I replanted it, and it has grown a lot. So far it doesnt seem deterred by summer temperatures.
Speaking of, I have adjusted the Inkbird temperature controller that controls the inline heater to account for summer conditions.
We dont have air conditioning so summer temperatures are always a challenge, although switching to LED has helped a lot.
The Inkbird is a really great bit of kit, the adjustable heating and cooling differential allows me to set up the tank in the following way;
Tank is allowed to drop as low as 21 degrees C before the heater will kick in.
I have set it like this to preserve some of the cool of the night and allow it to carry into daytime, leading to lower peak day temperatures.
If it does drop as low as 21, the heater kicks in and heats it up to 24. If the tank gets higher than 25 the homemade fan turns on to bring it back down to 24.
I have been running my tank at 23 throughout winter, I could ask the fan to aim for this but it would be a lot of work for the fan and thus cause more evaporation.
I could also let it get as hot as 26 before it starts cooling, but so far it hasnt struggled to keep it down and having a narrower temperature range is inherently better for CO2 stability.
The Inkbird also features adjustable alarms for high and low temperatures, I have it set to 28 and 18 respectively. Highly recommend the Inkbird if that wasnt apparent 😃
The homemade fan is an old computer fan with a 3D printed mount courtesy of my SO. It was made for my old tank/hood, so it doesnt really fit any more, but I have just rested it on top of the lights for now.
Before I leave for holidays we're gonna need to print a different mount for it as it is a fairly large risk of falling into the tank and electrocuting stuff at the moment.
Im planning to be gone for around two weeks in july, so I need the tank to be easy to look after for the pet sitter.
She is meticulous at following instructions so there is no risk of overfeeding, but she is also pretty nervous regarding the tank, so I want to keep her tasks as simple as possible
Having "Dont knock the precarilously placed fan into the tank and electrocute things" on the to-do list sounds like it might contribute to anxiousness so we cant have any of that
Both Super Red and Rotalas have stunted, this might be CO2 and not ferts, I have noticed the drop checker not turning quite green enough if the water level drops too low (because surface agitation increases). I try to keep up with the top-ups, but its not 100%. I really want an auto top off, just no budget for it at the moment. Evaporation didnt matter much when I was running low tech, but now with the lid off and the fan going the evaporation rate is much greater and actually important to keep up with.
Cuba is one of the plants that is doing better, these are freshly replanted so not the greatest shot.
Stargrass is still slightly chlorotic in the tops.
Ive got 95% of the Stargrass area converted over to polysperma now, the Stargrass just grows too dang fast and I realise why we dont see it much in high tech tanks.
Still, I keep a little bit as it shows the chlorosis thing better than polysperma, who just turns a rather unhelpful shade of brown.
A budget option:
Amazon product ASIN B09DGFXKWW
They can also be DIY'd also - a rough and ready version from good old Joey:
Uppetty datety 🌞
Its super warm in Norway today 🥵 Im going to book a one way ticket to Siberia, my noodly limbs are adhering to the desk chair 😠
I think I was disappointed because I was hoping for much better results across the board, but it does seem like we are one step closer to figuring it out.
FTS. Camera decided to go extra hard on washing out any color on the plant tops. Thanks camera. The tops are not this white.
Drop checker is the wrong color here, it doesnt turn the final color until later in the day. Now that I think about it that is a little bit concerning.
But I think it has been like this all along, even back when I had an updated PH profile. I will check.
Tank got a few hydroponic plants placed in the back a few days ago. So far growth of green algae seems to have slowed a bit.
To prepare the tank for me going on holiday I have made changes to when my skimmer runs. It used to run only at night, but with the help of snails the floating bit kept getting stuck every night when it turned on, and it had to receive percussive maintenance every time. Since I am hypervigilant about factors that can contribute to higher than intended levels of CO2 in the tank and endanger my fishies, I need the skimmer to reliably remove surface film daily so that off-gassing is consistent. I didnt want our petsitter to have to deal with this.
We'll be gone for about two and a half weeks, so I changed out the fine floss for a coarse sponge that will not clog during my absence.
I also set it to run 24/7, and have spent a while adjusting the CO2 injection rate to account for this new increase in off-gassing.
I dont think I want to keep this change long term, I had to increase the injection rate quite a lot, and if the skimmer should fail entirely (just not work at all), I fear the CO2 levels could go quite high if a surface film develops since the injection rate is much higher.
Im trying to have my tank set up in a way where risks will be minimized, and skimmers seem to me to be one of the pieces of equipment that malfunctions the most, just based on what I have gathered on forums over the years. I have been Hufsa(TM) Overthinking how I could work around this issue, but no concrete solution yet. Stay tuned for updates on this 😜
Plant health pictures
Cryptocoryne spiralis Red is recovering from the uproot and trim it got and some of the leaves are dramatically increasing in size. Im scared
Polysperma looks better, still a little bit funky color but better (I think..)
Marilia is a better color of yellow, as is Cuba. Cuba is still sulking from a recent replant. Narrow leaf java fern still chlorotic.
Bolbitis type A has put out a fair amount of new lush leaves, very good size increase for relatively small rhizomes. I have thinned back its neighbors again to allow it good flow.
Type B is still recovering from the carbonated water treatment, I can see a tiny bit of new green activity but its slow.
I probably should have been a bit more careful with the carbonated water instead of going all "fizz fizz b**ches!"
Live and learn
Super Red is still trying to recover from whatever caused it to stunt so much.
Rotalas I would say are looking better, they have recovered from the trim and look less pale than they have looked for a while.
One of my few pieces of remaining stargrass. Chlorosis in this is better but not fixed. Dont mind the roots of the emersed plants.
The last actively growing Pantanal is doing pretty good relative to their usual happiness in my tank. It has a happiness range of 1-10 where 1 is "kinda angry" and 10 is "VERY ANGRY imma die now!".
As you can see its growing in a pot of sand capped aquasoil. So far its not growing that much better in the soil than it was in just sand, the only thing I know will 100% cause great amgery😡 is replanting or moving the stems. Its got downcurled leaves which is not good, but its not bright angry red in the top (which seems to be a sign its about to stunt), and the overall diameter is decent compared to the 15mm diameter growth I get sometimes when its a different kind of angry.
Sagittaria is throwing out chlorotic leaves, P. helferi might be recovering a bit, it didnt show up in this picture but it looked like the center might be greener in real life.
Hydrocotyle tripartita 'mini' is mildly chlorotic and so is M. Guyana, although its hard to see.
In the middle of the Buce clumps in this picture is Bucephalandra sp. "Dark Achilles", its a very slow growing Buce but so far seems to do ok under water, contrary to some reports. I wonder if there are different populations in the wild, where some populations of the Achilles / Kishii type do not do well under water, and some that do ok.
Which kind you end up getting when you buy one might then be entirely up to chance unless youre buying submersed grown and propagated plants.
If it keeps doing well I will split the rhizome and try to get it to my friends in the UK so you can also have it.
Some pale Microsorum pteropus "Petit". This plant is so far not particularly Petit, I have kept the standard Tropica Narrow variety in the tank too because I want to grow them out together and see if there is any meaningful difference. So far my theory is that many of the rare small varieties of java fern that exist among collectors and specialized retailers actually grow much larger than they say, its just that many collectors do not use injected CO2, and thus the plants will be significantly smaller in their care, even over long periods of time. I know my Tropica Narrow / Windelow / Trident java ferns were very small when they were growing under suboptimal conditions in low tech. In order to unlock their true size they need enough time to develop in addition to CO2 and decent ferts.
Maybe some of the "small" varieties of java fern will differ in how small they are under suboptimal conditions, with the special collector types becoming extra small, but is that really a good way to compare plants? Maybe for people running low tech. I dont know, and I dont know where im going with this either so ill leave it at this 😁
The random bits of healthy looking N. p Golden have just recently arrived, the emersed windowsill culture is doing so well I was able to harvest some stems and I just plonked them into various locations 🤷♀️ The emersed Tonina and Pantanal cultures is coming along, I will be able to harvest from them reasonably soon. I very optimistically hope to have some of the fertilizer issues sorted out first so they get a good start in the tank.
My poor pale Tonina 😢 It seems like this one is doing the worst out of all of the plants. I really want to at least get back to when this one recovered and became green and happy, even if the other plants suffer 😅 I just like this plant a lot.
You can see the Golden above it in the soil cup is not happy, from my experience so far, just like Pantanal, Golden does not like to be moved.
So its too early to tell if its angry just because it got moved into the cup, or what.
Second cryptocoryne corner. Silver Queen continues to put out these sunset colored leaves. They're kinda nice.
The SQ in the middle has Wooki's name on it, its just waiting and growing until it can make its way over to him 😊
Its super warm in Norway today 🥵 Im going to book a one way ticket to Siberia, my noodly limbs are adhering to the desk chair 😠
I was a little bit hasty when I wrote this, its not entirely the case.
I think I was disappointed because I was hoping for much better results across the board, but it does seem like we are one step closer to figuring it out.
Plan B was set in motion, I ordered a fertilizer that contained HEDTA thinking it was close to EDDHA in chelating power, but I had forgotten that its actually marginally better than EDTA and worse than DTPA until Happi pointed it out to me. I cancelled the order, and I couldnt find a fertilizer that had EDDHA so I got annoyed with the whole plan and decided to postpone it again.
FTS. Camera decided to go extra hard on washing out any color on the plant tops. Thanks camera. The tops are not this white.
Drop checker is the wrong color here, it doesnt turn the final color until later in the day. Now that I think about it that is a little bit concerning.
But I think it has been like this all along, even back when I had an updated PH profile. I will check.
Tank got a few hydroponic plants placed in the back a few days ago. So far growth of green algae seems to have slowed a bit.
To prepare the tank for me going on holiday I have made changes to when my skimmer runs. It used to run only at night, but with the help of snails the floating bit kept getting stuck every night when it turned on, and it had to receive percussive maintenance every time. Since I am hypervigilant about factors that can contribute to higher than intended levels of CO2 in the tank and endanger my fishies, I need the skimmer to reliably remove surface film daily so that off-gassing is consistent. I didnt want our petsitter to have to deal with this.
We'll be gone for about two and a half weeks, so I changed out the fine floss for a coarse sponge that will not clog during my absence.
I also set it to run 24/7, and have spent a while adjusting the CO2 injection rate to account for this new increase in off-gassing.
I dont think I want to keep this change long term, I had to increase the injection rate quite a lot, and if the skimmer should fail entirely (just not work at all), I fear the CO2 levels could go quite high if a surface film develops since the injection rate is much higher.
Im trying to have my tank set up in a way where risks will be minimized, and skimmers seem to me to be one of the pieces of equipment that malfunctions the most, just based on what I have gathered on forums over the years. I have been Hufsa(TM) Overthinking how I could work around this issue, but no concrete solution yet. Stay tuned for updates on this 😜
Plant health pictures
Cryptocoryne spiralis Red is recovering from the uproot and trim it got and some of the leaves are dramatically increasing in size. Im scared
Polysperma looks better, still a little bit funky color but better (I think..)
Marilia is a better color of yellow, as is Cuba. Cuba is still sulking from a recent replant. Narrow leaf java fern still chlorotic.
Bolbitis type A has put out a fair amount of new lush leaves, very good size increase for relatively small rhizomes. I have thinned back its neighbors again to allow it good flow.
Type B is still recovering from the carbonated water treatment, I can see a tiny bit of new green activity but its slow.
I probably should have been a bit more careful with the carbonated water instead of going all "fizz fizz b**ches!"
Live and learn
Super Red is still trying to recover from whatever caused it to stunt so much.
Rotalas I would say are looking better, they have recovered from the trim and look less pale than they have looked for a while.
One of my few pieces of remaining stargrass. Chlorosis in this is better but not fixed. Dont mind the roots of the emersed plants.
The last actively growing Pantanal is doing pretty good relative to their usual happiness in my tank. It has a happiness range of 1-10 where 1 is "kinda angry" and 10 is "VERY ANGRY imma die now!".
As you can see its growing in a pot of sand capped aquasoil. So far its not growing that much better in the soil than it was in just sand, the only thing I know will 100% cause great amgery😡 is replanting or moving the stems. Its got downcurled leaves which is not good, but its not bright angry red in the top (which seems to be a sign its about to stunt), and the overall diameter is decent compared to the 15mm diameter growth I get sometimes when its a different kind of angry.
Sagittaria is throwing out chlorotic leaves, P. helferi might be recovering a bit, it didnt show up in this picture but it looked like the center might be greener in real life.
Hydrocotyle tripartita 'mini' is mildly chlorotic and so is M. Guyana, although its hard to see.
In the middle of the Buce clumps in this picture is Bucephalandra sp. "Dark Achilles", its a very slow growing Buce but so far seems to do ok under water, contrary to some reports. I wonder if there are different populations in the wild, where some populations of the Achilles / Kishii type do not do well under water, and some that do ok.
Which kind you end up getting when you buy one might then be entirely up to chance unless youre buying submersed grown and propagated plants.
If it keeps doing well I will split the rhizome and try to get it to my friends in the UK so you can also have it.
Some pale Microsorum pteropus "Petit". This plant is so far not particularly Petit, I have kept the standard Tropica Narrow variety in the tank too because I want to grow them out together and see if there is any meaningful difference. So far my theory is that many of the rare small varieties of java fern that exist among collectors and specialized retailers actually grow much larger than they say, its just that many collectors do not use injected CO2, and thus the plants will be significantly smaller in their care, even over long periods of time. I know my Tropica Narrow / Windelow / Trident java ferns were very small when they were growing under suboptimal conditions in low tech. In order to unlock their true size they need enough time to develop in addition to CO2 and decent ferts.
Maybe some of the "small" varieties of java fern will differ in how small they are under suboptimal conditions, with the special collector types becoming extra small, but is that really a good way to compare plants? Maybe for people running low tech. I dont know, and I dont know where im going with this either so ill leave it at this 😁
The random bits of healthy looking N. p Golden have just recently arrived, the emersed windowsill culture is doing so well I was able to harvest some stems and I just plonked them into various locations 🤷♀️ The emersed Tonina and Pantanal cultures is coming along, I will be able to harvest from them reasonably soon. I very optimistically hope to have some of the fertilizer issues sorted out first so they get a good start in the tank.
My poor pale Tonina 😢 It seems like this one is doing the worst out of all of the plants. I really want to at least get back to when this one recovered and became green and happy, even if the other plants suffer 😅 I just like this plant a lot.
You can see the Golden above it in the soil cup is not happy, from my experience so far, just like Pantanal, Golden does not like to be moved.
So its too early to tell if its angry just because it got moved into the cup, or what.
Second cryptocoryne corner. Silver Queen continues to put out these sunset colored leaves. They're kinda nice.
The SQ in the middle has Wooki's name on it, its just waiting and growing until it can make its way over to him 😊
_Maq_
Member
Excuse me if I missed something mentioned earlier within this thread.
I'd like to know basic parameters of your tap water, supposing this is the one you're using, PLUS what is your macro dosing routine, PLUS pH of your aquarium water when dosing CO2.
I'd like to know basic parameters of your tap water, supposing this is the one you're using, PLUS what is your macro dosing routine, PLUS pH of your aquarium water when dosing CO2.
No problem at all, the journal is 36 pages long so I dont blame you for just asking instead of having to comb through a gazillion pages 😄
You are correct I am using tap water. The parameters I get from the water supply report are as follows;
NH4-N + NH3-N <0.040 mg/l
NO3-N 0.319 mg/l
NO2-N <0.010 mg/l
Cl- 12.5 mg/l
SO4 2- 14.7 mg/l
Na 5.33 mg/l
Fe 0.0123 mg/l
Cu <0.001 mg/l
Mn <0.001 mg/l
Ni 0.000794 mg/l
B <0.01 mg/l
No values reported for Mg, Zn and Mo
The water contains almost no Calcium when it arrives at the water works, but they filter it over marble to raise it to approximately 21g Ca/L. They also add NaOH to raise the PH.
Tap water at my house comes out with 3 KH, 3 GH (consisting solely of Calcium), a PH of 7.1 - 7.3, and a TDS usually between 55-67.
I raise the GH to around 6-7 for the shrimp before adding to tank.
As of lately the final Ca and Mg values of my tank water is Ca 30ppm, Mg 10ppm and 6.5 GH
Current weekly total macro levels (added daily by doser)
13,29 NO3 (3 N)
1,2 PO4 (0,39 P)
4,68 K
Current weekly micro levels (also dosed daily)
0,1 Fe DTPA
0,02 Mn EDTA
0,013 Zn EDTA
0,013 B (From Boric Acid)
0,006 Cu EDTA
0,003 Mo (From Ammonium molybdate)
0,0001 Ni (From Nickel Sulphate)
Plus an additional 0,05 ppm Fe DTPA dosed manually about two times a week, bringing the total weekly Fe up to 0,2
PH of my aquarium water usually sits around 7,2 ( fully degassed) and when I performed a PH profile in April I had a full one degree drop to 6,2.
I havent performed a PH profile lately but I expect it to be somewhere around this area
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_Maq_
Member
One more question: How exactly do you add calcium, magnesium, nitrates etc.? I mean, which compounds? Par example, if you add 13 mg of NO3 in KNO3, then you add 8 mg of potassium, as well. Which is more than you indicate, so you probably use some other compound.
Do I understand correctly that you add as much CO2 as to lower your pH from 7.2 to 6.2?
Do I understand correctly that you add as much CO2 as to lower your pH from 7.2 to 6.2?
Oh my mistake, I forgot to list that 😳
Youre very observant, my source of nitrogen is 50% from Urea and 50% from Potassium Nitrate / KNO3, hence the low K.
Monopotassium phosphate / KH2PO4 is the other part of the macro, not currently using potassium sulphate / K2SO4 at all.
I acidify the mixes with ascorbic acid and preservative potassium sorbate, although my next micro mix will be without ascorbic acid to try to rule out some possible micro interaction.
I remineralize with Calcium sulphate and Magnesium sulphate
Yes, that is correct, it may be slightly lower now (0,8~) as I have adjusted the injection after that PH profile.
_Maq_
Member
I can see several issues:
(1) A source of growth defect may come from incorrect balance between (Na), K, Mg & Ca. I prefer ratio K : Mg : Ca = 1 : 5 : 10 molar, which is approx. 1 : 3 : 10 by weight. However, sodium enters this ratio together with potassium. If I'm correct, then your ratio is (Na+K) : Mg : Ca = 1 : 1 : 3 by weight. Can you see any signs of Ca, and particularly Mg deficiency?
(2) This issue may be exacerbated by using urea, which works basically as ammonia. Ammonia is another cation which is used preferentially to Mg & Ca. (Even before potassium.)
(3) If I assume that you dose weekly 1.7 mg/l KH2PO4, 3.2 mg/l urea, and 10.8 mg/l KNO3, then your P : N ratio is correct, but you're overdosing K. Which is not harmful in itself, but it suggests that you could lower dosing of K and improve your K : Mg : Ca ratio. It's an eternal pity that your water-processing plant adds sodium. I wouldn't expect such an obsolete practice in Norway.
You can use NH4NO3 to lower K easily.
(4) CO2 dosing helps to lower pH, yet it does NOT lower alkalinity. There's one thing people often overlook. Some plants hate high pH because they cannot acquire transition metals (micronutrients). So, you dose CO2, force your pH to 6.2, and believe things are fixed. Not so. Alkalinity is another problem, disabling some physiological processes within the plant itself. So the plant is able to acquire the nutrient, yet unable to USE it.
We lack detailed analysis for which aquarium plants this is valid, unfortunately. My guess is that Tonina fluviatilis and Ludwigia Pantanal belong among them. (Ludwigia glandulosa definitely does.) You can add tons of micronutrients, yet some specie will not be able to live on.
(5) As you surely know, phosphorus and transition metals require reducing environment to be accessible to plants. That's why plants almost solely get these nutrients through roots deeper in the sediment, where conditions are reducing. However, iron will NOT get reduced as long as nitrate is abundant in the substrate. The reason is that nitrate is preferred electron acceptor over ferric iron. Bacteria respire oxygen first, when it's depleted, they respire nitrate, and only after nitrate is in shortage, they respire ferric iron, and the sulfate.
Unfortunately, people listen to Tom Barr and dose incredible (and harmful) amounts of chelated micronutrients. (I suspect most of them end up in filters, but that's another story.)
I never add CO2 to my tanks. I always mineralize from zero, i.e. from reverse osmosis + mixbed water. As such, I've got no experience with the conditions recommended by Barr and similar hi-tech gurus. If I make a tank with acid water, hardness and alkalinity are very low, too. I maintain from 1 to 3 mg/l NO3 equivalent (half NH4 half NO3) in my tanks. I seldom dose any micronutrients, and in tiny amounts at that, and there's no artificial chelator in my house present. (Yes, I follow Marschner.)
In my opinion, micronutrients are an issue only if you make them so when trying to outsmart the nature.
(1) A source of growth defect may come from incorrect balance between (Na), K, Mg & Ca. I prefer ratio K : Mg : Ca = 1 : 5 : 10 molar, which is approx. 1 : 3 : 10 by weight. However, sodium enters this ratio together with potassium. If I'm correct, then your ratio is (Na+K) : Mg : Ca = 1 : 1 : 3 by weight. Can you see any signs of Ca, and particularly Mg deficiency?
(2) This issue may be exacerbated by using urea, which works basically as ammonia. Ammonia is another cation which is used preferentially to Mg & Ca. (Even before potassium.)
(3) If I assume that you dose weekly 1.7 mg/l KH2PO4, 3.2 mg/l urea, and 10.8 mg/l KNO3, then your P : N ratio is correct, but you're overdosing K. Which is not harmful in itself, but it suggests that you could lower dosing of K and improve your K : Mg : Ca ratio. It's an eternal pity that your water-processing plant adds sodium. I wouldn't expect such an obsolete practice in Norway.
You can use NH4NO3 to lower K easily.
(4) CO2 dosing helps to lower pH, yet it does NOT lower alkalinity. There's one thing people often overlook. Some plants hate high pH because they cannot acquire transition metals (micronutrients). So, you dose CO2, force your pH to 6.2, and believe things are fixed. Not so. Alkalinity is another problem, disabling some physiological processes within the plant itself. So the plant is able to acquire the nutrient, yet unable to USE it.
We lack detailed analysis for which aquarium plants this is valid, unfortunately. My guess is that Tonina fluviatilis and Ludwigia Pantanal belong among them. (Ludwigia glandulosa definitely does.) You can add tons of micronutrients, yet some specie will not be able to live on.
(5) As you surely know, phosphorus and transition metals require reducing environment to be accessible to plants. That's why plants almost solely get these nutrients through roots deeper in the sediment, where conditions are reducing. However, iron will NOT get reduced as long as nitrate is abundant in the substrate. The reason is that nitrate is preferred electron acceptor over ferric iron. Bacteria respire oxygen first, when it's depleted, they respire nitrate, and only after nitrate is in shortage, they respire ferric iron, and the sulfate.
Unfortunately, people listen to Tom Barr and dose incredible (and harmful) amounts of chelated micronutrients. (I suspect most of them end up in filters, but that's another story.)
I never add CO2 to my tanks. I always mineralize from zero, i.e. from reverse osmosis + mixbed water. As such, I've got no experience with the conditions recommended by Barr and similar hi-tech gurus. If I make a tank with acid water, hardness and alkalinity are very low, too. I maintain from 1 to 3 mg/l NO3 equivalent (half NH4 half NO3) in my tanks. I seldom dose any micronutrients, and in tiny amounts at that, and there's no artificial chelator in my house present. (Yes, I follow Marschner.)
In my opinion, micronutrients are an issue only if you make them so when trying to outsmart the nature.
I thought something in depth might be coming when you asked all those questions 😄
Thank you for sharing your time and experience with me
Im probably gonna have to take a few days to process all of this completely 😊
Im not entirely sure how Ca deficiency is supposed to look like, I think some people argue its "not a real thing" or at least exceedingly rare. Therefore I have never paid much attention to it.
Is it small curly new leaves predominantly?
Im a bit cautious to try to diagnose individual deficiencies as so many of them seem to have similar looking symptoms 🤔
I cant see any signs of Magnesium deficiency, and I have dosed more Magnesium occasionally with no difference in the plants, so Magnesium seems unlikely to me
Happi advised me to change to my current 50/50 ratio, I believe to slow down the plants a bit. The amount of potassium was naturally increased when I did this.
What about ammonium sulphate, can it be substituted for ammonium nitrate somehow? We would get all that extra sulphate and then the potassium from the KNO3 I suppose?
0,067 Fe
0,033 Mn
0,013 Zn
0,013 B
0,004 Cu
0,000067 Mo
0,000067 Ni
and
0.1 Fe
0.05 Mn
0.02 Zn
0.02 B
0.006 Cu
0.0001 Mo
0.0001 Ni
Details and pictures can be found here, here and a few here
Ive been scratching my head for ages trying to figure out why it liked this but not what im currently dosing
But there is a window of availability (dependent on tank conditions) where they are available in the water column, before they precipitate, or?
I actually have an order of chemicals on the way that includes that, so they will arrive within a few weeks probably
Thank you for sharing your time and experience with me
Im probably gonna have to take a few days to process all of this completely 😊
When you say growth defect, could you describe or link to what you mean by that? Right now I have an issue with persistent paleness of plants, but recently the Ludwigia palustris 'Super Red' got very stunted and curly new leaves, do you mean either of those problems or something else?
Im not entirely sure how Ca deficiency is supposed to look like, I think some people argue its "not a real thing" or at least exceedingly rare. Therefore I have never paid much attention to it.
Is it small curly new leaves predominantly?
Im a bit cautious to try to diagnose individual deficiencies as so many of them seem to have similar looking symptoms 🤔
I cant see any signs of Magnesium deficiency, and I have dosed more Magnesium occasionally with no difference in the plants, so Magnesium seems unlikely to me
Interesting. A little while ago when I got started with lean dosing I was using Nitrogen from 82% Urea and 18% Nitrate.
Happi advised me to change to my current 50/50 ratio, I believe to slow down the plants a bit. The amount of potassium was naturally increased when I did this.
I could increase the amount of Urea in order to lower the potassium, but then we might run into your point number 2, hmm
Yeah its annoying for sure, I believe they add it to preserve the water pipes, the maintenance on the water lines is horrible so they would much rather add this than spend money actually maintaining anything.
Unfortunately this is an illegal substance for laypersons to have now in Norway 😢 Only for registered farmers and businesses with documented need for it.
What about ammonium sulphate, can it be substituted for ammonium nitrate somehow? We would get all that extra sulphate and then the potassium from the KNO3 I suppose?
Very true
I would really love your input on why my Tonina greened up quite rapidly a while back, when I used two following micro mixes;
0,067 Fe
0,033 Mn
0,013 Zn
0,013 B
0,004 Cu
0,000067 Mo
0,000067 Ni
and
0.1 Fe
0.05 Mn
0.02 Zn
0.02 B
0.006 Cu
0.0001 Mo
0.0001 Ni
Details and pictures can be found here, here and a few here
Ive been scratching my head for ages trying to figure out why it liked this but not what im currently dosing
That would be after they have precipitated, they are only available this way, am I understanding that right?
But there is a window of availability (dependent on tank conditions) where they are available in the water column, before they precipitate, or?
Hmm this bit is going to take a while to process. RO is for sure a very clean slate to start with, but there are some that make their tap water work though?
Outsmarting, are you referring to chelates? Do you think I might have better success with non chelated traces then? Or am I misunderstanding it?
I actually have an order of chemicals on the way that includes that, so they will arrive within a few weeks probably
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John q
Member
John q
Member
Hey I like this train of thought. You seem like an educated guy, please share some insights into these theory's. Tbh... Sounds to me like an overhang from the toxicity wars...
Joking apart explain to the opp where she's going wrong in layman's terms. Maybe start a journal, I think lots of folks would be interested in your set up.
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_Maq_
Member
Deficiency symptoms... huh... that's a broad topic. Well, when it comes to chlorosis, you must distinguish one thing: whether it's most pronounced on new leaves, or on the older ones. Magnesium is a mobile nutrient. When in short supply, the plant takes Mg from older leaves, and moves it to newly created ones. And since Mg is a key component of chlorophyll, older leaves get yellow (and are about to be dropped).
Lack of sulphur, iron, manganese, zinc leads to chlorosis on newly created leaves. Severe deficiency of these nutrients generally leads to rosetting and stunting.
Calcium in dicotyledons is essential for cell wall stability, and is not mobile nutrient. Youngest leaves get wrinkled, deformed. In case of mild deficiency one is likely not to notice unless there's another tank to compare the very same species. Only slightly "wavy" leaves may be due to mild Ca deficiency.
Nitrogen can be obtained as a cation (NH4), or an anion (NO3). And since nitrogen is a nutrient in highest demand by far, it influences acquisition of other nutrients. If you want to support acquisition of metal cations (K, Mg, Ca), you should prefer nitrate over ammonia. Ammonia competes with cations, nitrate competes with anions (Cl-, SO42-). Can you get Mg(NO3)2?
I do not comment dosing micronutrients. They should not be measurable in water column. And in the substrate, they are subject to cycling which depends on many variables. I never try to measure micros. I wait until I suspect deficit occured by deficiency symptoms on plants. Importantly, I never ever dose a mix of all micronutrients. Firstly, they are all toxic, secondly, they are in competitive relationship with each other (except B and Mo), thirdly, a deficit of iron happens most often by far, and iron is a very specific issue, not directly related to other nutrients.
Tonina is a tricky plant. I do not pretend to be consistently successful with it. I've experienced it stunted and failed to figure out why. Yet, most of the time I'm successful. Acidic (<6) and very soft water is the way. In such conditions, very modest amounts of micronutrients (even non-chelated) work without issues.
So, excuse me, I'm not about to comment your micro dosing. I can see that you follow Marschner, and agree with that. Marschner is THE correct source. (By the way, have you read it? I've learned a lot from it.) Yet, like I said, I always dose my micros separately. For iron, I've made myself a citrate chelate, all the others I dose as sulphates or chlorides.
Yes, that's basically the reason for chelating transition metals. I do not deny it may be useful, it's just that I can live without it. If micros precipitate (mostly with phosphates or carbonates) in the substrate (in contrast to the filters), it's not the end of story. Plants, and microbes in particular, can still get it. Microbes bring it everywhere inside their living cells, but they die within hours. They become part of particulate organic matter; lesser part in the water column, larger part in the substrate. Biotic and abiotic transformations follow, and plants' roots actively take part in it.
Generally, with higher pH and/or higher alkalinity matters get more difficult. Some plants (the "easy" ones) are adapted and can manage, others cannot. Instead of keeping one huge tank, I prefer keeping several mid-size tanks with adjusted conditions. (That's why I always mineralize RO water.) In this way, I'm gradually learning which conditions fit best for various species. It's a long run, but a great fun. The bottom line is that I do not force plants to live in conditions which a given species takes as unnatural. Not all plants can be pushed into a single tank, not even with the help of CO2.
In Europe, tap water is regularly alkaline and rich in carbonates. One way to handle it is CO2 injection. That's relatively simple, and the results are generally fine. But it can't work in any circumstances, and for any species.
Not in particular. I'm referring to CO2 injection, and high doses of fertilizers. Both creates unnatural conditions, and unnatural consequences must be expected and accepted. Like I said, it's not bad and it helps in many cases. Yet you must accept the fact that sometimes... it simply does not deliver.
Need to write down a couple of things from today so I have record of it, bear with me 🐻
I finally got my grubby paws on some Fe EDDHA (and Fe Gluconate), and armed with a new target conjured by the cult I set about with making a new batch of micros 😁
Weekly ppms:
0,05 Fe Gluconate
0,025 Fe EDDHA
0,025 Fe DTPA
0,05 Mn
0,02 Zn
0,02 B
0,006 Cu
0,0001 Mo
0,0001 Ni
Yes thats three different sources of iron for my unusually goldilocks-esque plants
The only source I could find for Fe Gluconate was Seachem's Flourish Iron, so after a bit of moaning and groaning about the price and the idea of buying premade stuff I bought a bottle.
I got a dose to work with from Rotalabutterfly for my weekly target;
To reach your target of 0.05ppm Fe you will need to add 1.3 milliliter Flourish Iron to your 250L aquarium
1.3 milliliter / 7 days = 0.18571428571 milliliter per day
2000 ml total volume in a batch of micros
Divided by 30 ml per dose
=66.6666666667 doses per batch
0.18571428571 milliliter per day x 66.6666666667 doses
= 12.38 ml of Seachem Iron into 2000ml of micro ferts with dose size of 30ml gives 0,05 ppm Fe per week in a 250 liter tank
Since I am turning over every possible stone trying to get to the bottom of the weird chlorosis thing, I have been considering the pH stability ranges of the chelated traces im using.
Strong chelates dont usually want too low a pH level and the more finicky salts usually want things quite acidic.
Especially if I want to keep the new Fe Gluconate in solution with the rest of the stronger chelates, keeping a watch over pH might be necessary to keep everything in solution and plant available.
A bit of searching turned up this as a rough outline;
Fe Gluc pH 3.5 - 4.5
Fe EDDHA pH 3 - 10
Fe DTPA pH 4.0 – 7.5
Mn EDTA ph 4 – 9
Zn EDTA ph 4 – 9
Cu EDTA ph 4 – 9
B pH ? - 7 (Is literally named Boric Acid so will probably be fine)
Ni pH ? (Is 4.5 itself)
Mo pH ? (Ammonium molybdate is 5-6, Molybdic acid is 2.4-3.4 ish)
One size fits all = pH 4.25 ???
EDDHA, DTPA and EDTA ranges are from the manufacturer of the chelates used, so those are guaranteed to be solid info.
Fe Gluconate is from googling and the B, Ni and Mo are a bit more uncertain, and based on me following links around Wikipedia for a while and squinting real hard.
Since Ascorbic Acid is out (see below), I got the green light to proceed with Citric Acid which is apparently less naughty.
Since I dont actually know much about chemistry and I wanted to know how much Citric Acid I would need to lower pH to 4.25, I looked around and found this guide that got me pretty close.
End result: "Use 0.7492g of citric in 2000ml of water to get a pH of 4.25" (Im not 100% sure this was done correctly in hindsight)
Planning done, it was time for potion making 🙂
First off I made new stock solutions for the minor traces.
We havent forgotten about the weird color my first Mo solution turned out, and we have been eyeing Ascorbic acid for a while as it can cause a bit of trouble sometimes, especially with Molybdenum.
This was how the old solutions looked today, they had gotten very yellow from oxidized(?) ascorbic and the Mo solution had turned a light shade suddenly. Not very trustworthy when youre trying to troubleshoot.
Out they went and new ones were made with no acid and no preservative, just clean bottles, distilled water and the salts.
I spent a while cleaning the bottles thoroughly with soap and then boiling water as I didnt want the solutions to be contaminated with bacteria now that they are without preservative.
I had decided to add the Citric Acid first, then Fe Gluconate and then the other traces, which I now would have done a little bit differently, but it worked out ok still.
I calibrated my trusty Hanna pH checker from @KirstyF and measured the pH after every addition.
Started with 1500ml water of the 2000ml total volume, because the stock solutions add a bit and I top off to the correct total at the end
0.5619g Citric pH 2.9 (I only added 3/4 of the Citric Acid calculated by the guide, but I was concerned to see it drop this low, afraid I had wildly overshot my target)
Fe Gluconate pH 3.2 (Flourish Iron is pH 3.5 according to my checker)
Zn EDTA pH 3.3
300ml more of plain RO
Still pH 3.3 (Mild panic)
Mo, Ni and B pH 3.3
Cu EDTA pH 3.3 (Oh dear am I going to have to start this process all over again?)
Mn EDTA pH 3.6
Potassium sorbate pH 4.3 (Woohoo! Not loving that it dipped below 4 at first but at least we are above now?)
FeDTPA pH 4.4
FeEDDHA pH 4.5 (Very strong color, would be very hard to see any precipitate with this in the mix)
Topped up last ml's of RO, pH 4.5 still. More concerned about staying in the right range for Fe Gluconate than x-EDTA when push comes to shove. Decided to carefully adjust down with more Citric.
0.1873 g Citric pH 4.4
0.1g more Citric pH 4.3
0.1g more Citric pH 4.2 (Half of this would have been ideal I think)
Now that I have done this process slightly wrong heres how I think it would be better to do it next time:
Start with water somewhat short of total (room for stock solutions and salts)
Add just a tiny bit of Citric Acid to make it very mildly acidic (wont take much).
Add everything except Citric, Fe Gluconate and Fe EDDHA.
Add the rest of the Citric Acid (0.8992g minus what was added at the start).
Add Fe Gluconate now that the pH is low.
Check for precipitating and other shenanigans. (Note, this procedure is only for this exact recipe, for example if you use Zinc Sulphate instead of Zinc EDTA you would need to modify)
Add Fe EDDHA and now you cant see anything but at least its done
Any way, new micro mix is set up and ready for tomorrow. No water change to accompany it, im trying to stick to the schedule I have set for the Scutariella treatments because I hate those things so much I want them to die die die permanently and never ever come back
FTS from earlier today to make up for the wordy post
I finally got my grubby paws on some Fe EDDHA (and Fe Gluconate), and armed with a new target conjured by the cult I set about with making a new batch of micros 😁
Weekly ppms:
0,05 Fe Gluconate
0,025 Fe EDDHA
0,025 Fe DTPA
0,05 Mn
0,02 Zn
0,02 B
0,006 Cu
0,0001 Mo
0,0001 Ni
Yes thats three different sources of iron for my unusually goldilocks-esque plants
The only source I could find for Fe Gluconate was Seachem's Flourish Iron, so after a bit of moaning and groaning about the price and the idea of buying premade stuff I bought a bottle.
I got a dose to work with from Rotalabutterfly for my weekly target;
To reach your target of 0.05ppm Fe you will need to add 1.3 milliliter Flourish Iron to your 250L aquarium
1.3 milliliter / 7 days = 0.18571428571 milliliter per day
2000 ml total volume in a batch of micros
Divided by 30 ml per dose
=66.6666666667 doses per batch
0.18571428571 milliliter per day x 66.6666666667 doses
= 12.38 ml of Seachem Iron into 2000ml of micro ferts with dose size of 30ml gives 0,05 ppm Fe per week in a 250 liter tank
Since I am turning over every possible stone trying to get to the bottom of the weird chlorosis thing, I have been considering the pH stability ranges of the chelated traces im using.
Strong chelates dont usually want too low a pH level and the more finicky salts usually want things quite acidic.
Especially if I want to keep the new Fe Gluconate in solution with the rest of the stronger chelates, keeping a watch over pH might be necessary to keep everything in solution and plant available.
A bit of searching turned up this as a rough outline;
Fe Gluc pH 3.5 - 4.5
Fe EDDHA pH 3 - 10
Fe DTPA pH 4.0 – 7.5
Mn EDTA ph 4 – 9
Zn EDTA ph 4 – 9
Cu EDTA ph 4 – 9
B pH ? - 7 (Is literally named Boric Acid so will probably be fine)
Ni pH ? (Is 4.5 itself)
Mo pH ? (Ammonium molybdate is 5-6, Molybdic acid is 2.4-3.4 ish)
One size fits all = pH 4.25 ???
EDDHA, DTPA and EDTA ranges are from the manufacturer of the chelates used, so those are guaranteed to be solid info.
Fe Gluconate is from googling and the B, Ni and Mo are a bit more uncertain, and based on me following links around Wikipedia for a while and squinting real hard.
Since Ascorbic Acid is out (see below), I got the green light to proceed with Citric Acid which is apparently less naughty.
Since I dont actually know much about chemistry and I wanted to know how much Citric Acid I would need to lower pH to 4.25, I looked around and found this guide that got me pretty close.
End result: "Use 0.7492g of citric in 2000ml of water to get a pH of 4.25" (Im not 100% sure this was done correctly in hindsight)
Planning done, it was time for potion making 🙂
First off I made new stock solutions for the minor traces.
We havent forgotten about the weird color my first Mo solution turned out, and we have been eyeing Ascorbic acid for a while as it can cause a bit of trouble sometimes, especially with Molybdenum.
This was how the old solutions looked today, they had gotten very yellow from oxidized(?) ascorbic and the Mo solution had turned a light shade suddenly. Not very trustworthy when youre trying to troubleshoot.
Out they went and new ones were made with no acid and no preservative, just clean bottles, distilled water and the salts.
I spent a while cleaning the bottles thoroughly with soap and then boiling water as I didnt want the solutions to be contaminated with bacteria now that they are without preservative.
I had decided to add the Citric Acid first, then Fe Gluconate and then the other traces, which I now would have done a little bit differently, but it worked out ok still.
I calibrated my trusty Hanna pH checker from @KirstyF and measured the pH after every addition.
Started with 1500ml water of the 2000ml total volume, because the stock solutions add a bit and I top off to the correct total at the end
0.5619g Citric pH 2.9 (I only added 3/4 of the Citric Acid calculated by the guide, but I was concerned to see it drop this low, afraid I had wildly overshot my target)
Fe Gluconate pH 3.2 (Flourish Iron is pH 3.5 according to my checker)
Zn EDTA pH 3.3
300ml more of plain RO
Still pH 3.3 (Mild panic)
Mo, Ni and B pH 3.3
Cu EDTA pH 3.3 (Oh dear am I going to have to start this process all over again?)
Mn EDTA pH 3.6
Potassium sorbate pH 4.3 (Woohoo! Not loving that it dipped below 4 at first but at least we are above now?)
FeDTPA pH 4.4
FeEDDHA pH 4.5 (Very strong color, would be very hard to see any precipitate with this in the mix)
Topped up last ml's of RO, pH 4.5 still. More concerned about staying in the right range for Fe Gluconate than x-EDTA when push comes to shove. Decided to carefully adjust down with more Citric.
0.1873 g Citric pH 4.4
0.1g more Citric pH 4.3
0.1g more Citric pH 4.2 (Half of this would have been ideal I think)
Now that I have done this process slightly wrong heres how I think it would be better to do it next time:
Start with water somewhat short of total (room for stock solutions and salts)
Add just a tiny bit of Citric Acid to make it very mildly acidic (wont take much).
Add everything except Citric, Fe Gluconate and Fe EDDHA.
Add the rest of the Citric Acid (0.8992g minus what was added at the start).
Add Fe Gluconate now that the pH is low.
Check for precipitating and other shenanigans. (Note, this procedure is only for this exact recipe, for example if you use Zinc Sulphate instead of Zinc EDTA you would need to modify)
Add Fe EDDHA and now you cant see anything but at least its done
Any way, new micro mix is set up and ready for tomorrow. No water change to accompany it, im trying to stick to the schedule I have set for the Scutariella treatments because I hate those things so much I want them to die die die permanently and never ever come back
FTS from earlier today to make up for the wordy post
