What exactly causes BBA?

[Andy Thurston]

Keyword.... May. Also it seems to suggest it's limited to certain species of plants. Assuming it's possible(I'm not say it isn't), I don't see why this would be a desirable condition to attempt to achieve in the aquarium as it would result in too little wiggle room.

isnt high light no co2 limited nutrients how darrel works

 

[sciencefiction]

Keyword.... May. Also it seems to suggest it's limited to certain species of plants. Assuming it's possible(I'm not say it isn't), I don't see why this would be a desirable condition to attempt to achieve in the aquarium as it would result in too little wiggle room.

A bit more to it from the same article on being limited to "riccia"

We believe that our findings for Riccia can be extrapolated to most aquatic plants. The last decade has brought more scientific evidence supporting this idea. There have been experiments with Elodea canadensis and Callitriche sp. showing the same tendency( Andersen, Madsen and Sand-Jenssen) suggesting that resource limitation is not as simple as Liebig suggested. Many resources are able to substitue for each other or at least reduce the symptoms of limitation.

 

[OllieNZ]

isnt high light no co2 limited nutrients how darrel works

I'll let him answer for himself but from what I've seen he uses alot of floating plants and very thick growth to keep the light levels low for his fish and is accepting of a certain amount of algae.

 

[OllieNZ]

A bit more to it from the same article on being limited to "riccia"

We believe that our findings for Riccia can be extrapolated to most aquatic plants. The last decade has brought more scientific evidence supporting this idea. There have been experiments with Elodea canadensis and Callitriche sp. showing the same tendency( Andersen, Madsen and Sand-Jenssen) suggesting that resource limitation is not as simple as Liebig suggested. Many resources are able to substitue for each other or at least reduce the symptoms of limitation.

They didn't attempt to lower the co2 compensation point, they found the minimum of both light and co2 and increased them from there. I'm not saying high co2 and low light will give you better growth than low co2 and higher light. Their experiment shows it doesn't. They don't state about any type of algal growth, their only interest is in the growth rates of their ricca.

 

[sciencefiction]

isnt high light no co2 limited nutrients how darrel works

Yes, my tank worked great on the same principle as Darrel's from what I understand from his posts.

They didn't attempt to lower the co2 compensation point

No, they didn't. The part about lowering the CO2 compensation point with extra light is from a different scientific paper which they have referenced as Maberly 1983; Maberly 1985

Their experiment shows it doesn't. They don't state about any type of algal growth, their only interest is in the growth rates of their ricca.

It is your belief that a low tech tank with high light will lead to an algae factory. It is my experience it doesn't if you have a high healthy plant mass, and that mass keeps needing more light.
I know you'll say co2 injected tanks are different. Well, of course they are. If you are driving the car faster, the crash will be detrimental to the passengers. But you can crash in a low tech too, and badly too, and without much light too. There are many variables that can lead to algae. But consistent condition that promote it's growt

 

[OllieNZ]

Yes, my tank worked great on the same principle as Darrel's from what I understand from his posts.



No, they didn't. The part about lowering the CO2 compensation point with extra light is from a different scientific paper which they have referenced as Maberly 1983; Maberly 1985



It is your belief that a low tech tank with high light will lead to an algae factory. It is my experience it doesn't if you have a high healthy plant mass.
I know you'll say co2 injected tanks are different. Well, of course they are. If you are driving the car faster, the crash will be detrimental to the passengers. But you can crash in a low tech too, and badly too.

First of all please define high light(our opinions may differ). If you can please post par values from your tank. Also I'd like to see some pictures of the tank. (I'm a low tech guy too and love to see others work)

 

[sciencefiction]

Do you know the difference I see from brief browsing between a Tom Barr fish tank and an Amano setup?

Tom Barr uses high plant mass with a mixture of not just slow growing but fast growing plants. He uses high CO2 and unlimited nutrients.

Amano's initial famous setups were just a bit of "grass" and rocks, which is low plant mass and not many fast growers. This is a lot more difficult to keep stable, hence he probably limits the water column from nutrients. And generally his tanks have a lot of slow growing plants.

First of all please define high light(our opinions may differ). If you can please post par values from your tank. Also I'd like to see some pictures of the tank. (I'm a low tech guy too and love to see others work)

Yes, I will pull out the par meter from my drawer, lol. Do you have a par meter? We mortals don't. I couldn't even afford fixing the lights when they failed. Well, at least not with the ones I want.

Tank 5f long, 50cm tall, light 50cm above the water surface which was LEDs 45x3W=135W.

Here before the lights failed

 

[sciencefiction]

I forgot, light was on 8 or 8.5 hrs a day. I can't quite remember which one.

 

[Andy Thurston]

Do you know the difference I see from brief browsing between a Tom Barr fish tank and an Amano setup?

Tom Barr uses high plant mass with a mixture of not just slow growing but fast growing plants. He uses high CO2 and unlimited nutrients.

Amano's initial famous setups were just a bit of "grass" and rocks, which is low plant mass and not many fast growers. This is a lot more difficult to keep stable, hence he probably limits the water column from nutrients. And generally his tanks have a lot of slow growing plants.



Yes, I will pull out the par meter from my drawer, lol. Do you have a par meter? We mortals don't. I couldn't even afford fixing the lights when they failed. Well, at least not with the ones I want.

Tank 5f long, 50cm tall, light 50cm above the water surface which was LEDs 45x3W=135W.

Here before the lights failed

if those LED's were at full power i would say that is pretty high light.
I believe Darrel uses 2 x t5 lights in some of his tanks, which i would also say is pretty high light.
I wouldn't say either were megawatt lighting though
my little tank had 24w t5 lighting 35cms from substrate, 30l with just liquid carbon and very little algae and that's fairly high but still not what I consider megawatt light either

 

[sciencefiction]

if those LED's were at full power i would say that is pretty high light.

Yes Big Clown, full power, no money for dimmers and the drivers were not dimmable.

However, I did play with the light up and down until I decided where to leave it.
The LEDs burnt any leaf of the emersed plants within 3-5cm distance so I couldn't go any lower and I wanted to.

 

[sciencefiction]

I wouldn't say either were megawatt lighting though

I suppose, it's a low tech in the end of the day. You can't go megawatt but pretty high is sometimes what's needed actually.

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

I'll let him answer for himself but from what I've seen he uses alot of floating plants and very thick growth to keep the light levels low for his fish and is accepting of a certain amount of algae.

Yes, on both counts, although I don't aim for any particular amount of plant growth, I just let the amount of light govern how much plant biomass I have.

It is my experience it doesn't if you have a high healthy plant mass, and that mass keeps needing more light.

I thin the plants out a bit in the autumn as light levels falls. In spring I just let them fill out a bit.

I believe Darrel uses 2 x t5 lights in some of his tanks, which i would also say is pretty high light.

The larger lab. tank in N. facing window and has 2 x 24W T5. The smaller one has an 11W PL2 lamp.



From above


cheers Darrel

 

[sciencefiction]

I thin the plants out a bit in the autumn as light levels falls. In spring I just let them fill out a bit.

liquid carbon is also known to use/remove o2 from the water. i was dosing 3.5x in my shrimp tank without problems and it did reduce the bba to almost non existent levels. I daren't add more lc so started with pressurised as well which finished the job nicely then I just used the normal dose to keep the hardscape bba free

The full story is, that I did a water change and when the plants were outside of the water, I spot dosed them as I thought I should do, reading posts online halfway through....... I had done a multi dose of liquid carbon in the morning as usual. After I spot dosed when the water level was low, I filled the tank with water, all my fish were at the surface gasping, meaning, all of them, it was a scary moment. I added an air pump, raised the outlet of a filter and they got fine in a couple of hours. So maybe liquid carbon does lower the O2, I didn't read on it anymore but a big dose would send those fish to heaven.
The plant I dosed was my large anubias barteri, grown to the surface of 60+cm, used to be beautiful and algae free early days. I had to cut it down to a few leaves...I so much regretted I "spot dosed" it the way I did.

Double/tripled dosed for ages in my BBA tank, nothing at all. I suppose if you have a smaller tank it may work better but not in a 90-100G tank where it may get lost in action.

There are many approaches to achieve a stable planted tank. So I don't doubt it adding injecting CO2 is one of them. To me this is not an option. Anything that can help me accidentally kill fish is not an option. I keep the tanks because of fish, not because of plants and I don't need help killing fish. I've killed my share over the years in the most ridiculous ways.

The fact still remains that I have just one algae prone/BBA tank out of 5 and none are CO2 enriched, so how is CO2 a solution to my algae problems.

 

[Andy Thurston]

There are many approaches to achieve a stable planted tank. So I don't doubt it adding injecting CO2 is one of them. To me this is not an option. Anything that can help me accidentally kill fish is not an option. I keep the tanks because of fish, not because of plants and I don't need help killing fish. I've killed my share over the years in the most ridiculous ways.

I think most of us have probably killed livestock through our own stupidity

The fact still remains that I have just one algae prone/BBA tank out of 5 and none are CO2 enriched, so how is CO2 a solution to my algae problems.

So what are you doing differently with that one?
and I never said co2 was the magical answer

Double/tripled dosed for ages in my BBA tank, nothing at all. I suppose if you have a smaller tank it may work better but not in a 90-100G tank where it may get lost in action.

I think the trickle filter in that tank helped a lot with the extra liquid carbon i was dosing. I gave up when i stopped dosing/ran out of liquid carbon because I couldn't keep enough co2 gas in the tank.
pressurised seems to work better in the cube. as long as i keep up with water changes and cleaning I dont get bba except on the hardscape and filter pipework

 

[sciencefiction]

So what are you doing differently with that one?
and I never said co2 was the magical answer

Honestly, I don't know right now. If one day I figure out a way for it to clear up, I'll be shouting loud. I always thought it's because of overstocking and possibly abundance of nitrogen in the form of ammonia, or other organic source.

I moved an anubias from this tank, infested with BBA to my other tank as in the videos above. The BBA didn't just stop growing, it disappeared from the leaves in not long time, a few weeks. Which tells me, the other tank is uninhabitable for BBA and one doesn't easily spread it from tank to tank like a disease...

I think the trickle filter in that tank helped a lot with the extra liquid carbon i was dosing.

I have a trickle filter in that same tank I was talking about. There are two large external filters as well.

 

[OllieNZ]

I do recall the tank and very nice it was, sorry to hear about the light unit failure🙁. How ever I would still suggest that both your tank and Darrel's are med-low light despite the actual intensity being provided due to the use of floating plants and in the case of your led unit the height above the substrate. I don't have a par meter either but I know some people do have access to them.
Would you mind posting some more details and a couple of pictures of the affected tank (apologies if you've already done this). I also agree shouting "CO2" at someone who does not have it or want to add it is maddeningly unhelpful.......

 

[sciencefiction]

I do recall the tank and very nice it was, sorry to hear about the light unit failure. How ever I would still suggest that both your tank and Darrel's are med-low light despite the actual intensity being provided due to the use of floating plants and in the case of your led unit the height above the substrate. I don't have a par meter either but I know some people do have access to them.
Would you mind posting some more details and a couple of pictures of the affected tank (apologies if you've already done this). I also agree shouting "CO2" at someone who does not have it or want to add it is maddeningly unhelpful.......

I can't argue about the light amount in that tank as I haven't tested it. I normally go by bright, not so bright 🙂 Mine was very bright. I took those floaters away afterwards. I didn't have them all the time.

Oddly, I haven't taken a proper picture when I had a proper BBA bloom. I suppose I didn't enjoy seeing it. It used to then cover everything. Right now, it's confined to anubias, older leaves. Before it grew on the new leaves of hydrophila, now it doesn't affect the hydrophila.

Here is the best I can find right now, see the anubias edges and tips... Sorry about the hose obstructing the nice view 🙄 It's the typical dirty looking tank one associates with algae ridden tanks. What details about the tank do you need?

 

[OllieNZ]

Just the basics: Size, lighting, filtration, wc schedule, stocking etc. If you're no longer getting new bba growth something you've done must be working. Also an FTS would be nice.

 

[sciencefiction]

Tank is about 90G
6 clown loaches, the biggest is the one on the pic. It was a rescue, the others are younger and smaller, a large common pleco, about 11 corys, 4 ottos, about 10 platies right now.

Filtration is 12x in two large externals and a trickle filter. The externals have spraybar outlets blowing from left to right along the length of the tank. There used to be a 4th filter but got moved to my other tank.

Water changes, 50%-60% weekly. I feed once a day.

Light for only the last 6 months is 3xT5 tubes. It used to be running on two tubes before while I had the big algae outbreaks so it makes no difference. Maybe I should've reduced to 1 tube. Tank is 65cm deep.

If you're no longer getting new bba growth something you've done must be working.

The initial huge outbreak, I can't tell you what stopped it. One day I gave up and stopped dosing excel and any nutrients whatsoever. I removed a large power head which was bumping the flow to 20x+. These changes resulted in most of my plants packing bags except for hydrophila and anubias.
The BBA reduced itself too along the disappearing plants proportionally.

I've been dosing iron regularly for not that long, sometime last year. This does help the plants and the hydrophila is no longer prone to BBA but at that time the BBA was minimal anyway to start with. I had it way worse. I also dose KNO3. If I skip dosing iron for a week or forget a dose or two, plant growth bleaches out straight away. Prior to any algae outbreak years ago, most plants were bleached out and weak from iron deficiency.
BBA stays on the equipment though but doesn't grow fast right now. It could be old as well as I don't bother cleaning it out anymore.

What I think I should do, is dump all old plants, clean the BBA from everywhere and start with healthy plants and increase the plant mass, also put dirt underneath the sand.
And reduce the stocking which will happen in due time but the plan is to remove two of my tanks and replace with an 8-10footer.
Right now, I am in college for the 2nd time, mature student full time for the last 3 years, money is tight as I am not working so I've got to bear with what I have.

What would you do if this was your tank?

 

[sciencefiction]

Also an FTS would be nice.

He, he, here is a glorious picture as requested 😛 It's a bit embarrassing...😱