Manuel Arias
Member
Yeast are one of the main sources of B12 available easily in the market. Not sure if this could help, but...the data is there. 😉
Cheers,
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What exactly causes BBA? Part 2 - Bacterial imbalance
- Thread starter AndyMcD
- Start date
Yeast are one of the main sources of B12 available easily in the market. Not sure if this could help, but...the data is there. 😉
Cheers,
AndyMcD
Member
In this thread, I've tried to argue that there is a link between what the heterotrophic bacteria produce and what the BBA consume.
Please see the following from Wikipedia:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon-to-nitrogen_ratio
"C/N ratios in the range 4-10:1 are usually from marine sources, whereas higher ratios are likely to come from a terrestrial source.[3][4] Vascular plants from terrestrial sources tend to have C/N ratios greater than 20. [5][6] The lack of cellulose, which has a chemical formula of (C6H10O5)n, and greater amount of proteins in algae versus vascular plants causes this significant difference in the C/N ratio. [7][8][9]"
Proteins have a higher proportion of nitrogen to carbon.
Heterotrophic bacteria consume proteins, breaking them down to release amino acids and ammonia.
Plants / algae predominantly consume nitrogen as ammonia (ammonium) and/or nitrates.
Algae needs to create a higher proportion of protein in comparison to plants. For example, as well as chlorophyll, BBA uses phycobiliproteins (emphasis on protein) to convert light to energy.
Heterotrophic bacteria also release phosphorus back into the environment (see phosphorous cycle).
My point is, heterotrophic bacteria release (ammonia and phosphorous) and produce (Vitamin B12) a number of products which algae needs to consume to thrive and reproduce.
The link between heterotrophic bacteria and BBA may not just be about vitamin B12.
However, there is scientific data to support the link between vitamin B12 produced by heterotrophic bacteria and BBA growth and reproduction.
It is much more difficult to find scientific data to support the argument that proteins broken down and released from plants form the building blocks used in the production of proteins in BBA.
Please see the following from Wikipedia:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon-to-nitrogen_ratio
"C/N ratios in the range 4-10:1 are usually from marine sources, whereas higher ratios are likely to come from a terrestrial source.[3][4] Vascular plants from terrestrial sources tend to have C/N ratios greater than 20. [5][6] The lack of cellulose, which has a chemical formula of (C6H10O5)n, and greater amount of proteins in algae versus vascular plants causes this significant difference in the C/N ratio. [7][8][9]"
Proteins have a higher proportion of nitrogen to carbon.
Heterotrophic bacteria consume proteins, breaking them down to release amino acids and ammonia.
Plants / algae predominantly consume nitrogen as ammonia (ammonium) and/or nitrates.
Algae needs to create a higher proportion of protein in comparison to plants. For example, as well as chlorophyll, BBA uses phycobiliproteins (emphasis on protein) to convert light to energy.
Heterotrophic bacteria also release phosphorus back into the environment (see phosphorous cycle).
My point is, heterotrophic bacteria release (ammonia and phosphorous) and produce (Vitamin B12) a number of products which algae needs to consume to thrive and reproduce.
The link between heterotrophic bacteria and BBA may not just be about vitamin B12.
However, there is scientific data to support the link between vitamin B12 produced by heterotrophic bacteria and BBA growth and reproduction.
It is much more difficult to find scientific data to support the argument that proteins broken down and released from plants form the building blocks used in the production of proteins in BBA.
Manuel Arias
Member
I think is worth to try. If your theory is correct, then BBA would be linked to lack of cleaning in the tank, i.e. the organic wastes being available for the heterotrophic bacteria for a start, which would mean, once again, that cleaning is a key element to have the plants just right.
Apart from that, a few comments:
1. The article mentions the ratio C/N 4-10:1 in marine environments being higher than in terrestrial environments (20:1) mainly due to the presence of algae with higher levels of proteins and less cellulose. Meanwhile this is correct, in freshwater environments the C/N ratio would be expected to be between both of them. Algae has much less weight in terms of biomass in freshwater environments, which also contain much more vascular plants (most aquatic plants are vascular plants). In fact, I did a small research which support this idea:
3. B12 vitamin is intaken by all living beings in the aquarium, favouring not only algae growth but also plant growth, so increasing B12 vitamin maybe is not linked at all with the appearing of BBA, which seems to me more related to the provision of the optimal C/N/P to these algae (i.e. CO2 injection, N production and ferts, P production and ferts) rathern than a specific cycle in the tank. This is supported by the idea that most algae have a symbiosis with some bacteria to intake B12 (http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v438/n7064/full/nature04056.html), which has been identified as an exchange of fixed carbon by B12 vitamin (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22463064), in a type of interespecific mutualism. This seems true also for the group of rhodophyta, to which BBA pertains (http://ec.asm.org/content/5/8/1175.full), so BBA will not require B12 in the water to grow (as its symbiotic bacteria will produce it). On the other hand, increasing the organic matter in suspension will favour it, as the symbiotic bacteria are heterotrophic.
In any case, as I said first, I think the experiment is worth to try. However, the reading of the results has to be properly done. Appearance of BBA when increasing B12 and reducing O2 levels could be more related to changes in the Redfield ratios rather than by covering a potential metabolic deficiency, which many algae can supply by symbiotic relationships.
Cheers,
Manuel
Apart from that, a few comments:
1. The article mentions the ratio C/N 4-10:1 in marine environments being higher than in terrestrial environments (20:1) mainly due to the presence of algae with higher levels of proteins and less cellulose. Meanwhile this is correct, in freshwater environments the C/N ratio would be expected to be between both of them. Algae has much less weight in terms of biomass in freshwater environments, which also contain much more vascular plants (most aquatic plants are vascular plants). In fact, I did a small research which support this idea:
a. A study over Superior Lake, which could be considered a freshwater sea (https://www.fba.org.uk/journals/index.php/IW/article/view/365/252), so it is not a standard freshwater environment. Still, the researchers report a C/N ratio of 13-14:1 which falls exactly between the two ones reported by the article you cited and matching my comment.
b. A general study of marine and freshwater environments (http://www.aslo.org/lo/toc/vol_38/issue_4/0709.pdf). The study shows that ratio it is not the same in the particles in suspension than in sediments. This is, of course, because the population of organisms is not the same, as well as sediments tend to accumulate particulate organic carbon. Apart from that, they analyze the ratios for rivers and lakes, with average result of 11.4-13.0:1, which again is in the mid-range between terrestrial environments and marine ones.
c. A specific study about marine algae CNP ratios (http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10.1017/S0967026201003456), which basically says marine algae has a C/N ratio between 6-8:1
2. B12 vitamin is mainly produced in anoxic conditions, i.e. in a tank will happen mainly in the biofilms associated to elements of the filter, and perhaps in some areas of the soil. However, water moves slowly within the soil (which allows this anoxia) so the rates of production, if any, at such a level, will be very low in comparison of those in the filter. Reducing oxygenation will incentivize anoxic conditions, but this is also something to consider in your reasoning: If no oxygen, heterotrophic bacteria will have also difficulties to break the organic matter into elemental pieces, and hence, the production of ammonium will be reduced, as well as the conversion into NO2- and NO3-. Reducing oxygen will then alter the proportions favoured by the algae. Note that there are specific conditions of optimal growth in each species. This study (http://goo.gl/R1i5pX) shows how an algae of the same group as BBA only achieves optimal growth to specific ratios, i.e. an excess of N/P ratio will produce deficient growth.b. A general study of marine and freshwater environments (http://www.aslo.org/lo/toc/vol_38/issue_4/0709.pdf). The study shows that ratio it is not the same in the particles in suspension than in sediments. This is, of course, because the population of organisms is not the same, as well as sediments tend to accumulate particulate organic carbon. Apart from that, they analyze the ratios for rivers and lakes, with average result of 11.4-13.0:1, which again is in the mid-range between terrestrial environments and marine ones.
c. A specific study about marine algae CNP ratios (http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10.1017/S0967026201003456), which basically says marine algae has a C/N ratio between 6-8:1
3. B12 vitamin is intaken by all living beings in the aquarium, favouring not only algae growth but also plant growth, so increasing B12 vitamin maybe is not linked at all with the appearing of BBA, which seems to me more related to the provision of the optimal C/N/P to these algae (i.e. CO2 injection, N production and ferts, P production and ferts) rathern than a specific cycle in the tank. This is supported by the idea that most algae have a symbiosis with some bacteria to intake B12 (http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v438/n7064/full/nature04056.html), which has been identified as an exchange of fixed carbon by B12 vitamin (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22463064), in a type of interespecific mutualism. This seems true also for the group of rhodophyta, to which BBA pertains (http://ec.asm.org/content/5/8/1175.full), so BBA will not require B12 in the water to grow (as its symbiotic bacteria will produce it). On the other hand, increasing the organic matter in suspension will favour it, as the symbiotic bacteria are heterotrophic.
In any case, as I said first, I think the experiment is worth to try. However, the reading of the results has to be properly done. Appearance of BBA when increasing B12 and reducing O2 levels could be more related to changes in the Redfield ratios rather than by covering a potential metabolic deficiency, which many algae can supply by symbiotic relationships.
Cheers,
Manuel
Last edited:
sciencefiction
Member
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- 3,406
Well guys....did you sort out the BBA issue? 🙂
I am currently the proud owner of another BBA tank. Some may remember that one of my tanks cracked last year and I had to move all inhabitants to another, overstocking it in the process. Two months down the line BBA started growing in the tank. The tank had never had any algae since I set it up a few years back so from my point of view, I have no doubts what the trigger is, excessive bioload. The BBA is most prominent under the spraybars. There's BBA growing out the spraybar holes and I have a crinum calamistratum planted right under the flow, with leaves as long as half the tank, and they are all bba covered. The opposite side of the tank is not as affected. So BBA needs "food" to trigger it and high flow to flourish. I've both in that tank, lots of fish and lots of filtration and flow.
I think we should start seeing a tank as a whole, not just as a bunch of plants that need co2 and nutrients. I presume you all keep fish in your tanks and you feed your fish so I'd look into the bioload as a whole and what could be triggering high bioload which the tank is unable to cope with.
I am pretty confident that when I reduce the bioload the BBA in that tank will die off.
I believe I sorted out the BBA issue in my previous tank by reducing the bioload. I had ran the tank overstocked for years and weeks after I removed a bunch of fish to another tank, the BBA stopped growing completely within weeks!....after having it for a long time...
And I also caused it in my small tank last year when overfeeding a bunch of fry and a baby clown loach. Once I removed the fry and started feeding a lot less, the diatoms, cyano, green algae on the glass and eventually BBA mass outbreak died off completely. The rampant algae outbreak was so bad that it destroyed the plants almost completely. I was admiring the crypt leaves, first covered in diatoms to the point of looking dark brown, with cyano overtaking on top of the diatoms, and BBA on all outer edges, as much as I could see through a brown/green coated glass....That's how they looked in the end. But the fact is, the appearance and disappearance of algae got nothing to do with co2, light or lack of nutrients or damaged plants in my case(s). Once I removed the fry and stocked with just a few fish to keep the filters going, all forms of algae stopped appearing. The plants took a good while to regrow but they did without any further input and without any algae. The BBA seems persistent only in overstocked tanks in which the root cause for high bioload isn't removed.
Out of curiosity, would those that battle BBA state the size of tanks, amount and types of fish they keep, the type and amount of food given to the fish? Perhaps we can establish a connection. Perhaps Andy is right about B12 and heterotrophic bacteria as a root cause following high organic load.
If you want an experiment that will yield results, setup a planted tank. Stock it with a good bunch of fry, e.g. guppy fry will do. Feed them as fry should be fed several times a day with high protein food. Do daily water changes if you want. Do this for at least 2 months. You'll get yourselves a lovely algae outbreak and BBA will follow eventually, perhaps after other hints like persistent diatoms.
Show me one overstocked tank that hasn't got BBA eventually providing the overstocking is maintained. I'd be very curious to know how the owner managed it because each overstocked tank I ran got BBA early or later.
I am currently the proud owner of another BBA tank. Some may remember that one of my tanks cracked last year and I had to move all inhabitants to another, overstocking it in the process. Two months down the line BBA started growing in the tank. The tank had never had any algae since I set it up a few years back so from my point of view, I have no doubts what the trigger is, excessive bioload. The BBA is most prominent under the spraybars. There's BBA growing out the spraybar holes and I have a crinum calamistratum planted right under the flow, with leaves as long as half the tank, and they are all bba covered. The opposite side of the tank is not as affected. So BBA needs "food" to trigger it and high flow to flourish. I've both in that tank, lots of fish and lots of filtration and flow.
I think we should start seeing a tank as a whole, not just as a bunch of plants that need co2 and nutrients. I presume you all keep fish in your tanks and you feed your fish so I'd look into the bioload as a whole and what could be triggering high bioload which the tank is unable to cope with.
I am pretty confident that when I reduce the bioload the BBA in that tank will die off.
I believe I sorted out the BBA issue in my previous tank by reducing the bioload. I had ran the tank overstocked for years and weeks after I removed a bunch of fish to another tank, the BBA stopped growing completely within weeks!....after having it for a long time...
And I also caused it in my small tank last year when overfeeding a bunch of fry and a baby clown loach. Once I removed the fry and started feeding a lot less, the diatoms, cyano, green algae on the glass and eventually BBA mass outbreak died off completely. The rampant algae outbreak was so bad that it destroyed the plants almost completely. I was admiring the crypt leaves, first covered in diatoms to the point of looking dark brown, with cyano overtaking on top of the diatoms, and BBA on all outer edges, as much as I could see through a brown/green coated glass....That's how they looked in the end. But the fact is, the appearance and disappearance of algae got nothing to do with co2, light or lack of nutrients or damaged plants in my case(s). Once I removed the fry and stocked with just a few fish to keep the filters going, all forms of algae stopped appearing. The plants took a good while to regrow but they did without any further input and without any algae. The BBA seems persistent only in overstocked tanks in which the root cause for high bioload isn't removed.
Out of curiosity, would those that battle BBA state the size of tanks, amount and types of fish they keep, the type and amount of food given to the fish? Perhaps we can establish a connection. Perhaps Andy is right about B12 and heterotrophic bacteria as a root cause following high organic load.
If you want an experiment that will yield results, setup a planted tank. Stock it with a good bunch of fry, e.g. guppy fry will do. Feed them as fry should be fed several times a day with high protein food. Do daily water changes if you want. Do this for at least 2 months. You'll get yourselves a lovely algae outbreak and BBA will follow eventually, perhaps after other hints like persistent diatoms.
Show me one overstocked tank that hasn't got BBA eventually providing the overstocking is maintained. I'd be very curious to know how the owner managed it because each overstocked tank I ran got BBA early or later.
fablau
Member
I will be happy to participate, I just need to gather all my tank data. Just a couple of points:
1. I'd suggest adding to the data fertilization regime, water change regime, light and Co2 level.
2. When do you consider a tank "oversized"?
Thanks.
aaron.c
Member
The overstocking argument is interesting. I have high amount of BBA and I would say my tank is quite overstocked which I thought I could get away with given oversized filter and plants eating up the ammonia.
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sciencefiction
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Yeah, you can get away with overstocking with very high filtration and decent water changes. But you won't get away with algae unless you keep the fish in a bare tank and wipe everything down daily.
Too many fish 🙂 I consider a 20G tank with 20 small fish overstocked.
My large tank with the BBA is way worse. I joined the bioload of two tanks into one because of my other tank leaking. It's a 5f tank, but roughly just 340 litres as it's not filled to the top( this tank leaked 2 years ago and I've been afraid to fill it up to the top since I fixed it)
The inhabitants are 7 clown loaches, a common pleco, an ancistrus pleco, 30-ish corydoras and 15-ish platies. Crazy, I know. There are also a bunch of cherry shrimp, lol but the clowns ate all the snails....
It's got 5 filters, 3 external and 2 internals, both internals have a flow of 1000l/h each and the externals of 5000l/h combined, so flow is 20x. With that amount of fish I've got to have high filtration. And it's quite the washing machine inside.....Perhaps the BBA thinks it's back in the river lol. The flow goes from left to right.
I do weekly 50%-ish water changes without a fail. I clean the pre-filter sponges twice a week. I keep the filters clean and I've been feeding relatively lightly considering I have a few quite large fish in there( the common pleco and two of the loaches). Thankfully all fish seem to be doing ok so far, hopefully until I can get them out of there.
Light is currently super low, just 15x3W=45W LEDs and the damn BBA still grows, not so much the plants.
Ferts, just occasional micros.
No injected CO2, it has always been a low tech.
Now guys, it's your turn to confess in crime 🙂
Too many fish 🙂 I consider a 20G tank with 20 small fish overstocked.
My large tank with the BBA is way worse. I joined the bioload of two tanks into one because of my other tank leaking. It's a 5f tank, but roughly just 340 litres as it's not filled to the top( this tank leaked 2 years ago and I've been afraid to fill it up to the top since I fixed it)
The inhabitants are 7 clown loaches, a common pleco, an ancistrus pleco, 30-ish corydoras and 15-ish platies. Crazy, I know. There are also a bunch of cherry shrimp, lol but the clowns ate all the snails....
It's got 5 filters, 3 external and 2 internals, both internals have a flow of 1000l/h each and the externals of 5000l/h combined, so flow is 20x. With that amount of fish I've got to have high filtration. And it's quite the washing machine inside.....Perhaps the BBA thinks it's back in the river lol. The flow goes from left to right.
I do weekly 50%-ish water changes without a fail. I clean the pre-filter sponges twice a week. I keep the filters clean and I've been feeding relatively lightly considering I have a few quite large fish in there( the common pleco and two of the loaches). Thankfully all fish seem to be doing ok so far, hopefully until I can get them out of there.
Light is currently super low, just 15x3W=45W LEDs and the damn BBA still grows, not so much the plants.
Ferts, just occasional micros.
No injected CO2, it has always been a low tech.
Now guys, it's your turn to confess in crime 🙂
Last edited:
fablau
Member
Wow, I feel guilty already! If that's what you consider "overstocking" and you perform daily water changes, I deserve to be put in jail right away!
Here is my setup:
75 gl tank
Wet/dry oversized filter (around 15 gl size)
Eheim compact 2000 (not too strong flow)
EI dosing with weekly water changes
8 years old setup, substrate is Eco complete mixed with gravel
Co2 injection with PH drop over 1.2
GH 13
KH 7
Light: combination of T8 and Led which gives me around 40-50 PAR at the substrate, 7 hours a day
Heavily planted.
Livestock (get ready....)
Over 40 tetra neons,
Over 30 rummy nose tetras
10 black mollies
5 red platies
2 bushy nose plecos
8 otocinculus
20 Amano shrimp
50-60 red cherry shrimp
Hundreds of trumpet snails
Did I forget anything? I don't think so.... Well, my BBA situation is not too bad, but bad enough to bother me, appearing on old leaves of almost all plants.
I agree with the theory of high organic load ---> BBA, but I have tried to increase WC, add carbon, resins, everything you can think of to reduce organics, but no avail.
Bottom line is: my plants are suffering and I can see that because they are not growing as they used to, hence BBA or any other algae I get. Some people get GDA, or GBA, or fuzzy algae. and never BBA. I get mostly BBA... Go figure! But I am sure that if my plants were growing at full throttle, BBA wouldn't be around.
Here is my setup:
75 gl tank
Wet/dry oversized filter (around 15 gl size)
Eheim compact 2000 (not too strong flow)
EI dosing with weekly water changes
8 years old setup, substrate is Eco complete mixed with gravel
Co2 injection with PH drop over 1.2
GH 13
KH 7
Light: combination of T8 and Led which gives me around 40-50 PAR at the substrate, 7 hours a day
Heavily planted.
Livestock (get ready....)
Over 40 tetra neons,
Over 30 rummy nose tetras
10 black mollies
5 red platies
2 bushy nose plecos
8 otocinculus
20 Amano shrimp
50-60 red cherry shrimp
Hundreds of trumpet snails
Did I forget anything? I don't think so.... Well, my BBA situation is not too bad, but bad enough to bother me, appearing on old leaves of almost all plants.
I agree with the theory of high organic load ---> BBA, but I have tried to increase WC, add carbon, resins, everything you can think of to reduce organics, but no avail.
Bottom line is: my plants are suffering and I can see that because they are not growing as they used to, hence BBA or any other algae I get. Some people get GDA, or GBA, or fuzzy algae. and never BBA. I get mostly BBA... Go figure! But I am sure that if my plants were growing at full throttle, BBA wouldn't be around.
I've had this, I reckon it grows in the filter pipes, detaches and then get's stuck in a spraybar hole. Despite this, it's never grown in the tank even when most of the spraybar holes were blocked up with it. I stopped using a spraybar a week ago and yesterday I saw a big clump of BBA just floating around in the tank! It must have come from the filter pipes.
aaron.c
Member
I am very overstocked but have not noticed problems with livestock - I guess because of the 60/70% water changes once a week and large filter capacity.
I have;
9 Dwarf Neon Rainbows
12 Harlequin Rasboras
10 Panda Coryodras
4 Ottocinclus
12-15 Amano Shrimps (hard to count)
This in a Rio 125 with JBL e1501 filter.
I might need to get rid of my harlequins. Sure I can rehome them.
I have;
9 Dwarf Neon Rainbows
12 Harlequin Rasboras
10 Panda Coryodras
4 Ottocinclus
12-15 Amano Shrimps (hard to count)
This in a Rio 125 with JBL e1501 filter.
I might need to get rid of my harlequins. Sure I can rehome them.
I'm stocked very low. 48 gallons with not even 20 small fish. I had a little BBA pop up on hardscape. This occurred because light and CO2 timer were off. Over time the digital timers lose the correct time. This is a very long thread so pardon me not reading it all. I've found the conditions that cause BBA to be quite predictable and the appropriate response remedies it. This to me signals there is no need for a radical rethinking and we too often overcomplicate the hobby.
sent from tapatalk on my phone so auto correct and other errors are bound to happen
sent from tapatalk on my phone so auto correct and other errors are bound to happen
sciencefiction
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Removing 20-ish platies from my now cracked tank made a difference to the BBA within weeks. I could notice it in a week actually because it stopped growing. Platies are very "poopy" fish. So it's worth trying if you are willing to part with some fish. Otherwise my fish were unaffected either. All original inhabitants bar some guppies from that tank(some lived to 4 years) are still alive and half are 6 years old now. I never missed a water change and overfiltered heavily. So it can be done but the damn BBA was always there.
Hey Shawn. Some of us have low tech tanks, CO2 was never a controlled variable. It's possible in yours a reduction of CO2 and light affected the plants, thus disturbing the "balance", e.g. organics from the plants if you are heavily planted, temporarily until you got back on track. As for my low tech, it had never had algae, even when my plants got out of whack due to failed lighting. Now, 2 months after overstocking, I got BBA.
There's another issue, not all of us have the same BBA species or at least visibly it's not the same. I've never ever had "tuffs" on any driftwood ever. My BBA is jet black looking, charcoal like, with extremely short hairs, and attaches only to plastic outlets, airstones and plants. Looking at pictures here, same as fablau's pictures a few pages back. But I've never ever seen it look like "fluffy" grey or greenish tuffs, which is the "good looking" type of BBA 🙂
Mine is ugly
Perhaps it needs injected CO2 to look good, lol..There's another issue, not all of us have the same BBA species or at least visibly it's not the same. I've never ever had "tuffs" on any driftwood ever. My BBA is jet black looking, charcoal like, with extremely short hairs, and attaches only to plastic outlets, airstones and plants. Looking at pictures here, same as fablau's pictures a few pages back. But I've never ever seen it look like "fluffy" grey or greenish tuffs, which is the "good looking" type of BBA 🙂
Mine is ugly
The black/brown stuff is probably Audouinella Heterospora because this guy seems to have induced it's gametophyte Thorea Hispida.
http://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/is-this-algae.37322/
The green stuff isn't Audouinella, I suspect it's Batrachosporum Macrosporum.
Distinguishing Audouinella from chantransia stages is almost impossible visually because there are many chantransia that look alike, the only way is by genetic analysis or by getting it to produce the corresponding gametophyte.
zozo
Member
Where i come from we do not have a house hold name for Staghorn nor BBA 🙂 All of them are simply clasified under Beard Algea..
sciencefiction
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Yes. We came to the same conclusion on the first BBA thread. Darrel investigated at the time with a colleague based on the microscopic pictures we took but you can't apparently tell by that as certain red algae in chantransia stage look like audouinella. So it's a mystery whether we're dealing with the same "black beard" algae in our tanks or not. As a result, it's possible that the conditions under which algae appears could differ too, hence all the different experience and opinions about it too.
fablau
Member
Hey guys, I wanted to give you an update about my BBA and traces toxicity experiments, after 3 months of experiments I have posted my results and conclusions on this thread below:
http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/1...csm-b-toxicity-experiment-42.html#post8967746
And I think I can confirm one more time that enzymes play a big role in BBA development and inhibition, as I discussed on this other thread:
http://www.barrreport.com/forum/bar...xicity-plant-enzyme-inhibition-persistent-bba
http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/1...csm-b-toxicity-experiment-42.html#post8967746
And I think I can confirm one more time that enzymes play a big role in BBA development and inhibition, as I discussed on this other thread:
http://www.barrreport.com/forum/bar...xicity-plant-enzyme-inhibition-persistent-bba
Unfortunately, your account hardly qualifies as an experiment. It is an anecdote at best. What also bothers me is the language commonly associated with other pseudoscience: "detox" and "believe" or "belief".
An experiment would contain tight control over other variables in order to prevent confounding explanation. It would also include a control tank and some degree of replication. In addition you entered the project with an assumption of your conclusion which has heavily biased your interpretation of observations.
We have no proof that these levels are toxic or create growth issues as you present nothing to support it other than your own heavily biased anecdote. There are many examples that would indicate otherwise.
I simply cannot see how the case example presented provides enough quality evidence to somehow change the discussion away from good management and horticultural practices to some ill defined trace nutrient dosing range as a catch all explanation for any type of algae or growth issues.
sent from tapatalk on my phone so auto correct and other errors are bound to happen
An experiment would contain tight control over other variables in order to prevent confounding explanation. It would also include a control tank and some degree of replication. In addition you entered the project with an assumption of your conclusion which has heavily biased your interpretation of observations.
We have no proof that these levels are toxic or create growth issues as you present nothing to support it other than your own heavily biased anecdote. There are many examples that would indicate otherwise.
I simply cannot see how the case example presented provides enough quality evidence to somehow change the discussion away from good management and horticultural practices to some ill defined trace nutrient dosing range as a catch all explanation for any type of algae or growth issues.
sent from tapatalk on my phone so auto correct and other errors are bound to happen
fablau
Member
Ok, whatever... I explained on my posting mentioned above that there is not any scientific data and my results are just from testing and observing. But of course what your are bringing out here is NOT the point of my intent nor the point of this thread. The point here is to find a way to combat BBA, and in my case, I have found it 🙂
If you think that what I wrote has no value, just ignore it, but please, don't lecture me on what's an experiment or not. Just ignore what I wrote, maybe someone else will find it useful.
If you think that what I wrote has no value, just ignore it, but please, don't lecture me on what's an experiment or not. Just ignore what I wrote, maybe someone else will find it useful.
AndyMcD
Member
Shawnmac, have you heard of the Higgs Boson particle? Theoretical physicists had hypothesised the existence of a particle that may help to explain mass in the 1960s. Only very recently, after huge amounts of money have been spent on a particle collider at CERN has this been proved by experimental physicists. Due to theoretical physicists, the experimental physicists knew where to look.
Having studied science, I appreciate exactly where you are coming from. However, realistically, it is highly unlikely that anyone will invest the resources to prove the cause of outbreaks of BBA through experiment alone.
I admire Fablau for hypothesising a potential cause of BBA outbreaks. I'm aware that Fablau has read published scientific literature to help support his hypothesis.
Realistically, to move forward in this hobby, we'll need to focus resource where it is most likely to lead to a definite result.
Personally, I admire Fablau for investing his time and having the courage to publish his hypothesis. Maybe his thinking will help us all to get closer to a cause.
Having said this, I agree with you that only through scientific experiment will we prove or disprove a hypothesis.
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Having studied science, I appreciate exactly where you are coming from. However, realistically, it is highly unlikely that anyone will invest the resources to prove the cause of outbreaks of BBA through experiment alone.
I admire Fablau for hypothesising a potential cause of BBA outbreaks. I'm aware that Fablau has read published scientific literature to help support his hypothesis.
Realistically, to move forward in this hobby, we'll need to focus resource where it is most likely to lead to a definite result.
Personally, I admire Fablau for investing his time and having the courage to publish his hypothesis. Maybe his thinking will help us all to get closer to a cause.
Having said this, I agree with you that only through scientific experiment will we prove or disprove a hypothesis.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
