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What exactly causes BBA? Part 2 - Bacterial imbalance

Soilwork said:
I believe that is why my jungle val outcompeted everything in the 46 before I switched to walstad, because it was thriving on the bicarbonates from the addition of the crushed coral. Walstad stats that half of the aquatic plant species studied can use bicarbonates. Evidently they must not have been the ones I had in my tank haha. Of course there would have been many reasons my other plants failed. The sheer size of the tank is also a challenge.
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Kh plays part in the nitrogen cycle. As a result, in a tank where it's not replaced via water changes or other means, it eventually drops to 0. In nature, fish that live in very acidic water are not affected by this because the conditions of the water still remain extremely stable. In fish tanks a Kh of 0 will affect not just micro-organisms but can cause a multitude of issues: fish gasping at the surface, bacterial infections, mass deaths, etc... Low tech tanks subjected to lack of water changes, loaded with extremely soft water is a bad idea for the sake of fish...This may not necessarily have any effect on plants. Even in a low tech tank plants should not be forced to use just bicarbonates. One should aim at arriving at the right conditions, so CO2 is produced in the soil. I honestly don't think your soft water was the culprit for the plants failure. Lack of calcium and magnesium ions on another hand is.
There's enough evidence to suggest that soft water on it's own can't be an issue with plants, even in a low tech tank.
 
Perhaps it is rather that the algae is the cure to the imbalance rather than the result. From the ecosystems point of view. If oxygen is low and there is a risk of life ceasing. The balance favours the heterotrophs who can survive in low oxygen levels to coexist and with aid the production of algae. If algae grows in enough quantities it is then able to produce enough oxygen to support autotrophic bacteria which in turn reduce the ammount of ammonia production thus slowing the accumulation of algae until the balance is achieved. Animals that would otherwise have died graze on the algae reducing its numbers but the organic waste released as a result equals more ammonia for bacteria and algae restoring balance. Just a thought.
 
sciencefiction said:
Kh plays part in the nitrogen cycle. As a result, in a tank where it's not replaced via water changes or other means, it eventually drops to 0. In nature, fish that live in very acidic water are not affected by this because the conditions of the water still remain extremely stable. In fish tanks a Kh of 0 will affect not just micro-organisms but can cause a multitude of issues: fish gasping at the surface, bacterial infections, mass deaths, etc... Low tech tanks subjected to lack of water changes, loaded with extremely soft water is a bad idea for the sake of fish...This may not necessarily have any effect on plants. Even in a low tech tank plants should not be forced to use just bicarbonates. One should aim at arriving at the right conditions, so CO2 is produced in the soil. I honestly don't think your soft water was the culprit for the plants failure. Lack of calcium and magnesium ions on another hand is.
There's enough evidence to suggest that soft water on it's own can't be an issue with plants, even in a low tech tank.
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I had crushed coral in the filter at this time which raised the kh from 3 to 8dkh. Calcium should not have been an issue nor should there have been an issue with bacteria or microorganism. I'm just putting my plant failures down to the fact there wash little gas exchange and no soil at this time so minimal co2 production. This is why I believe the jungle val was able to sustain itself better in this conditions. I'll upload some pictures of my tank thoughout these changes giving a brief description of each. Not wanting to tank away from the main discussion of this thread I could start another if you would prefer? Andy?
 
Soilwork said:
I understand where you are going with the black out but I am reluctant to do this. Like you said, this does not address the cause of the issue and a black out may lead to plant decay which could further increase the problem?
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I was very concerned about this too, until someone pointed out that plants posted to you can be in the dark for 3 days and arrive OK.

In my experience, the plants grew in the three days, but a bit more leggy. The leaves came out with less algae on them, so were better able to compete. Effective at knocking back BGA.
 
AndyMcD said:
I was very concerned about this too, until someone pointed out that plants posted to you can be in the dark for 3 days and arrive OK.

In my experience, the plants grew in the three days, but a bit more leggy. The leaves came out with less algae on them, so were better able to compete. Effective at knocking back BGA.
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That is a good point. With the changes the plants have had to endure recently as well as the fish I think I'm just going to manually remove the algae. Will try to add cardboard on the outside of the tank as suggested. Just about to start the 'cleanse' I will tank pictures to highlight the issues and post them when I can get to my desktop (doesn't seem to work on the phone).
 
So just a visual perspective of the journey so far. The first picture is pre soil but using other Walstad methods such as no gravel vac, no surface agitation, split photo period etc. Tank had 2 x t8 tubes at 25w a piece ph of 7.5, kh of 8dkh, GH of 6 temp of 25 degrees. You can the jungle val taking over and lots of BBA on gravel. You can also see the remnants of the less fortunate plants at the surface.
IMG_1233.JPG The next picture is after soil addition and full replant. All these plants died.
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The picture underneath is after full clean, AC addition and easy carbo. There is little to no algae.
IMG_1325.JPG Next photo is after carbon addition and another replant. No algae.
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Next is how it was before I culled. Now that I had gotten used to carbon injection I wanted to rescape. Still no BBA but this is where BGA comes in along the front.
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The next picture is after my cull and when things started to go pear shaped. PH drop and algae outbreak.
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The next pictures are of the algae as it stood before the final clean.
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and the last two are me cleaning and removing things.


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This is how it stands. The remaining BBA I spot treated with Easy carbo. Should I add a venture to my filter to further increase oxygen? I'm going to put a sponge on the intake of the fluval 205 and next clean add some bio rings.IMG_1561.JPG
 

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Soilwork, I've got a Venturi running overnight on a timer, set to switch on and off when CO2 isn't on. Having it running during lights on will lead to CO2 out gassing. I think it will be beneficial for bacteria, fish, plants to have more O2 in the dark. Andy


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AndyMcD said:
Soilwork, I've got a Venturi running overnight on a timer, set to switch on and off when CO2 isn't on. Having it running during lights on will lead to CO2 out gassing. I think it will be beneficial for bacteria, fish, plants to have more O2 in the dark. Andy


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Thanks Andy. I have just put my Venturi on. It's built in to the top of my internal filter so it's just a tube off of that. Having it on a timer would mean turning the pump off over night. I'm going to leave it running day and night. My 205 outlet is disturbing the water column as aggressively as possible anyway so I should be at equilibrium with atmosphere. Unfortunately I'm on a training course now as of tomorrow till Friday so won't be able to monitor the tank. Feeding is in the hands of my other half so fingers crossed.
 
sciencefiction said:
Hey soilwork. It's nice that you posted pictures of the progress.
Looking at the tank my guess is your substrate had been or is still anaerobic and the BGA is just an indicator of it.
Out of curiosity, what type of soil do you have underneath that gravel?
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Thanks SF. You might be right. When I siphoned the infected gravel out it made it uneven. I have an unused potato masher to flatten the substrate out again. Lots of bubbles came up when I did this but no rotten smells. I know this doesn't mean the substrate isn't struggling for oxygen. Can one get a redox meter for this? The soil is John innes number 3. Unmineralised. I notice soil is very common in this forum. This is not the case on the other forum I frequent. I wrote an article on there to try and persuade more people to give it a go. Lots of Walstad references etc but here is the link. http://www.aquariumadvice.com/forums/f12/the-soil-substrate-explained-343789.html
I just wish I'd have written it after my experiences.
 
sciencefiction said:
You've just been unlucky with soil. I wouldn't write it off yet. The issues are more likely because the soil was unmineralized and the tank didn't have enough oxygen to break down the organics when it needed to do so.
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Thanks for the vote of confidence. I do really regret not mineralising the soil first. Diana stopped doing this also so I figured I could get away with it too. The water was really cloudy this morning after the clean. Does not bode well for the autotrophs? 🙁
 
Cloudy water, apart from green water algae, is a booming explosion of heterotrophic bacteria. 🙂 You may have released them from the substrate. Heterotrophic bacteria can be facultative, in the substrate they live in anaerobic conditions breaking down organics but when released in the water column they become chemotrophs and start breaking down ammonia with the help of oxygen. The problem is they aren't very efficient in doing it, so they suck up the oxygen and displace proper nitrogen bacteria affecting the balance. They multiply by the hour, hence the cloudy water one normally sees.
I'd just make sure there is plenty of surface agitation.
 
Hi I'm back from my trip. Literally. Looking at the tank the algae is still doing pretty well. I left it with a 50% water change. Double filter clean, removing all floss. Oxygenation and flow is best I'm going to get it with the current set up. Fish are fine. Surprisingly plants are not that bad. BBA is growing back on the gravel and some leaves are growing BBA but general plant colour is ok but not massive amounts of growth. Downoi has probably done the best. Bare in mind I haven't dosed any fertilisers during this week. Just fish food. For the next week I could do a 50% water change and either a) dose EI for the week and observe changes b) add purigen and carbon to the filter and observe changes or c) both.

At this stage I am almost convinced the soil is 95% the cause of the algae.
 
If the soil is the issue, it may take a while until is resolved but it eventually should with some patience and care. If you fancy speeding it up, I'd get some cheap fast grower like hydrophila corymbosa. It grows fast and grows large roots, you can replant cuttings fairly easily. More plants in the substrate should help. Your tank has lots of room for more planting and what you have won't manage anytime soon. I'd even plant the front, temporarily, all with robust plants that you can one day throw away without regret. I'd say instead of aesthetics, more important now is balance the tank and sort the soil in the process. The current plants don't look too shabby so you may sort it out easier than anticipated.
It's only a suggestion of course.
 
I've had hygro before. It's a fast grower for sure. I've had this soil down for 4 months. I might just take it out altogether and try soil some other time, mineralising any future soil substrates. Perhaps I could just do sand and stick with the high flow/surface agitation method. I could just knock the co2 on and increase it gradually. It shouldn't cause any problems now the ph has stabilised.
 
Ok so I was having a think and I really want to get to the bottom of this algae issue. From my observations it seems the algae is still growing but not as fast. My plants do look a little worse for wear but my plan is as follows.

1) I've ordered some activated carbon, a mesh bag and some purigen. I'm going to add these to the canister.

2) I'm then going to start adding EI ferts maybe twice a week since without co2 they won't be required as heavily.

3) carry on with water changes but reduced volume for stability maybe 30%.

4) then I'm going to just leave the tank to try and work itself out. No disturbing of the substrate etc. Will pick out dead leaves etc.

I'm hoping that the plants will re-adapt their co2 uptake mechanisms to lower consistent co2 levels over time. If I have destroyed the majority of my nitrifying bacteria by disturbing the substrate I'm going to give it some time to stabilise, perhaps another month, that should account for a new fully efficient cycle.

If this doesn't change anything then I'll be injecting co2 again to see if that has an effect on the algae.

Does this sound reasonable? How long would you expect the soil to break break down most of the organics? I put quite a lot in. Walstad says 16 weeks to stabilise. That's about four months which is where I'm approaching now.
 
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