Twinstar..what is it?

[Ricardo Romão]

150 days the first and the second less than 2 months I think

 

[three-fingers]

@three-fingers
Please let me ask you, did you ever user twinstar? I mean the real, not the fake.

Why do you even need to ask this when I have stated multiple times I would not use this device on my tanks even if I was paid to do so? Have you fully read my posts?

Of course it can get algae, so because of it, it means that twinstar does not work?

Um...no? I have never once stated this. I have stated multiple times that any possible anti-algae effect from the ozone produced by the unit is minimal, not that the effects are non-existent. The pictures of the electrolysis disc confirm this, in my opinion anyway. You can disagree, but I don't know why you would after seeing that picture and reading this thread. Unless you think this unit works some other way than killing algae with ozone? Given the laws of physics and the objective evidence available, I think that is incredibly unlikely...dare I say impossible.

So which is it? Do you think it works in some other way, and if so, in what way? Or do you agree that it kills algae using ozone emitted from the disc, in which case, how can you maintain that it is effective at this when the disc itself gets covered in algae? :S The disc would be the area of highest ozone concentration, so the algae killing effect should be most evident here. The fact that algae thrives on the disc leads me to believe that the algae killing effect must be minimal, this would explain why the devices don't produce any noticeable negative effect from killing beneficial microbes, or visibly harm fish either.

In addition, can you explain how it could possibly harm algae without harming beneficial microorganisms? Because if you actually read my posts, you will see that I have stated many times that I think it may have a minimal negative effect on algae

If you have the same car accident in a porsche or in a fiat, of course, you can die in both, but where do you think you will have a higher probability to die? If you die in the porsche it means that the security in both cars are the same? 🙂

I don't see how this is question relates to anything I have posted. I get that you are trying to make an analogy, I just don't see why an analogy is required for whatever point you are tying to make, and I think it is a bad analogy too.

Algae depends on many factors. If you have 100mg/l of NO3 and 0mg/l of PO4, you expect no algae?

Yes, algae depends on many factors, this has already been agreed on multiple times by everyone in the thread. Nobody disagrees. Again I don't understand what point you are tying to make with this fact.

Twinstar is very effective to inhibit green algae. It is easy to test. Just put one in your aquarium and you will see you will have to clean the glasses much less. Easy, very easy test.

Not easy to test at all. Even to just get useless subjective results you must spend a minimum of £100 (multiply this to test multiple units on multiple set-ups) and already have multiple mature aquariums running. Generally the more established a tank becomes it requires less cleaning anyway, so the pattern you have described would happen with all planted tanks without Twinstars too.

Of course again twinstar will not explain exactly how it works, step by step, only why it works

As far as I can see, the only explanations as to "why it works" that Twinstar provide are essentially "because we say so", "because it is expensive" and "because some people with beautiful fish tanks have them".

Chinese already try to copy without it. Would you explain it? To allow others to copy your technology? When you go buy a car, do you ask more about specifications in turbo or something else? Manufacturers will not show you, only horse power, cc, emissions and so on...

Would I explain how my hypothetical ground-breaking product worked? Yes. Would I allow others to copy the technology? Maybe, depends how much bother it would be stopping them.

Comparing the marketing of this device to the marketing of cars does not further the discussion on how this device works. I have already stated above:

"I'm personally more interested in discussing the science of how the Twinstar works (or doesn't) than the reasons why the manufacturer won't tell us, I'll leave that speculation to others."

So please don't ask me again about something I have specifically stated I am not interested in, and is irrelevant to the discussion of how the Twinstar works (or doesn't).

Please see the pictures bellow and look how clean, crystal clear and how collorful they look like. The second one is one a shop, here you can see the video (with twintar light and twinstar sterilizer), this way you can see it is not photoshop:

Yay, more irrelevant pictures of tanks with Twinstars in them . I don't need a video to believe it isn't photoshop, I have seen plenty of beautiful planted tanks similar to these but without Twinstars.

This thread often seems like marketing more than discussion to be honest...lots of shop pictures of nice tanks from vendors of Twinstars. Showing pictures of nice tanks with Twinstars in them isn't remotely useful evidence.

As mentioned many times, such pictures with accompanying anecdotes are poor evidence because they are subjective, and are obviously going to feature some bias. If I had already spent over £100 on something, I would want to believe it works too.

As stated above:

"Burden of proof is on Twinstar or it's users to provide objective evidence that it works as advertised, not the other way around."

Absolutely lovely tank (other than the ugly white disc 😛). You should attribute this success to skill or experience, not some expensive gadget when you don't even know how/if it works.

I have an open mind, and as soon as there is any objective evidence that the Twinstar provides positive benefits for a planted tank without harming the animals or beneficial microbes, I will change my opinion on the product.

After 4 years with not a single piece of objective evidence, I'm not holding my breath. Lot's of crazy and ineffective aquarium devices/fads have come and gone in the past, some are still around. Just the fact that they exist and sell units doesn't say anything about their effectiveness.

 

[AverageWhiteBloke]

Crazy thread I'm following with interest. So many experienced scapers saying they are visually seeing benefits. I'm pretty sure this can't be placebo and I don't doubt their integrity in any way. A lot of these people have moved from Aquascaping being a hobby to being a living so their reputation is everything.
If the effects are minimal could it be that the minimal effect is the difference between a good tank and a great tank. It's a strange situation when people who usually can explain every bit of chemical/biological process in the aquarium in great detail just say they don't know what it's doing but it's doing something.
I was even having a quick look on instagram before and came across an ADA tank which appears to have a Twinstar in. The saga continues.

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

I have an open mind, and as soon as there is any objective evidence that the Twinstar provides positive benefits for a planted tank without harming the animals or beneficial microbes, I will change my opinion on the product.

That would be pretty much where I am as well.

I think there is scientific evidence that Sharps <"patented nano-bubble generator"> has <"anti-microbial activity">, but I think you are struggling after that, and I don't actually see that that is necessarily an advantage either.

So many experienced scapers saying they are visually seeing benefits. I'm pretty sure this can't be placebo and I don't doubt their integrity in any way.

It could definitely stop, some forms of, biofilm settling on the glass etc.

cheers Darrel

 

[AverageWhiteBloke]

Very interesting read, I have to be honest I generally don't get further than the first two paragraphs when it comes to these things, I generally just revert back to my 30 year tried and tested method of SPD (Solution to Pollution is Dilution) 😀 However in this instance I managed to read right through. Cross referencing with previous comments and the data I have to say that it looks highly likely that the micro bubbles theory is what is being used here whether the manufacturer wants to admit that or not. There does appear to be a small amount of animosity towards the manufacturer which is understandable I guess if they are not going to explain in full how their product works. They should know not to bring snake oil into a forum like this without backing that up especially with the amount of scientific knowledge that resides here. 🙂 I also appreciate that they want to protect their product. The Twinstar has already been copied to some extent, the patent for the theory of a cleaning action by micro bubbles is already out there which only leaves the effectiveness of the process being increased by the duration,intensity and timing of the bursts or the "algorithms" as the manufacturer is claiming. Unfortunately this is something that can also be reverse engineered and copied quite easily. In China I have seen a BMW X5 pretty much copied exactly then called something different so I'm guessing this isn't going to be a problem. It's what they do really well and then manufacture it at a much lower cost and more often than not avoid import tax. Unfortunately that's how global markets work.. but that's another story 😀

So, essentially it looks like the technology does have some kind of cleaning effect IF the presence of these Micro Bubbles does exist at the right size. The ref in Darrels link does refer to the cleaning of plants and surfaces as well as a few other pros but without the use of harsh chemicals especially with the likes of fruit which I suppose is a benefit if it's for human consumption. It doesn't sound dissimilar to the use of LC but without the benefit of elevated carbon levels the plants can utilise plus the benefits of not having to use dangerous chemicals. I suppose it just uses an electric charge and what already exists in the aquarium. It doesn't however remove the other various nasties that exist or build up of salts which can only be removed by a good WC regime and as for soft algae on surfaces, well I have a team of Ottos to deal with that which are very effective and a pleasure to watch 😉 It looks like someone has came across this technology and thought that it could be implemented in a planted aquarium with some benefits. I guess Twinstar doesn't want to expose the exact means because they feel their model does it better.

If carried out properly the use of micro bubbles does appear to have marginal benefits, mild sterilising effect,raised o2 levels increasing filter biological process's and reduction of water column algae spores consuming nutrients which can be replicated or in fact improved by a WC which is much cheaper. As such it looks like quite a good sticking plaster for people who don't have enough time on their hands but it isn't that answer to the main problem. More of a cure to some of the symptoms of bad tank keeping husbandry. That's why I bought one, leading up to the Xmas hols I was up to my neck in it work wise and stuff at home and I missed out on my usual routine. I can't comment on whether or not my situation has improved with its use as ironically being off work at Xmas meant I could spend more time on my tank so a filter and couple of large WC's have achieved that anyway. I can see its possible uses in newly setup tanks though where green surface algae, surface scum and brown diatoms seem to peak before moving on to some of the more PITA algae varieties. I know George Farmer seemed to get this impression with his new 600 aquascaper set up.

Would be interesting to get back into my usual weekly routine and then try a period with and a period without to see if any noticeable difference could be observed. This thing can be knocked off so might be a good temp remedy in times of problems rather than a long term solution. I guess anyway.

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

Unfortunately this is something that can also be reverse engineered and copied quite easily. ...... It's what they do really well and then manufacture it at a much lower cost.

They could use a much cheaper metal for the mesh, rather than platinum (Pt) coated titanium (Ti) (I assume that the Twinstar has this).

There is a discussion in <"Twinstar DIY">.

cheers Darrel

 

[AverageWhiteBloke]

Hmm, considering that there appears to be no black arts being used here the Chiros Doctor one is priced well enough without DIY'ng. Something just has a bad feel about it when we have people here trying to mix water with electric 😱😀
I bought from the "UK Warehouse" for around £50 although I have seen it on ebay same thing from China for around a tenner less. I was hoping it would be delivered faster and any UK tax paid so my conscience was clear, we need all the help we can get. Oh ok then, the faster delivery time was the main USP for me. I pay enough tax as it is 🙄 As it happens it still came 2 weeks later with a Chinese postal stamp on it! Once you have all the bits you then would have to replicate the timing it was on and duration. I like a DIY don't get me wrong, more to do with making stuff myself than cost but I think in this instance the hassle would far out weigh the cost and to be honest you're going to end up with something that looks plain ugly and possibly dangerous if not done correctly.
There's folk in that thread wiring up laptop battery chargers to steel mesh and then putting it underwater. What could possibly go wrong. I just hope they're knocking these things off while their hands are in the tank.

 

[Robert H. Tavera]

what twinstar does is quite simple It generates oxigen peroxide that is harmful for algae, green algae absorbs oxigen peroxide and dies. having a twinstar is like adding oxigen peroxide to your tank in a regular basis, lots of people add oxigen peroxide to kill green algae.

Its like amano´s history of co2, insted of adding carbonated water to the tanks, he started diffusing co2 from a tank. Here insted of keep adding h2o2 we generate it constantly.

i own a twinstar nano and i use it in my new setups just or one or two months, once the tank has mature it goes out... and yes it works, it makes the aquarium set um much easier, but its not an esential gadget.

harmful for fish..... i think its a little harmful, it cant just be perfect. but a little h2o2 for a short period of time can perfectly been tolerated by fish. in my personal opinion it shoudn´t be used for long periods of time.

 

[Tomhog]

Looks like electrolysis creating oxygen and hydrogen, but there are other compounds in our water. Who know what else get broken up with electrolysis. Are we certain it is safe having this type of process happening inside our house?

 

[AverageWhiteBloke]

what twinstar does is quite simple It generates oxigen peroxide that is harmful for algae, green algae absorbs oxigen peroxide and dies. having a twinstar is like adding oxigen peroxide to your tank in a regular basis, lots of people add oxigen peroxide to kill green algae.

Its like amano´s history of co2, insted of adding carbonated water to the tanks, he started diffusing co2 from a tank. Here insted of keep adding h2o2 we generate it constantly.

i own a twinstar nano and i use it in my new setups just or one or two months, once the tank has mature it goes out... and yes it works, it makes the aquarium set um much easier, but its not an esential gadget.

harmful for fish..... i think its a little harmful, it cant just be perfect. but a little h2o2 for a short period of time can perfectly been tolerated by fish. in my personal opinion it shoudn´t be used for long periods of time.

Yeah I think that's pretty much where I am with it right now. Going to do another 50% WC today before I start back work on Monday which is the third in a week which should get me back on track for the missed ones. Hopefully I can keep on top of my routine again. Going to knock off the Doctor for a while but leave it in the tank. I see it being a handy device that I'll use when setting up a new tanks, times when I've had to miss WC's and when adding new live stock. Looking at my tank lately is does appear to be very clean other than the usual algae I've been battling with on some plant leaves which the Doctor doesn't claim to tackle anyway. Not sure if this is down to the Doctor or the Ottos, I just know I haven't had to clean any glass for a long time. The ottos have even stripped it down to gravel level. They have full bellies for now and a couple have just discovered algae wafers but I don't think it will do any harm to have a bit of soft green algae about for them.

 

[Jack Reilly]

I've had the chihiros doctor for many months now and I'm convinced it does nothing to combat algae. I have all types of algae growing. There's been no difference in algae growth.

It could be Placebo but the water appears very clear with the good doctor running. That appears to be the only benefit. Can't speak to the twinstar though.

 

[AverageWhiteBloke]

I've had the chihiros doctor for many months now and I'm convinced it does nothing to combat algae. I have all types of algae growing. There's been no difference in algae growth.

I guess that depends on what algae you're talking about. As fas I am aware it destroys algae spores on a cellular level in the water column preventing things like green water and stopping these spores feeding off nutrients leaving more for the plants to feed off. It doesn't claim to do anything about algae attached to hardscape, you are going to need to remove those manually or attack with LC or hydrogen peroxide.

As far as I can tell, going off some serious scapers who I've seen using these they appear to be beneficial when first starting up a tank at killing the lighter algaes, diatoms that sort of thing, the ones you generally get before a tank is fully matured.

As for the clearer water, I know what you mean, possibly the higher oxygen levels it creates? I have noticed clearer water but put purigen in my canister about 6 weeks ago so I can't say either way.

 

[Daveslaney]

Never used one personally.
But judging by the comments on peoples experiances.Comments on how it works.I think it prob does raise the ORP poss reduce DOCsAlgae spores in the water collumn.Much the same as H2O2 or Ozone would.
I can see the advantage of this on new set ups.On a established tank with good maintenance i think you will see little or no difference.
Thats just my thoughts,Where im at with this at the min.
If i was setting a new tank up would i get one? Yes.

 

[AverageWhiteBloke]

I also find the possible raised O2 levels a potential benefit. My tank is quite heavily stocked and surface agitation low. Saves on co2 which there is still some left in the morning keeping the DC green throughout the day to deal with a bit of sunlight on the tank. I could aerate through the night but that means a noisy pump running and de-gassing of co2 so when my tanks had recently cleaned filter I tend to just switch it on before I go to bed for a bit of extra o2 and the slight cleansing a bit of a bonus. If that's what it is doing which seems to be the general census of opinion.

When I'm busy at work and a good clean out is over due I will leave it on 24/7 to maybe give the filter a boost. Plus it's there if I ever want to set up a new tank to hopefully aid in the tank maturing and the initial stage algae.

 

[Jack Reilly]

I guess that depends on what algae you're talking about. As fas I am aware it destroys algae spores on a cellular level in the water column preventing things like green water and stopping these spores feeding off nutrients leaving more for the plants to feed off. It doesn't claim to do anything about algae attached to hardscape, you are going to need to remove those manually or attack with LC or hydrogen peroxide.

Perhaps that's why I'm not impressed. I've never had an issue with green water. I have bba (which I already knew it did nothing about ) , hair algae and green spot algae. It doesn't seem to have any affect on these. I remove all signs of these during maintenance and they come right back.

I also do EI dosing so nutrients aren't in short supply. Perhaps good for a new tank, don't know if that makes it worth the price of admission. Also it's pretty ugly in a nano.

 

[Baqi Bullah]

@Ricardo Romão

Thank you for your recent posts. One question between real and fake
can you tell the difference between real & fake twinstar device see on planted tank while it is ruining.

 

[AverageWhiteBloke]

Essentially no, although there is still much debate about what these things are doing and the benefits they both appear to be doing the same thing.
Very fine mist of small bubbles and some larger, supposedly pure oxygen bubbles.
So other than the Twinstar being about £100 more expensive they appear to be doing the same thing. Twinstar claim to use an "algorithm" special designed I would imagine so that the algae and bacteria cells don't have chance to multiply while avoiding over dosing but without having one of each running side by side it's hard to say whether the chihros one has copied the interval time between bursts, duration of bursts and intensity.

 

[Baqi Bullah]

Truly but i am still waiting for expert @Ricardo Romão comments.

 

[Tim Harrison]

Not sure if this has been brought up before, but where do you get your replacement reactors for the Nano II?

 

[Ricardo Romão]

@Ricardo Romão

Thank you for your recent posts. One question between real and fake
can you tell the difference between real & fake twinstar device see on planted tank while it is ruining.

I'm sorry for my late reply. We have been very busy with the new models 🙂

Sure, despite the quality on materials, the program which controls the Twinstar is completely different. If not controlled properly, electrolysis can be harmful for both fish and plants.