Smells Fishy
Member
Got some really good vibes from this, it's been really inspirational reading it all through. Is this project finished or is there still more to add?
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The Celestial Swamp - A voyage through a flooded forest fringe (Shallow Riparium)
hitmanx
Member
Stunning
What did you use as the baseboard for the tank? Is it marine ply?
The tank is sitting on yoga mat on cabinet grade maple plywood with BIN 123 primer...
hitmanx
Member
Things are not looking good for this tank... most of the h. Tripartita has died back for some reason and it and the Helanthium tenellum has been overrun by a thick blackish algae in the middle of the tank... too much light? Not enough ferts despite adding on a weekly basis? The front carpet looks terrible... but some of the h. Tripartita has actually started to grow emersed in the back...
Perhaps the riparium plants are just taking too much nutrients from the water... it's hard to keep a balance between the submerged and emersed plant needs... the fastest grower is the Ficus pumila and I've heard it's a huge nutrients hog... the syngonium doesn't like the riparium planters as the stems are rotting off where they didnt before when they were in the shower caddies...
I think it's time to do a siphon clean as mulm has started to accumulate on the substrate and in the bottom of the sump... I have not actually done a water change yet... just filled the sump with 5 gallons of RO water per week due to evaporation...
I moved around some of the riparium plants but I'm not sure if I like the changes... I'll get some pictures up after I do some housekeeping...
At least a dozen fish have jumped out and I usually find them after I've done maintenance on the tank... I guess I'm spooking them... the only babies I've seen are from the endlers down in the sump... speaking of the sump there still at least a half dozen or more fish down there that I cannot catch... mostly celestichthys erythromycin... they are so fast and so good at hiding... perhaps I will take everything out of the sump when I clean it so they can't hide...
I still need to get a more powerful pump for this tank as I'm using a 550gph pump currently and I think it's not powerfull enough to fully balance the bean animal system... I cannot get it quiet!
Perhaps the riparium plants are just taking too much nutrients from the water... it's hard to keep a balance between the submerged and emersed plant needs... the fastest grower is the Ficus pumila and I've heard it's a huge nutrients hog... the syngonium doesn't like the riparium planters as the stems are rotting off where they didnt before when they were in the shower caddies...
I think it's time to do a siphon clean as mulm has started to accumulate on the substrate and in the bottom of the sump... I have not actually done a water change yet... just filled the sump with 5 gallons of RO water per week due to evaporation...
I moved around some of the riparium plants but I'm not sure if I like the changes... I'll get some pictures up after I do some housekeeping...
At least a dozen fish have jumped out and I usually find them after I've done maintenance on the tank... I guess I'm spooking them... the only babies I've seen are from the endlers down in the sump... speaking of the sump there still at least a half dozen or more fish down there that I cannot catch... mostly celestichthys erythromycin... they are so fast and so good at hiding... perhaps I will take everything out of the sump when I clean it so they can't hide...
I still need to get a more powerful pump for this tank as I'm using a 550gph pump currently and I think it's not powerfull enough to fully balance the bean animal system... I cannot get it quiet!
I had similar ish issues with my sump tank. I had not cleaned the filter foam in the sump for probably 4 months, having been seduced by the mattenfilter propaganda. The sump then started backing up because the foam was blocked. So I cleaned everything and very quickly saw big reduction in that black furry algae that was smothering plants.
Suggest cleaning and some proper water changes before you start with more this, less that etc.
Suggest cleaning and some proper water changes before you start with more this, less that etc.
I suspect this is a major contributor
- while you somejtimes get just the right balance in a tank from the start & tank self regulates algae, this is a rare happening
Visible mulm generally means significant organic load in the water column which tends to be a nice benefit for algae
It's a lovely idea that going with a "celestial swamp" would balance submerse & emerse plants & provide brilliant clear water (& likely someone's done just that
) but it ain't easy I play around with low tech window nano tanks, some have virtually no algae, others have become swamps & recovered
& others have been broken down & restarted
hitmanx
Member
Thanks guys... I figured this to be the case... I'll get some pictures up tonight and get ready for a good cleaning... I suspect the transition from growing environments for all these plants and the inevitable rotting of some roots and leaves and the shear mass of decaying plant matter despite trying my best to clean and collect the dead stuff, has contributed to higher organics...
I just hope a water change doesn't disrupt the water chemistry too much... I'll start with a 30% change..
I just hope a water change doesn't disrupt the water chemistry too much... I'll start with a 30% change..
hitmanx
Member
Here is the algae:
And here's a "moon light" shot... itshe actually darker than it looks...
And here's a "moon light" shot... itshe actually darker than it looks...
Last edited:
Also... i have Pearl Danios in the tank, they were a poor choice because the jump. However, i have a completely unproven theory that the amount of jumping is related to water quality. I started with 20 and there was a fairly high suicide rate, since cleaning etc as above the "leap to their death" rate has dropped noticeably. As I said, completely unproven
And give it a good bit of time after you clean, a couple of weeks, before you judge the effectiveness.
And give it a good bit of time after you clean, a couple of weeks, before you judge the effectiveness.
There's no doubt that fish will jump n search of ,better" environs (can be water quality related or behavioural stressors ... just don't ask me to find the journal links - though Darrel may have them at the ready )
Physically remove as much algae as possible - at this stage it looks like trimming will be most of what you do (leafs that heavily infiltrated with algae are useless to plant now anyway) - H tenellus & H tripartita are both capable of fairly rapid recovery IF conditions support this
I'd do 25-30% daily water changes for the next week, thenalternate day, then twice weekly - then settle on a once weekly 60-70% water change & continue with this until plants are thriving for a few weeks before considering reducing water change schedule
At each water change, remove debris & any algae, spot treat with liquid carbon (Seachem Excel etc) if appropriate (can't recall what's in tank exactly), I'd also add a daily dose of Excel etc for it's algacide benefits (some plants will also utilize as a carbon source)
For fertilation of tank, again daily is better option than weekly, you should be able to tell from submerse plant growth if they are getting much/enough or if the emerse growth is stealing it all - also trim this back to improve lighting for substrate plants or add a directed spotlight (think kessil style, though lots of other options as water column is shallow)
If you're getting it right, tank should look noticeable greener after 1-2 weeks ... again if CO2 supplied submerse plants will respond quicker
Whose on your algae patrol?
- though Darrel may have them at the ready )A good start
Physically remove as much algae as possible - at this stage it looks like trimming will be most of what you do (leafs that heavily infiltrated with algae are useless to plant now anyway) - H tenellus & H tripartita are both capable of fairly rapid recovery IF conditions support this
I'd do 25-30% daily water changes for the next week, thenalternate day, then twice weekly - then settle on a once weekly 60-70% water change & continue with this until plants are thriving for a few weeks before considering reducing water change schedule
At each water change, remove debris & any algae, spot treat with liquid carbon (Seachem Excel etc) if appropriate (can't recall what's in tank exactly), I'd also add a daily dose of Excel etc for it's algacide benefits (some plants will also utilize as a carbon source)
For fertilation of tank, again daily is better option than weekly, you should be able to tell from submerse plant growth if they are getting much/enough or if the emerse growth is stealing it all - also trim this back to improve lighting for substrate plants or add a directed spotlight (think kessil style, though lots of other options as water column is shallow)
If you're getting it right, tank should look noticeable greener after 1-2 weeks ... again if CO2 supplied submerse plants will respond quicker
Whose on your algae patrol?
cookie.dou
Member
There's no doubt that fish will jump n search of ,better" environs (can be water quality related or behavioural stressors ... just don't ask me to find the journal links
A good start
Physically remove as much algae as possible - at this stage it looks like trimming will be most of what you do (leafs that heavily infiltrated with algae are useless to plant now anyway) - H tenellus & H tripartita are both capable of fairly rapid recovery IF conditions support this
I'd do 25-30% daily water changes for the next week, thenalternate day, then twice weekly - then settle on a once weekly 60-70% water change & continue with this until plants are thriving for a few weeks before considering reducing water change schedule
At each water change, remove debris & any algae, spot treat with liquid carbon (Seachem Excel etc) if appropriate (can't recall what's in tank exactly), I'd also add a daily dose of Excel etc for it's algacide benefits (some plants will also utilize as a carbon source)
For fertilation of tank, again daily is better option than weekly, you should be able to tell from submerse plant growth if they are getting much/enough or if the emerse growth is stealing it all - also trim this back to improve lighting for substrate plants or add a directed spotlight (think kessil style, though lots of other options as water column is shallow)
If you're getting it right, tank should look noticeable greener after 1-2 weeks ... again if CO2 supplied submerse plants will respond quicker
Whose on your algae patrol?
As per Alto, manually remove everything. Algae from my experience can be suppressed by strong plant growth. It looks like your current plants aren't taking off. If that's the case, I would actually reduce light period or intensity (monitor effects) and make sure that plants are growing before dosing. I would stop dosing altogether and just make sure that you have adequate gH (3-4). If your plants arent using the light, something will (in other words algae).
hitmanx
Member
Yesterday before the trim...
With risk of being flamed, I have to say no... I will not be engaging in the suggested water change regime... these are my opinions and I welcome discussion...
While I do agree that a regular water change schedule is needed in many circumstances, I cannot agree that this is one of them... there simply isn't enough of a bioload to justify such a drastic schedule... cleaning the mulm etc will be a priority but a long term regular change schedule will not…
I will concede that I should have made a more conscious effort to watch out for higher organics but mainly from rotting plants as they transitioned... I will point out that all of the plants were doing amazing with lush growth all over… but over time the plants died back, mainly the Hydrocotyle tripartita, before the algae hit, not after… and this coincided with the time the riparium plants began to take off…
The water parameters checked out and the fish and shrimp were happy… and take any massively open top tank and show an example of jumping prone fish NOT jumping… it's a matter of them feeling comfortable… as time has progressed the riparium and floating plants have covered the margins and therefore have given the fish a more closed in feel and suicides have dropped… it also didn't help having an aggressive female Lyretail that relentlessly chased any other fish…
My point is that it's not impossible to find a balance for a tank and I just don't subscribe to the throw as much water at it as you can method as a blanket statement for all problems… I'm sure you can find many examples of such tanks also fraught with algae… it's a different story for high a bioload where fish welfare is priority...
The shear biomass of plants that sustain themselves from this tank on the outside dwarf the average tanks submerged growth… take all your plants in you best tank and render them down into a jar and you will find that they don't actually take up that much space… the mass just isn't there…
There has to be more complicated variables at play here that need to be experimented with… soil redox? Ferts? To much light? Plant competition? I did add a bunch of Ficus pumila before the submerged growth started going down hill and I've heard that it's a nutrient hog… is the assumption that the cause is high organics just because of mulm accumulation? Or the actuall algae species?
Anyways, I sucked all the mulm I could find and cut a lot of the algae leaves out and changed out 30% of the water…
I will do so again in 2 days and see where I am at… i will be cleaning out the poret filter this week too... hopefully I haven't offended anyone...
With risk of being flamed, I have to say no... I will not be engaging in the suggested water change regime... these are my opinions and I welcome discussion...
While I do agree that a regular water change schedule is needed in many circumstances, I cannot agree that this is one of them... there simply isn't enough of a bioload to justify such a drastic schedule... cleaning the mulm etc will be a priority but a long term regular change schedule will not…
I will concede that I should have made a more conscious effort to watch out for higher organics but mainly from rotting plants as they transitioned... I will point out that all of the plants were doing amazing with lush growth all over… but over time the plants died back, mainly the Hydrocotyle tripartita, before the algae hit, not after… and this coincided with the time the riparium plants began to take off…
The water parameters checked out and the fish and shrimp were happy… and take any massively open top tank and show an example of jumping prone fish NOT jumping… it's a matter of them feeling comfortable… as time has progressed the riparium and floating plants have covered the margins and therefore have given the fish a more closed in feel and suicides have dropped… it also didn't help having an aggressive female Lyretail that relentlessly chased any other fish…
My point is that it's not impossible to find a balance for a tank and I just don't subscribe to the throw as much water at it as you can method as a blanket statement for all problems… I'm sure you can find many examples of such tanks also fraught with algae… it's a different story for high a bioload where fish welfare is priority...
The shear biomass of plants that sustain themselves from this tank on the outside dwarf the average tanks submerged growth… take all your plants in you best tank and render them down into a jar and you will find that they don't actually take up that much space… the mass just isn't there…
There has to be more complicated variables at play here that need to be experimented with… soil redox? Ferts? To much light? Plant competition? I did add a bunch of Ficus pumila before the submerged growth started going down hill and I've heard that it's a nutrient hog… is the assumption that the cause is high organics just because of mulm accumulation? Or the actuall algae species?
Anyways, I sucked all the mulm I could find and cut a lot of the algae leaves out and changed out 30% of the water…
I will do so again in 2 days and see where I am at… i will be cleaning out the poret filter this week too... hopefully I haven't offended anyone...
hitmanx
Member
I offended you with my opinion?
You should hear the ones I keep to myself
(Sarcasm... just in case I offended you)
You should hear the ones I keep to myself
(Sarcasm... just in case I offended you)
hitmanx
Member
Blackout would be impossible...
Why do you think this is not a valid assumption?
this is a hint as to why organics may be an issue, especially an "imbalance" - look at any ADA shop & they'll suggest water changes as the road to redemption
You mentioned you'd done no water changes on the tank since set up, so it's my assumption that any minerals, organic compounds etc not removed by the emergent plants will be accumulating in the water column & soil (depending on binding affinity) - as you've been topping up with RO, there won't be accumulations from evaporating tap water but consider your fertilizer salts, eg, if potassium is supplied as potassium chloride, where's the chloride going?
also your starting components ...
This is independent of any livestock considerations
In addition established algae can be quite persuasive at discouraging nearby plant growth - again if any of these factors are being released into the water column, water change is the simplest method of dilution/removal
That's like chasing the mice out of the garden when you've got a herd of cows standing in there (& doing all the things that a herd of cows might do in a garden
... of course it's unlikely you've had this experience so my analogy might fall flat )Light & nutrients, especially Carbon, then the supporting nutrients usually added in "fertilizer" preparations are the main factors ... you make it sound as if the thriving plant growth died back rapidly with no time to intervene
& now the underwater "plant" life is dominated by algae & mulm
How have you been altering light & fertilization as the tank has matured?
Finding the balance in a tank is what most of us are striving for - your tank that once had thriving aquatic plants has shifted far from its previous "balance" - water changes are a simple & swift way to reset that balance, to move the aquatic environs away from the present dominating factors (which may be varied or limited, there's too little information to guess which might prevail)
It's much more difficult (complex) to balance a virtual closed system than one with flow (water changes)
I agree emerse growth can easily outmass submerse growth, but isn't this why trimming & adjusting the types of emerse growth is vital to sustaining the (desired) system
- I've a tendency to allow my submerse growth to go "jungle" - even in just the 60cm x 45cm tank, it easily fills a bucket rather than a jar
& back at ya
zozo
Member
Lately listened an interview with a professional fish breeder about the importance of filtration.. He told a lot has changed in general consensus and views during the last decades. Mainly by trail and error.. He told a story about a Colleague professional fish breeder who had health issues and a lot of unexplained fish deaths. Water tests came out perfectly clean it was not a chemical issue and it remained a big mystery for a long time why a lot of his fish became sick and died.. At that time the general consensus was that very large biological filtration systems were self supporting and maintenance free. Still after searching and trying alot, he descided to clean out the filtration system.
And that was the solution to his problem, no more fish death. He did put it to the test with leaving the filter as is for a long period of time and the problems started again. Further investigation revealed his filter system was an accumulation and breeding ground of pathogens causing the fish diseases, while chemicaly the water stayed in perfect condition.
This fish breeders experience was the exeption that proved the rule and caused a change of general consensus among the fish breeders views about the importancy of cleaning filter systems.. Obviously a self supporting and maintenece free filtraion system doesn't realy excist regarding pathogens. The others not suffering from this issues till then, likely just have been lucky yet not having caught any pathogens in their system.
The same goes for the idea of not seeing the necessity of doing water changes.. It is not a matter of accumulating chemicals but accumulating pathogens in the tank and filter. At the point you find out you did, fish will get sick and die.
From this point of view, not only filter cleaning but also water changes are a necessity to prevent your closed system from becomming a pathogen breeding box.. That's the flame you rather need to worry about.
But it's a very beatifull Paludarium you got there.. Lots of luck and succes..
And that was the solution to his problem, no more fish death. He did put it to the test with leaving the filter as is for a long period of time and the problems started again. Further investigation revealed his filter system was an accumulation and breeding ground of pathogens causing the fish diseases, while chemicaly the water stayed in perfect condition.
This fish breeders experience was the exeption that proved the rule and caused a change of general consensus among the fish breeders views about the importancy of cleaning filter systems.. Obviously a self supporting and maintenece free filtraion system doesn't realy excist regarding pathogens. The others not suffering from this issues till then, likely just have been lucky yet not having caught any pathogens in their system.
The same goes for the idea of not seeing the necessity of doing water changes.. It is not a matter of accumulating chemicals but accumulating pathogens in the tank and filter. At the point you find out you did, fish will get sick and die.
From this point of view, not only filter cleaning but also water changes are a necessity to prevent your closed system from becomming a pathogen breeding box..
That's the flame you rather need to worry about.But it's a very beatifull Paludarium you got there.. Lots of luck and succes..
