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Still have algae...too much light still?

I Just cannot get this right!!!
The algae is still there and still appearing on other leaves.
I am 99.9% certain it has something to do with co2 and I just cannot get it right. I have been injecting co2 for about 6mths now, and I have not been able to adjust for optimum.
Yet again, I have had it settled for a few days and today, yet again, the fish are showing signs of distress and are at the top of the tank. I know it does not really mean much, but my drop checker is at lime green, but not that light in colour.
I was keeping an eye on ph today but at 1.30pm I had to turn the co2 down so did not check after that until just now. I will take a full day tomorrow but as far as it goes here are todays readings.
Before co2.................7.6
1hr before lights on....7.1
Noon..........................6.9
1pm...........................6.8
3.15pm......................6.7 And these figures just look wrong!
Now I do not know whether high alkalinity can cause a problem or not but according to my Water Company ours is 321 mgHco3/l
But I think my main problem is that I cannot seem to match co2 to lights on to co2 off.
The only other thing I can think of is that my fish appear to be ultra sensitive to co2 (maybe they are just winding me up:( ) and I am already adding 4ml of Carbon to try and help the plants. I did at one stage dose about 7ml to help with getting the algae under control but that did not work either!
May be I am not really capable, even with all the wonderful help on this forum!
 
Hi Bertie,
I've lost track of how much flow rating you have there with the three pumps and the filter. What is the total and what is the tank volume? With an alkalinity that high, you may not need to drive the pH that low. In fact, the DC should be yellow with that amount of CO2, so it looks like somehow you are off-gassing the CO2. The surface should ripple but should not be broken such as when bubbles burst. Also, you were using an Up Atomizer, right, however I don't see any mist in that photo you showed, so that seems a bit puzzling as well.

Cheers,
 
ceg4048 said:
Hi Bertie,
I've lost track of how much flow rating you have there with the three pumps and the filter. What is the total and what is the tank volume? With an alkalinity that high, you may not need to drive the pH that low. In fact, the DC should be yellow with that amount of CO2, so it looks like somehow you are off-gassing the CO2. The surface should ripple but should not be broken such as when bubbles burst. Also, you were using an Up Atomizer, right, however I don't see any mist in that photo you showed, so that seems a bit puzzling as well.

Cheers,
Click to expand...

Clive, Where do you think the PH should be?
 
Hi Clive,
Yes I am using a UP Atomizer.
My tank is 180 Litres.
I have an Eheim Pro 3 rated at 900lph and the 3 NuWave pumps are rated 800 - 1600 lph and I have them at prob half way so about 1000lph each which would make the rating about 3900 lph although it does not appear to be a massive current.
The surface is rippling well but there does not appear to be any surface breaks. There are thousands of tiny buubles in the water but they do not seem to want to show on photo. When the co2 is on, the underneath of the surface gets covered in co2 bubbles as well.
I have the spraybar just under the surface and facing horizontally facing the front glass.
Thanks
 
John S said:
Clive, Where do you think the PH should be?
Click to expand...
Well, 321 ppm HCO3 is a fairly high alkalinity. The simple conversion of 1dKH= 17.8 ppm HCO3 means that the KH equivalent is about 18 dKH. That's a lot of resistance to pH change, so dropping the pH by 1 unit in 18 KH water requires loads more acid than dropping the pH by 1 unit in 4 KH water, for example.

So a 0.5 unit drop in that water should be fine, It means that there is plenty of CO2, and that's why the fish start to gag as the pH is driven lower later during the day, because the CO2 at that point is over-driven. That part is easy. What's baffling is that the plants continue to suffer CO2 shortfall even though the flow appears to be really good.

So now I want to look at the distribution, because that's the only thing left, assuming that the lighting is not over-the-top.

I think the injection rate is not too low and can be lowered to reduce fish suffering hypercapnia.

We need to play with the pump location and output.

Bert, can you try moving the 3 pumps above the spraybar, increasing their output and take another set of readings?
We leave it like that for a few days and then, if no joy, we try moving the pumps to one of the side walls and turning the flow up as plantbrain mentioned. But do not panic, or lose patience. As I told you before, CO2 is a very tricky business. Each tank has a riddle that must be solved.

Cheers,
 
Hi Clive,
That will mean I have to significantly drop the spraybar as the pumps will need water to operate? I will have to add some more tubing to allow the spraybar to drop that low. My lighting by the way is 2 x 45w T5's.
One other thing Clive....I have looked and the co2 bubbles do slide down the front glass and head back towards the back glass!
Thanks for your help.
 
Bert, what is the distance from the bulbs to the substrate approximately?

OK, that seems like too much modification. Nix that idea. Can you increase their outputs to see if that has an effect?
If the mist is headed in the right direction then there shouldn't be a problem, but try increasing the flow a little.

Cheers,
 
Hi Clive,
The distance from the tubes to substrate is 38cm.....I will increase the pumps output to at least 3/4 and I am doing a 50% water change this morning and will do a full day ph reading with the increased pump output.
 
ceg4048 said:
Well, 321 ppm HCO3 is a fairly high alkalinity. The simple conversion of 1dKH= 17.8 ppm HCO3 means that the KH equivalent is about 18 dKH. That's a lot of resistance to pH change, so dropping the pH by 1 unit in 18 KH water requires loads more acid than dropping the pH by 1 unit in 4 KH water, for example.

So a 0.5 unit drop in that water should be fine, It means that there is plenty of CO2, and that's why the fish start to gag as the pH is driven lower later during the day, because the CO2 at that point is over-driven. That part is easy. What's baffling is that the plants continue to suffer CO2 shortfall even though the flow appears to be really good.

So now I want to look at the distribution, because that's the only thing left, assuming that the lighting is not over-the-top.

I think the injection rate is not too low and can be lowered to reduce fish suffering hypercapnia.

We need to play with the pump location and output.

Bert, can you try moving the 3 pumps above the spraybar, increasing their output and take another set of readings?
We leave it like that for a few days and then, if no joy, we try moving the pumps to one of the side walls and turning the flow up as plantbrain mentioned. But do not panic, or lose patience. As I told you before, CO2 is a very tricky business. Each tank has a riddle that must be solved.

Cheers,
Click to expand...

Thanks Clive. I'm asking as my water will bet the same as Berties. So just to check my understating, in this case, we are looking for a 0.5 PH drop before lights?
 
foxfish said:
Hi Bert, I thought you were only using one bulb at the moment?
Click to expand...

I was fox for 6 weeks or more, but it was making no difference whatsoever so been on two for about a week at 6hrs duration.....Nothing I seem to do makes a difference. I am going to increase my pump output as Clive suggests and I have already doubled my PO4. Will take more ph readings throughout the day.
 
Sorry to here about all you concerns Bert, the tank looks ok from the picture!
So your pants are growing but you have some algae?
It seems to me from you info that you have enough C02 going in & you cant increase the amount anyway because you fish will suffer so it seems to me that reducing your light should stop the algae. The point is if you were getting algae with one light switching to two wont help!!
I have had difficult tanks in the past too, it is very frustrating when things don't work, you are not the only one on the forum having problems though.
In my case it is normally about flow due to hardscape - wood rocks etc. I have had to eject so much C02 on some tanks & then compensate with loads of surface movement, that it just became impractical to carry on with the tank!
It is so difficult to pinpoint your problem from afar, you seem to have all the basic components in place but not quite configured perfectly.
It is a fact though, that with less light you need less C02 but, even then you need the right flow to feed it to the plants, if you saw no change with one light then perhaps it is the flow?
 
Hi Fox,
I thought at first that doubling my PO4 would help but not at the mo.
The thing is,that although the algae is still there and growing on new growth (the wife cannot see it by the way she is one arm chair further away) It has not "increased" any more with two lights if you get my meaning.
It is not horrendous like some tanks I have seen but I find it unattractive and annoying. ;) I have said to the wife that I thought I needed an overtank lighting system to have "more control" but she is yet to be convinced that the expense is worth it unless I can prove that it will stop this nonsense! :( So I cannot win that one.;)
 
Just had to turn down one of the pumps as I now have a foreground plant floating around the tank in minute pieces............and I have just done a 50% water change!
 
foxfish said:
Sorry to here about all you concerns Bert, the tank looks ok from the picture!
So your pants are growing but you have some algae?
?
Click to expand...

LOL bloody Iphone is to small.... I meant to write PLANTS not PANTS lol
Try & take some more detailed picture Bert....
 
I still have a feeling that 2 x 54W (reflectors ?) over 180litre is bordering on the high'ish side. I have 50W over 180litres and not suffered any green algae at all (ok slight green tinge on glass at substrate level when starting up). At start up I ran for a month or two, short light on time (4 hours) and no reflectors until the tank "settled down".

Now run 2 x 25W with reflectors for 9hours and no green algae, slight BBA on fittings, but none on plants.

Try putting darkened plastic between the lights and tank. Some people have stretched black tights over lights and reflector to lower light level.
 
ian_m said:
I still have a feeling that 2 x 54W (reflectors ?) over 180litre is bordering on the high'ish side. I have 50W over 180litres and not suffered any green algae at all (ok slight green tinge on glass at substrate level when starting up). At start up I ran for a month or two, short light on time (4 hours) and no reflectors until the tank "settled down".
Click to expand...
Hi Ian,
I am in fact running 2 x 45w without reflectors...I did have it running for over 6 weeks with a tube blocked off with not a noticeable difference to the algae. I have only been back running for a week with 2 lights and the algae has not increased, it just has not decreased either.
I think it would be better with an overtank system running 2 x 39w but cannot convince the wife of that! ;)
May be if Clive suggested it she would listen......after all she did the last time he told her off :)
 
I am wondering if the algae is all that bad.:D Can't see much algae in photo,color look's good on plant's,CO2 appear's to be at maximum for present fauna,plenty of flow,nutrient's are being provided per EI.?
I might be tempted to do as Tom (Plantbrain) suggested, and add several more crypt plant's, and wait to see what two or three week's bring's under present condition's.
We know that six week's of one bulb brought no changes for worse or better,and ditto for a week with both bulb's.
Maybe more plant's will make thing's more difficult for algae you are seeing, without any further adjustment's,stress.
If you feel that two 39 watt bulb's to replace the 45 watt are something you want to try,,then maybe you can purchase the 39 watt bulb's to fit current fixture?
Just my two cent's.
I'm feelin ya! and is these kind of thread's that give me pause to re-consider the gas ,knowing my tendency for outburst's that have in the past sent cat's,dog's,neighbor's , runnin for cover.:rolleyes:
 
I have to adjust co2 as it is affecting the fish too much because of my water having high alkalinity. I have added new plants this week but over the last 6 months I have in actual fact spent a fortune on plants only to lose them.
I have new problems but will post this evening when I have a more clear picture.
 
Is your water from a well ? Read somewhere of someone having horrendous algae issues and he was using well water. Quick sterilise of water and neutralise (and even UV) before use and not algae issue any more.
 
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