Lean dosing pros and cons

[Hanuman]

Hi @Hanuman, Well, come on now, I never implied I was convinced by the talking and the recipes... Just to give you an example of what I find compelling:

From Sudipta's intro post

Beautiful plants I agree, yet far from what we are talking here. Here, I am attaching the description of those pictures. That's a low tech tank. Why would anyone dose EI or similar levels of ferts in a low tech with no CO2 injection? Aren't we implying high tech when we are referring to "lean dosing" ? Just saying.

I am also attaching pictures of all 4 of my current non-CO2 supplemented tanks with similar parameters (largest and the oldest one is 20 gal tank, running since June 16, 2019 and that's the one I primarily presented at TPT). Couple of the plants in the last tank shown here are still under trial and I am not sure if they will survive long term in this environment. I did eventually post the pictures of other tanks in the comment section but unfortunately can't access them anymore. I also provided more details about algae in the comments which is also lost (yes I do get algae in my tanks but I have found that it is relatively easy to tackle them in my non-CO2 systems compared to an imbalanced pressurized CO2 injected tank, so yes I do have a high-tech tank). Although I briefly mentioned about importance of lower temperature (low 70F, 70-74F in my non-CO2 injected tanks but it is certainly possible to get good results at elevated temperatures of 80F or even slightly higher.

Yup same here! And that is why I have taken the open-minded approach and made the plunge to try it out myself to see if I can replicate the results to a satisfying extent in one of my tanks. For me personally, that's the final arbiter - and not what the nay-sayers and opponents, who demands all the hard evidence (without an inclination to try it out for themselves), is writing on an Internet forum.

If I can grow more challenging stem-plants in my tanks by making a few tweaks here and there and sort out the wheat from the chaff in terms of what actually makes a difference then I have made progress and that is the only thing that matters to me. I couldn't really care less what label we put on the approach, whether its new or old or whomever came up with the idea or how far behind its trailing... all that is just argumentative vanity in my opinion.

That's great and I wish success in your testing. My comment were not aimed as an attack to you but to the wider audience.

Well, what are we arguing then? That is what I sometimes wonder... In one breath we are asking for large scale evidence over time to prove the viability

That's it. That's all, specially with all those recipes being thrown around by a someone whose background is pretty much unknown to the public. He also commented (and then deleted it) in his last post that he didn't have time to make a journal.... I find that pretty insulting to anyone following his recipes. You shouldn't be giving people advise if you can't show what you are advising long term. There are literally thousands and thousands of tanks using the opposite regime, so why not with lean dosing on high tech with a diversity of plants in today's standards? Just asking questions.

EDIT: I realized I talked too fast. That part was not deleted. Yet it is always good to accompany ones word with action, else no much point. He claims he has carried out experiments but reality is I would like to see actual tank pictures through time. Not just some random zoomed picture of a plant. At the end of the day we are talking aquascaping here, not underground experimentation.

 

[MichaelJ]

even clive says using organic source of N or nh4no3 can cause algae

True. Here is one of Clives / @ceg4048 exchanges (with @Happi actually) on the topic of Ammoniacal sources of N vs. Algae.

Cheers,
Michael

 

[MichaelJ]

Beautiful plants I agree, yet far from what we are talking here. Here, I am attaching the description of those pictures. That's a low tech tank. Why would anyone dose EI or similar levels of ferts in a low tech with no CO2 injection? Aren't we implying high tech when we are referring to "lean dosing" ? Just saying.

I never did CO2 / high tech so I never expressed that I thought of this in the context of high tech from my personal perspective... I just want to grow nice and more challenging stem plants 🙂 ... but isn't it remarkable what is actually possible without CO2? Probably hard to achieve, but I am taking a shot at it.

That's great and I wish success in your testing.

Thanks @Hanuman. I will definitely keep everyone posted on this whichever way it goes. As soon as I get the plants in I will probably start a journal - they are currently floating around on the surface... they are pretty scrawny and mostly came without roots 🙂

My comment were not aimed as an attack to you but to the wider audience.

Sure and I never took it personally, just offering my perspective.

Cheers,
Michael

 

[Hanuman]

never did CO2 / high tech so I never expressed that I thought of this in the context of high tech from my personal perspective... I just want to grow nice and more challenging stem plants 🙂 ... but isn't it remarkable what is actually possible without CO2? Probably hard to achieve, but I am taking a shot at it.

Well if we are doing low-tech, it is pretty much obvious you need to go lean. Anyone with low tech does that.
A lot, in fact a majority of plants can be grown in low tech set ups, no problem. The form and coloration will simply be different, that's all. Some plants however can't. They require a minimum amount of CO2/light, but that's a minority I would say.

 

[Happi]

even clive says using organic source of N or nh4no3 can cause algae, so I'm not sure what you mean here. tropica contain urea or nh4no3 (or both) so overdosing can definitely cause algae and I don't think even clive would disagree.

Might want to read this one as well:

Worsening algae after starting EI dosing

I personally aim for 22 degree Celsius after my visit to Green Aqua, obviously if you have livestock that needs it higher or in middle of a heatwave then that's another story. It ultimately depends on the goal. 22 is fine. 25 is fine. 30 is fine. 20 is fine. But if the temp is set due to a...

www.ukaps.org

Post #43 might be most interesting, I believe that is what Zeus was referring to earlier.

 

[MichaelJ]

Anyone with low tech does that.

Not me 🙂 In one of my tanks I still dose quite a bit above what sane people would consider necessary for a low-tech tank, and I must say its been working out great for me. Currently 15 ppm of NO3, 4.6 ppm of PO4 and 20 ppm of K + targeting 1 ppm of Fe with EDTA and 0.25 ppm Fe with Fe Gluconate. The tank is in great shape; excellent plant health (mostly easy non-stem plants though), and zero algae to speak of (which means I can't see any...).... Well, my other, now lean tank that I have been slowly converting over the past few weeks is still without any sign of algae and the existing plants have coped with the conversion very well so far... now I am just waiting for those stem plants to get settled in and I will slowly start cranking up the light intensity... hopefully eventually reaching light levels normally associated with high-tech/CO2 tanks, like Sudipta have shown. Let's see how it goes for me!

Cheers,
Michael

 

[erwin123]

Not me 🙂 In one of my tanks I still dose quite a bit above what sane people would consider necessary for a low-tech tank, and I must say its been working out great for me. Currently 15 ppm of NO3, 4.6 ppm of PO4 and 20 ppm of K + targeting 1 ppm of Fe with EDTA and 0.25 ppm Fe with Fe Gluconate. The tank is in great shape; excellent plant health (mostly easy non-stem plants though), and zero algae to speak of (which means I can't see any...).... Well, my other, now lean tank that I have been slowly converting over the past few weeks is still without any sign of algae and the existing plants have coped with the conversion very well so far... now I am just waiting for those stem plants to get settled in and I will slowly start cranking up the light intensity... hopefully eventually reaching light levels normally associated with high-tech/CO2 tanks, like Sudipta have shown. Let's see how it goes for me!

Cheers,
Michael

I cant recall whether your low-tech tank has a lot of emersed growth, but the plants that are growing emersed in a "low tech tank" are likely the ones that are benefiting most from EI dosing.

I'm growing emersed plants out of my HOB filter on my low tech, and I have to trim a lot more plant mass from the emersed growth compared to those that are submerged (and we are talking about only emersed plants that fit in the width of a HOB filter vs submerged plants in the entire tank).

 

[Happi]

Could @Happi or someone provide the full reference for these Marschner ratios? I have gathered these are taken from plant tissue analysis in the third edition of Marschner's Mineral Nutrition of Higher Plants, but can I get the chapter and page? I would like to understand the context they are presented in and don't want to go on a wild goose chase.

I will try to find the pdf version for you and send it to you. Remind me if you don't hear anything back from me in a day or two. Might as well send you some other pdf files as well.

 

[MichaelJ]

I cant recall whether your low-tech tank has a lot of emersed growth, but the plants that are growing emersed in a "low tech tank" are likely the ones that are benefiting most from EI dosing.

I have a lot of floating plants yes... Frogbit, Pennyworth and duckweed) but mostly fully submerged plants - Various Anubias, lots of different Crypts, Buca, Swords and the like... I sort of lots track 🙂

Cheers,
Michael

 

[Hanuman]

I have a lot of floating plants yes... Frogbit, Pennyworth and duckweed)

Those are sucking all the excess nutrient from the water column since they have unlimited CO2 access.

 

[MichaelJ]

Those are sucking all the excess nutrient from the water column since they have unlimited CO2 access.

Judging from the fistfuls of Frogbit I am weeding out every other week or so I would say you are right 🙂

Here is a picture I took of one of my tanks a few months ago when skipping a week and some on maintenance due to travel - the whole surface was literally covered in Frogbit and duckweed:

Cheers,
Michael

 

[plantnoobdude]

Worsening algae after starting EI dosing

I personally aim for 22 degree Celsius after my visit to Green Aqua, obviously if you have livestock that needs it higher or in middle of a heatwave then that's another story. It ultimately depends on the goal. 22 is fine. 25 is fine. 30 is fine. 20 is fine. But if the temp is set due to a...

www.ukaps.org

Post #43 might be most interesting, I believe that is what Zeus was referring to earlier.

well then I must have been doing something wrong using 1ppm plus Fe weekly from EDTA and still having Iron deficiency using EI lol.

 

[Zeus.]

have Clive post those pics for me and I will point out the algae and stunted growth on several plants,

True. Here is one of Clives / @ceg4048 exchanges (with @Happi actually) on the topic of Ammoniacal sources of N vs. Algae.

Cheers,
Michael

Clive isn't always active , as his profession can have him AFK for periods at a time.
so I will repost his pics (hope that ok with you Clive (@ceg4048 ) 😉
Quote - Clives pics
100ppm NO3, 5ppm PO4, 120ppm K, 5ppm Fe dosed weekly for 4 years. Not one trace of algae. No damage whatsoever:

Unquote

Looks great to me

 

[Hanuman]

Clive isn't always active , as his profession can have him AFK for periods at a time.
so I will repost his pics (hope that ok with you Clive (@ceg4048 ) 😉
Quote - Clives pics
100ppm NO3, 5ppm PO4, 120ppm K, 5ppm Fe dosed weekly for 4 years. Not one trace of algae. No damage whatsoever:

Unquote

Looks great to me

I see some algae here:

and hole in leaf here, sign of deadly toxicity.

Unfortunately couldn't zoom any further.
@ceg4048 That's unacceptable.
[end of joke]

 

[plantnoobdude]

Clive isn't always active , as his profession can have him AFK for periods at a time.
so I will repost his pics (hope that ok with you Clive (@ceg4048 ) 😉
Quote - Clives pics
100ppm NO3, 5ppm PO4, 120ppm K, 5ppm Fe dosed weekly for 4 years. Not one trace of algae. No damage whatsoever:

Unquote

Looks great to me

these pictures do not deny the fact that over dosing tropica specialised can cause algae. he used no3 for these experiments.

stunted stem next to a clean stem, I have seen this quite a lot with EI.

wavy leaves and what looks like holes (could be livestock damage)

stunted glandulosa.
you will notice plants growing well are easy to grow ones. limnophila hippuridoides and such.
if these were more difficult plants, rotala. ammannia. they would be stunted even more, maybe even refusing to grow. this has been shown in other threads with clives pics himself. now say this is a co2 issue because of high temps like clive has claimed, why would you try to 'falsify' that high nutrients don't cause issues, with obvious issues in the photos? this makes no sense to me.
here are his rotala and ammannia

 

[erwin123]

Stunning tank using EI (albeit, APT EI). Check.

If you follow Dennis' instagram, he uses APT EI for his farm tank, and APT Complete for his aquascape tank.
Both tanks look great. Is it the fertilisation he uses? Or just his technique in optimising CO2/flow, and maintaining tank cleanliness?

 

[Hanuman]

Is it the fertilisation he uses? Or just his technique in optimising CO2/flow, and maintaining tank cleanliness?

It's a combination of all those thing and time. If you know how he takes care of his plants you would understand. He is borderline OC with them when, cutting, trimming, planting them. He can roll small osmocote balls in the roots of each plant before planting them. Not sure everyone does that.

 

[MichaelJ]

I see some algae here:
View attachment 185984
and hole in leaf here, sign of deadly toxicity.
View attachment 185985
Unfortunately couldn't zoom any further.
@ceg4048 That's unacceptable.
[end of joke]

Looks like a classic CO2 flow/distribution issue to me

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

Here is what Clive said right above the picture...Here are the results an experiment where I deliberately restricted PO4. Then after a while, added PO4. Can you see the difference?

Because PO4--- is highly mobile within the plant it can be shuffled to any tissue that is phosphorus (P) deficient, once it stops being Liebig's limiting nutrient. It can also be "stored" in the plant for a "rainy day".

This is one reason why deficiencies of plant mobile nutrients are difficult to diagnose. It is much easier with a non-mobile element (like iron (Fe)) because you always have the permanently damaged leaves as the "smoking gun" of earlier issues.

cheers Darrel

 

[Simon Cole]

Alright, some of those posts went way over my head but I’m still new so don’t expect understand some of the more in depth stuff.

This was written by our member Riverside Scaper in post #38 on page 2. We are now on post #1,004 and page 51!
Debate on this subject is dangerously close to reaching War and Peace levels of interest.

G. C. Gerlof-j and P. H. Krombhok were talking about exactly the same issues in their paper Tissue analysis as a measure of nutrient availability for the growth of angiosperm aquatic plants in 1966.
Perhaps if a member want to run experiments and provide a simple paper then this forum would be a great place to post the results. This thread might not be very user-friendly because every possible scenario and aspect of science has been discussed, often simultaneously. Debates benefit from being structured, and if people don't agree at the end then perhaps give it some time and come back with new evidence.