MichaelJ
Member
True. Here is one of Clives / @ceg4048 exchanges (with @Happi actually) on the topic of Ammoniacal sources of N vs. Algae.
Cheers,
Michael
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Lean dosing pros and cons
- Thread starter Riverside Scaper
- Start date
Cheers,
Michael
MichaelJ
Member
I never did CO2 / high tech so I never expressed that I thought of this in the context of high tech from my personal perspective... I just want to grow nice and more challenging stem plants 🙂 ... but isn't it remarkable what is actually possible without CO2? Probably hard to achieve, but I am taking a shot at it.
Thanks @Hanuman. I will definitely keep everyone posted on this whichever way it goes. As soon as I get the plants in I will probably start a journal - they are currently floating around on the surface... they are pretty scrawny and mostly came without roots 🙂
Sure and I never took it personally, just offering my perspective.
Cheers,
Michael
Well if we are doing low-tech, it is pretty much obvious you need to go lean. Anyone with low tech does that.
A lot, in fact a majority of plants can be grown in low tech set ups, no problem. The form and coloration will simply be different, that's all. Some plants however can't. They require a minimum amount of CO2/light, but that's a minority I would say.
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Might want to read this one as well:
Worsening algae after starting EI dosing
I personally aim for 22 degree Celsius after my visit to Green Aqua, obviously if you have livestock that needs it higher or in middle of a heatwave then that's another story. It ultimately depends on the goal. 22 is fine. 25 is fine. 30 is fine. 20 is fine. But if the temp is set due to a...
www.ukaps.org
Post #43 might be most interesting, I believe that is what Zeus was referring to earlier.
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MichaelJ
Member
Not me 🙂 In one of my tanks I still dose quite a bit above what sane people would consider necessary for a low-tech tank, and I must say its been working out great for me. Currently 15 ppm of NO3, 4.6 ppm of PO4 and 20 ppm of K + targeting 1 ppm of Fe with EDTA and 0.25 ppm Fe with Fe Gluconate. The tank is in great shape; excellent plant health (mostly easy non-stem plants though), and zero algae to speak of (which means I can't see any...).... Well, my other, now lean tank that I have been slowly converting over the past few weeks is still without any sign of algae and the existing plants have coped with the conversion very well so far... now I am just waiting for those stem plants to get settled in and I will slowly start cranking up the light intensity... hopefully eventually reaching light levels normally associated with high-tech/CO2 tanks, like Sudipta have shown. Let's see how it goes for me!
Cheers,
Michael
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I cant recall whether your low-tech tank has a lot of emersed growth, but the plants that are growing emersed in a "low tech tank" are likely the ones that are benefiting most from EI dosing.
I'm growing emersed plants out of my HOB filter on my low tech, and I have to trim a lot more plant mass from the emersed growth compared to those that are submerged (and we are talking about only emersed plants that fit in the width of a HOB filter vs submerged plants in the entire tank).
I will try to find the pdf version for you and send it to you. Remind me if you don't hear anything back from me in a day or two. Might as well send you some other pdf files as well.
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MichaelJ
Member
I have a lot of floating plants yes... Frogbit, Pennyworth and duckweed) but mostly fully submerged plants - Various Anubias, lots of different Crypts, Buca, Swords and the like... I sort of lots track 🙂
Cheers,
Michael
Those are sucking all the excess nutrient from the water column since they have unlimited CO2 access.
MichaelJ
Member
Judging from the fistfuls of Frogbit I am weeding out every other week or so I would say you are right 🙂
Here is a picture I took of one of my tanks a few months ago when skipping a week and some on maintenance due to travel - the whole surface was literally covered in Frogbit and duckweed:
Cheers,
Michael
plantnoobdude
Member
well then I must have been doing something wrong using 1ppm plus Fe weekly from EDTA and still having Iron deficiency using EI lol.Worsening algae after starting EI dosing
I personally aim for 22 degree Celsius after my visit to Green Aqua, obviously if you have livestock that needs it higher or in middle of a heatwave then that's another story. It ultimately depends on the goal. 22 is fine. 25 is fine. 30 is fine. 20 is fine. But if the temp is set due to a...
Post #43 might be most interesting, I believe that is what Zeus was referring to earlier.
Clive isn't always active , as his profession can have him AFK for periods at a time.
so I will repost his pics (hope that ok with you Clive (@ceg4048 ) 😉
Quote - Clives pics
100ppm NO3, 5ppm PO4, 120ppm K, 5ppm Fe dosed weekly for 4 years. Not one trace of algae. No damage whatsoever:
Unquote
Looks great to me
I see some algae here:Clive isn't always active , as his profession can have him AFK for periods at a time.
so I will repost his pics (hope that ok with you Clive (@ceg4048 ) 😉
Quote - Clives pics
100ppm NO3, 5ppm PO4, 120ppm K, 5ppm Fe dosed weekly for 4 years. Not one trace of algae. No damage whatsoever:
Unquote
Looks great to me
and hole in leaf here, sign of deadly toxicity.
Unfortunately couldn't zoom any further.
@ceg4048 That's unacceptable.
[end of joke]
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plantnoobdude
Member
these pictures do not deny the fact that over dosing tropica specialised can cause algae. he used no3 for these experiments.Clive isn't always active , as his profession can have him AFK for periods at a time.
so I will repost his pics (hope that ok with you Clive (@ceg4048 ) 😉
Quote - Clives pics
100ppm NO3, 5ppm PO4, 120ppm K, 5ppm Fe dosed weekly for 4 years. Not one trace of algae. No damage whatsoever:
Unquote
Looks great to me
stunted stem next to a clean stem, I have seen this quite a lot with EI.
wavy leaves and what looks like holes (could be livestock damage)
stunted glandulosa.
you will notice plants growing well are easy to grow ones. limnophila hippuridoides and such.
if these were more difficult plants, rotala. ammannia. they would be stunted even more, maybe even refusing to grow. this has been shown in other threads with clives pics himself. now say this is a co2 issue because of high temps like clive has claimed, why would you try to 'falsify' that high nutrients don't cause issues, with obvious issues in the photos? this makes no sense to me.
here are his rotala and ammannia
Stunning tank using EI (albeit, APT EI). Check.
If you follow Dennis' instagram, he uses APT EI for his farm tank, and APT Complete for his aquascape tank.
Both tanks look great. Is it the fertilisation he uses? Or just his technique in optimising CO2/flow, and maintaining tank cleanliness?
It's a combination of all those thing and time. If you know how he takes care of his plants you would understand. He is borderline OC with them when, cutting, trimming, planting them. He can roll small osmocote balls in the roots of each plant before planting them. Not sure everyone does that.
MichaelJ
Member
Hi all,
This is one reason why deficiencies of plant mobile nutrients are difficult to diagnose. It is much easier with a non-mobile element (like iron (Fe)) because you always have the permanently damaged leaves as the "smoking gun" of earlier issues.
cheers Darrel
Because PO4--- is highly mobile within the plant it can be shuffled to any tissue that is phosphorus (P) deficient, once it stops being Liebig's limiting nutrient. It can also be "stored" in the plant for a "rainy day".
This is one reason why deficiencies of plant mobile nutrients are difficult to diagnose. It is much easier with a non-mobile element (like iron (Fe)) because you always have the permanently damaged leaves as the "smoking gun" of earlier issues.
cheers Darrel
Simon Cole
Member
This was written by our member Riverside Scaper in post #38 on page 2. We are now on post #1,004 and page 51!
Debate on this subject is dangerously close to reaching War and Peace levels of interest.
G. C. Gerlof-j and P. H. Krombhok were talking about exactly the same issues in their paper Tissue analysis as a measure of nutrient availability for the growth of angiosperm aquatic plants in 1966.
Perhaps if a member want to run experiments and provide a simple paper then this forum would be a great place to post the results. This thread might not be very user-friendly because every possible scenario and aspect of science has been discussed, often simultaneously. Debates benefit from being structured, and if people don't agree at the end then perhaps give it some time and come back with new evidence.
MichaelJ
Member
Hi @Simon Cole I think we will eventually surpass Tolstoy's epic.
A couple of us are doing that actually.
You are terribly right about that - it's a complete hodgepodge of overlapping and orthogonal discussions. I suggested early on that we set up a topic like "Alternative fertilizer methods" where we could discuss this and people who were inclined to suspend disbelief a bit could just nerd out on the topic instead of having the tedious X vs. Y discussion.
Cheers,
Michael
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