Lean dosing pros and cons

[GreggZ]

I would suggest that you feed your plants in the same way that you feed your fish, <"when they need it">.

If your fish are pretty obese and mainly disinterested when you are feeding them? and even the addition of live black worms can't raise them to more than a brief, desultory chase? You feed them less, or you feed them an alternative food source, and it is <"exactly the same with the plants">.

cheers Darrel

I'm not sure this is the case with plants in a high tech heavily planted tank. Over many years I have found that my plants prefer to have more than their daily uptake available in the water column. If a tank like mine uptakes 2 ppm NO3 per day my plants would wither away and die if there were only 2 ppm NO3 measurable in the water column daily. In fact for me if it gets below about 15 ppm some plants start complaining. But again that is based on my personal experience and conversations with many successful people in the hobby.

 

[John q]

And here lies the question.

Do we give the plants what they need. Or what they want. 😉 lean dosing pros and cons...

 

[MichaelJ]

In fact for me if it gets below about 15 ppm some plants start complaining.

I assume that 15 ppm would be your dosing target per week? If you dose 15 ppm of NO3 (say from KNO3) your getting 3.39 ppm of N which is in fact very close, but less than(!), the 3.88 ppm you would get from say Tropica Specialized when following Tropica's lean'ish recommendation of 6 ml/wk per 50 L. The difference is that you get the N from Urea/NH4 which is supposedly preferred by the plants over NO3 (probably because thats what Mother Nature intended... although we can get great results either way in our planted aquariums... how we deliver the Nitrogen is just one among many, many other factors).

Cheers,
Michael

 

[MichaelJ]

Do we give the plants what they need. Or what they want.😉 lean dosing pros and cons...

Good question. Maybe we should call it conscientious dosing; we give the plants what they need in appropriate amounts, served up in the way they want it.

Cheers,
Michael

 

[John q]

Maybe we should call it conscientious dosing; we give the plants what they need in appropriate amounts,

The plants don't really need that much, I've always believed that. Marcel, Happi and even Barr agree to some extent

served up in the way they want it.

That's where I get confused. Do plants benefit from more availability. I suspect the answer is yes, otherwise they wouldn't be programed for luxury uptake. Unless they feast in lean conditions 😏

 

[Happi]

Thats the one I am curious about when following the lean-regime. Other than monitoring the plants (which should always be the main indicator). When using Urea/NH4 only, can we use our NH4 test kits to reliably gauge the NH4 uptake?

Also, with the preference for NH4 over NO3, assuming your only dosing one or the other (not both), does this also mean that 1 ppm of N from Urea/NH4 gets consumed faster by the plants than 1 ppm of N from NO3 ?

Cheers,
Michael

The NH4 uptake is quite rapidly, NH4 uptake can be gauged by the test kit far as NH4 from NH4NO3, NH4Cl, NH4SO4 goes. but it will be hard to gauge it from Urea, because not all of the urea is converted into NH4 immediately. Using NH4 over Urea will give you better picture if you want to gauge the uptake. but, even with that, it’s not going to be an easy task. Because, the more NH4 you add, faster the plant growth, some stems growing few inches in just one day, if you were to add 0.25, 0.5 or 1 ppm daily in different tanks, you might learn that its not going to give you the exact uptake number but it will give you some ideas about how much might be sufficient for daily uptake without overdosing or under dosing it. At 1 ppm, the results would be very fast plant growth and some NH4 showing up on the test kit by end of the day if you were to gauge it, where it will eventually turn into NO3. Now would you say the daily uptake is 0.6 N if you were to gauge 0.4 N by the end of the day? Not exactly but it will give you some ideas that the uptake is not more than 0.6 N daily even at very fast growth, if you cut this into 0.3 N daily, you will learn that the plant are still growing well but not as fast they did at 0.6 N but there is no N deficiency even at 0.3 N

0.2 N vs 0.4 N, both will fill the needed N for the day, the only difference you will see is that there is slight increase in plant yield with 0.4 N, but plant are not going to become N deficient even at 0.2 N, if they did then you can increase the dose to 0.3 N, but no need to 0.4 N.

We also need to consider the uptake of NH4 by the bacteria.

Regarding Urea vs NH4 vs NO3 at 1 ppm N, plant will always grow fastest in NH4 and Urea, you will observe that plant grown under 1 ppm N-NH4 will be 2-3x taller vs plant grown under same 1 ppm N-NO3.

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

Over many years I have found that my plants prefer to have more than their daily uptake available in the water column. If a tank like mine uptakes 2 ppm NO3 per day my plants would wither away and die if there were only 2 ppm NO3 measurable in the water column daily.

Point taken.

I only grow easy plants, and even then I don't grow them very well. My tanks are all low tech, all my plants are slow growing, all my tanks are jungles and I don't do aesthetics. I'll never have the all singing and all dancing tanks that many members create. I've reached my peak, but it is a <"pretty low altitude one">.

cheers Darrel

 

[MichaelJ]

all my tanks are jungles and I don't do aesthetics.

My tanks are jungles as well and I think carries a lot of natural aesthetic 🙂 ... the most beautiful tanks to my eyes are the ones that looks like that little slice of messy nature.

(I recently gave one of my tanks a haircut to make room for more challenging stem plants for my lean experiment - arriving today! Yay!)

Cheers,
Michael

 

[Happi]

@MichaelJ @John q​

even if we were to dose 15 ppm equivalent NO3 with Tropica, the results are still going to be far more superior with less overall Nutrients buildup and requiring less water changes.

N 3.88406
P 0.28986
Mg 1.13043
K 2.98551
S 2.63768
Fe 0.20000
Mn 0.11304
B 0.01159
Cu 0.01739
Mo 0.00580
Zn 0.00580
Cl 1.44928

 

[John q]

all my tanks are jungles

My tanks are jungles

My tank is also a jungle..

In nature these are threatening environments for soft finicky touchy plants, and guessing they probably won't survive. Perhaps @dw1305 & @MichaelJ we have created a haven of sorts, but only for the purists. 🥸

 

[GreggZ]

I assume that 15 ppm would be your dosing target per week? If you dose 15 ppm of NO3 (say from KNO3) your getting 3.39 ppm of N which is in fact very close, but less than(!), the 3.88 ppm you would get from say Tropica Specialized when following Tropica's lean'ish recommendation of 6 ml/wk per 50 L. The difference is that you get the N from Urea/NH4 which is supposedly preferred by the plants over NO3 (probably because thats what Mother Nature intended... although we can get great results either way in our planted aquariums... how we deliver the Nitrogen is just one among many, many other factors).

Cheers,
Michael

I actually prefer to keep about 20 to 25 ppm NO3 in the water column. Has been the sweet spot for me for a long time but that is in relation to the types of plants that I grow.

I have no experience with Tropica but then again I don't know any successful people using it with a high tech tank full of stems. And sure they might be out there but I just don't know them.

@MichaelJ @John q​

even if we were to dose 15 ppm equivalent NO3 with Tropica, the results are still going to be far more superior with less overall Nutrients buildup and requiring less water changes.

I'm curious how do you make such a broad claim? Do you have any evidence of this on a broad scale?

And I'm not trying to be argumentative but I've seen claims like this for years but I don't know anyone using this method with success. Do you know people who are having far superior results? I'd like to see their tanks and talk to them.

 

[MichaelJ]

I have no experience with Tropica but then again I don't know any successful people using it with a high tech tank full of stems.

Tropica - you know, the plant guys out of Denmark I believe - are pretty prolific growers of aquatic plants 🙂 ... I would think they would know a thing or two about how to make a fertilizer that actually works very well. Call me naive for thinking so

And sure they might be out there but I just don't know them.

Fair enough.

Do you have any evidence of this on a broad scale?

Tropica ?

Anyways, @GreggZ, I am convinced @Happi and his cohorts are on to something, and have provided enough convincing evidence over time to make it intriguing enough for me to try out and replicate the methodology... and keep in mind I used to be quite skeptical and even arguing quite a bit with @Happi over time and raising a lot of the same questions as you are..., but I also tried to remain curious and open minded. I can't speak for @Happi obviously, but I think he is trying to move the hobby forward and explore new ways to achieve great results, something we should cherish.

If @Happi's approach doesn't work for me I assume its because I just didn't have the conditions quite right, and perhaps there is more too it that is less than well understood - if it works, I am going to apply the same strategy for my other tank - if that works as well... well, then I am going to get really annoying on this forum ... Joking aside; at the end of the day I only care about the results. I am not entrenched in any particular approach. EI worked for me for a long time (zero algae, slow (non-CO2) but healthy growth and all that jazz)... if something new can work just as well or better, and simplify things and open up for more challenging stem plants under higher light that I have failed with in the past, I will be one very, very happy camper.

Cheers,
Michael

 

[GreggZ]

Tropica - you know, the plant guys out of Denmark I believe - are pretty prolific growers of aquatic plants 🙂 ... I would think they would know a thing or two about how to make a fertilizer that actually works very well. Call me naive for thinking so

Fair enough.


Tropica ?

Anyways, @GreggZ, I am convinced @Happi and his cohorts are on to something, and have provided enough convincing evidence over time to make it intriguing enough for me to try out and replicate the methodology... and keep in mind I used to be quite skeptical (and even arguing quite a bit with @Happi over time and raising a lot of the same questions as you are...), but I also tried to remain curious and open minded. I can't speak for @Happi obviously, but I think he is trying to move the hobby forward and explore new ways to achieve great results, something we should cherish.

If @Happi's approach doesn't work for me I assume its because I just didn't have the conditions quite right, and perhaps there is more too it that is less than well understood - if it works, I am going to apply the same strategy for my other tank - if that works as well... well, then I am going to get really annoying on this forum ... at the end of the day I only care about the results. I am not entrenched in any particular approach. EI worked for me for a long time (zero algae, slow (non-CO2) but healthy growth and all that jazz)... if something new can work just as well or better, and simplify things and open up for more challenging stem plants under higher light that I have failed with in the past, I will be a very, very happy camper.

Cheers,
Michael

Michael I am with you. I also am open to new methods. My own methods have changed many times over the years.

I've known Happi and his cohorts for a very long time as well and there is a long history there. I'm not necessarily arguing against these methods, I just don't know anyone using them successfully over the long term. On the other hand I know dozens and dozens of people who constantly demonstrate success using other methods that are very repeatable.

Good luck with the experiment and I am really looking forward to seeing your results.

 

[plantnoobdude]

very well said michael!
on top of the inspiration page of tropica they have a youtube channel!

https://www.youtube.com/c/TropicaAquariumPlants/videos

Tropica - you know, the plant guys out of Denmark I believe - are pretty prolific growers of aquatic plants 🙂 ... I would think they would know a thing or two about how to make a fertilizer that actually works very well. Call me naive for thinking so

definitely.

well, then I am going to get really annoying on this forum

join the club hehe.

EI worked for me for a long time (zero algae, slow (non-CO2) but healthy growth and all that jazz)

that really is the thing, if you're happy with easy plants, low metabolism tanks then EI will run your tank with very little flaws. once you put your foot on the gas issues arrise, that's how happi came up with his method. if you check out his old posts on tpt or even here I think, you will see he used EI. but the issues he got lead him to alternative methods.

but I think he is trying to move the hobby forward and explore new ways to achieve great results, something we should cherish.

again, very well said. couldn't agree more!

 

[Wookii]

Tropica ?

Interestingly though, not all those tanks used Tropica ferts, and of those that did - particularly those growing stem plants - were using far in excess of the standard Tropica dose.

 

[GreggZ]

Interestingly though, not all those tanks used Tropica ferts, and of those that did - particularly those growing stem plants - were using far in excess of the standard Tropica dose.

Yep the first tank that caught my eye was a Dutch scape full of very nice stems. I looked it up in more detail and he was dosing 3 x the recommended dose of Tropica Specialized. The N dosing was 4.47 which is about the same as dosing 20 ppm NO3 and the PO4 dosing was about 3 ppm. Is that "lean" dosing at that point? If so it's more NO3 than I dose......maybe I am lean too and don't even know it!!😀

 

[MichaelJ]

Interestingly though, not all those tanks used Tropica ferts, and of those that did

Thats true, but a lot did, and thats also the point: lots of different approaches will work.

- particularly those growing stem plants - were using far in excess of the standard Tropica dose.

Yes - this one in particular stood out for me - almost 5 times the recommened amount of Specialized and a lot of traces (Premium) weekly, but also very high CO2 levels and plant mass - which of course should be taken into consideration when dosing lean'ish.

Cheers,
Michael

 

[MichaelJ]

Is that "lean" dosing at that point? If so it's more NO3 than I dose......maybe I am lean too and don't even know it!!😀

Well, maybe you are... 🙂 with the exception of N and possibly P its still somewhat lean, but I get your point. We might need to tweak the terminology a little bit! 😉

 

[Happi]

Dosing high doses of tropica is still no where near EI levels in term of ratio and the type of N being used. Comparing NO3 with NH4 is not the same and the results are not same either. If you were to add 3 N vs 6 N from tropica, the results will still be good due to the way it works. The doses should be based on plant mass while maintaining lean approach, if the plant mass is high, adding 6 N from tropica will still be considered Lean if the uptake of those plants were close to 1 ppm N daily. Tropica is not dosing 6 ppm N in single doses, if 1 ppm N is used daily and fully uptaken by plants, you are starting your next day from 0 again.

I think people are looking at the total over all doses which ofcource wouldn't look lean but no one is considering that these are dosed frequently rather than once. The water still remain low in nutrients with tropica approach.

 

[erwin123]

On the other hand I know dozens and dozens of people who constantly demonstrate success using other methods that are very repeatable.

As a hobbyist, simplicity, convenience and repeatable methods are really important to me.

I am very interested in these experiments where someone with no prior vested interest experiments with different methods and is willing to post regular photos updates so that we can see how the plants respond to the new dosing method.

My feeling, having moved from a richer dosing regime to a leaner regime (simply by adjusting the amount of magic water I add to my tank every day), is that many plants won't care and can adapt to either (as long as you gradually adjust and not simply double or halve your dosing overnight), but there will always be some plants that seem to prefer one over the other.