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Lean dosing pros and cons
- Thread starter Riverside Scaper
- Start date
dosing once a week has nothing to do with lean approach, you can dose lean or high once a week if you choose to. 5-10 ppm NO3 is already heading toward the lean direction weather you dose it once a week or cut it into 3x week.
John q
Member
Thanks Gregg, I try and be honest describing what I see, my interpretation of cause and effect may well be flawed but that's where you guys step in and offer some words of wisdom.
Haha yes I understand that analogy, up in the North of England we have a saying "You can't polish a turd."
This is why I love having more experienced people on hand to keep us on the straight and narrow. You are correct I am using APFT, for some strange reason I assumed that this was the same as Csm+b.
Everyday is a school day. 😃
I appreciate all the help Happi especially when I often deviate from your prescribed advice. I suppose I could be viewed as a work in progress, some of the things you say are sinking in, some things might take a little longer.
Bear with me on this one, and feel free to reject my train of thought 😁.
In January I had some Ludwigia which for me was doing well. Here it is.
Looking back: No3 11ppm, po4 3.5ppm
I moved this to the back of the tank which had reduced lighting and crappy flow. It stunted and lost its red colour and turned green, initially under same ferts level and didn't seem to do any better under various dosing regimes I was trying at the time. Probable cause, poor Co2 and reduced lighting?
End Feb removed from back and replanted in similar position to when it looked ok, more light, good flow and Co2 misting. Nutrient levels from 1st of March were this: No3 7ppm, Po4 2.27 ppm.
Here it is on 7th March. You can see the new growth (red leaves) old growth below.
Picture taken today: 16th March
Colouration probably worse, certainly hasn't been much growth in the last 9 days.
So hope everybody's not fallen asleep...
This plant was doing better under higher No3 and Po4, the sensible approach here would be to return to that dosing level, sit back and have a cold beer. But.... "we don't wanna do that!"
Sorry for the convoluted answer to your question Happi, I'm choosing NPK levels that are in between it doing well and current levels. New npk will be:
No3 9ppm
Po4 3ppm
K 6.9ppm
Ta.
MichaelJ
Member
Hi @Happi,
So my lean-experiment tank is currently:
KH ~1 from K2CO3
GH ~4.75 (Ca 24 ppm / Mg 6 ppm) Ca Gluconate, CaSO4 and a tiny bit of CaCl2 (for the trace amount of Cl). Mg from Mg Gluconate and Mg(NO3)2).
pH is in the 6.2-6.5 range
Temperature 75 F / 24 C (very stable all year around)
Photoperiod +12 hours at low light intensity (my tanks are in a room with very low levels of ambient or daylight exposure)
Non-injected
NO3 15 from Mg(NO3)2
PO4 4.6 from KH2PO4
K 18.0 from K2CO3 and KH2PO4
So for NPK this is my plan (starting with the next WC this weekend):
Week 1-2
NO3 10 from
PO4 3 from
K 13.0 from
Week 3-4
NO3 7 ppm
PO4 3 ppm
K 9 ppm
Week 5 ....
NO3 5 ppm
PO4 3 ppm
K 7 ppm
In addition:
Dial down the Ca contents to 18 ppm but keeping the 6 ppm of Mg. (GH ~4.0)
Dial down the temperature to ~23 C. (~73F)
I am not sure yet about micro dosing. I am thinking about slowly dialing down the Fe target to 0.25 ppm EDTA weekly (Nilocg Plantex CSM+B).
Of course the big one is the light intensity. I will very gradually start increasing that perhaps on week 2 and closely monitor the situation.
Thoughts?
Cheers,
Michael
So my lean-experiment tank is currently:
KH ~1 from K2CO3
GH ~4.75 (Ca 24 ppm / Mg 6 ppm) Ca Gluconate, CaSO4 and a tiny bit of CaCl2 (for the trace amount of Cl). Mg from Mg Gluconate and Mg(NO3)2).
pH is in the 6.2-6.5 range
Temperature 75 F / 24 C (very stable all year around)
Photoperiod +12 hours at low light intensity (my tanks are in a room with very low levels of ambient or daylight exposure)
Non-injected
NO3 15 from Mg(NO3)2
PO4 4.6 from KH2PO4
K 18.0 from K2CO3 and KH2PO4
So for NPK this is my plan (starting with the next WC this weekend):
Week 1-2
NO3 10 from
PO4 3 from
K 13.0 from
Week 3-4
NO3 7 ppm
PO4 3 ppm
K 9 ppm
Week 5 ....
NO3 5 ppm
PO4 3 ppm
K 7 ppm
In addition:
Dial down the Ca contents to 18 ppm but keeping the 6 ppm of Mg. (GH ~4.0)
Dial down the temperature to ~23 C. (~73F)
I am not sure yet about micro dosing. I am thinking about slowly dialing down the Fe target to 0.25 ppm EDTA weekly (Nilocg Plantex CSM+B).
Of course the big one is the light intensity. I will very gradually start increasing that perhaps on week 2 and closely monitor the situation.
Thoughts?
Cheers,
Michael
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Hello, i dose ammonia and urea nitrogen since few weeks, there is two big difference the first one, the plant are way greener, the second which i don't know if it's good, is that there kind of new growth between the leaves (sorry i'm french i don't know the exact name) picture will tell for me, almost all my plant have that, is that a good sign ? thx
plantnoobdude
Member
I believe @dw1305 had the same experience using miracle grow which contains ammoniacal N. plants are able to use urea/nh4 very effectively which is why you are seeing good green colour.
usually that means that the growth of the apical bud has stunted or slowed for some reason. this means the shoot stops producing auxins (IAA) which will 'wake up' the dormant apical buds. I have noticed this when there is a change in fertiliser, a large water change or when the plant reaches the top of the tank and can't grow any more.
Difference Between Apical Bud and Axillary Bud - Pediaa.Com
The main difference between apical bud and axillary bud is that apical bud is the dominant embryonic shoot located in the apex whereas axillary bud is an embryonic shoot located in the axil of the leaf, which is dormant.
pediaa.com
hope this helps, cheers.
Hi Eminor you mentioned elsewhere that this is one of the Rotalas that is supposed to turn red, in which case, the one on the left which is yellowish-orange is considered more 'desirable' than the very green one of the right. Hope to see your latest photos in your journal - you haven't posted for a long time!
@MichaelJ
let me know what you think about this Article. Marcel Shared this with me few years ago and I am still not fully convinced about the Ca:Mg:K ratio of 2-3:1:0.5 however I do agree with their Fe:Mn ratio of 2:1 and many other things which also match with whatever we have talked about in the beginning of this thread. the google doesn't do such a great job translating German to English. if we find any information in these articles that can be used to improve the lean dosing we should apply it.
let me know what you think about this Article. Marcel Shared this with me few years ago and I am still not fully convinced about the Ca:Mg:K ratio of 2-3:1:0.5 however I do agree with their Fe:Mn ratio of 2:1 and many other things which also match with whatever we have talked about in the beginning of this thread. the google doesn't do such a great job translating German to English. if we find any information in these articles that can be used to improve the lean dosing we should apply it.
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Hi all,
These are @'s <"floaters">. I don't know what fertiliser regime they are using, but it is obviously working. I would guess that in this case you wouldn't see the <"same change of colour">, just because the plants are pretty pumped already.
cheers Darrel
For me it <"produced a fairly instant greening">, but my plants <"would always be nitrogen deficient">, so it would be more obvious for me than for some-one who used greater levels of dosing.
These are @'s <"floaters">. I don't know what fertiliser regime they are using, but it is obviously working. I would guess that in this case you wouldn't see the <"same change of colour">, just because the plants are pretty pumped already.
cheers Darrel
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Hi all,
I'm just after <"some growth">, so personally I'm always going to use <"plant leaf colour and general health"> as an indication of nutrient level.
In terms of nutrient addition I'm just going to <"use a fertiliser"> that supplies all <"fourteen essential plant nutrients"> but I'm not going to worry too much about <"amounts or ratios">.
cheers Darrel
I think it depends a little bit on whether you are after optimal growth or <"acceptable growth">.
I'm just after <"some growth">, so personally I'm always going to use <"plant leaf colour and general health"> as an indication of nutrient level.
In terms of nutrient addition I'm just going to <"use a fertiliser"> that supplies all <"fourteen essential plant nutrients"> but I'm not going to worry too much about <"amounts or ratios">.
cheers Darrel
Gorillastomp
Member
My experience with this plant, color is more related to lighting intensity than anything else. In my tank i could make it grow green when i was lowering the intensity under a certain %. When i ramp up the intensity again it became red to almost purpleish at some extend. Fertilizer was the same in both case.
Agree that Ludwigia Super Red's colour is unlikely to be affected by water column dosing. I had them in my tank when I was dosing 12 ppm NO3 and still have some now with 5.8ppm NO3
I have a couple of leftover stems in the rear corner of my tank, but I removed them because they had a tendency to become a tangled mess if I didn't trim regularly (unlike Rotala Blood Red which generally grows vertically and doesn't get tangled when overgrown).
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John q
Member
Hey I'm in total agreement that the nutrient levels aren't affecting the colouration of this plant. Infact you can clearly see in the pictures the redness returns once moved to a brighter position.
It's the lack of growth that I'm questioning could be related.
Thankfully this is an easy experiment, I dose a bit more as outlined above and see what happens. As always I'll report back with honest pictures, good or bad.
plantnoobdude
Member
you mean premium? the micro only one. anyway, I had very good results using tropica fertiliser. can definitely recommend.
MichaelJ
Member
Hi @plantnoobdude, No I was actually thinking about Specialized and pick up the extra N (from Urea/NH4 ?), P and K and just lower the Macros (NPK) a bit that I mix in with the WC water. As far as I know the micros/traces content is the same between the two (Specialized vs. Premium). A bad thing about Tropica is that it is harder to come by here in the US and quite expensive, but for the experiment and to get me started I am OK with using Tropica for a while - at least until I amass the necessary motivation to buy all the ingredients to roll my own clone from @Happi's recipe.
I've used Specialized and Premium on and off in the past btw. It was very expensive to use with my two 150 L tanks at much higher than recommended dosing targets (mostly due to my misconceptions at the time, I figure).
Cheers,
Michael
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