Lean dosing pros and cons

[John q]

Anyway, lets get back to talking about lean dosing.

With that in mind.

Another quick question for @Happi if you don't mind or anybody else that wants to chime in.

Planning on tweaking my micro dosing mix (again) appreciate you probably would advise against this mix as its not exactly lean but would appreciate any feedback you have.
For the last 2 weeks or so I've been dosing this without any major issues.

Element	ppm/degree
Fe	0.25 + 0.09dtpa
Mn	0.055
Zn	0.035
B	0.032
Mo	0.005
Cu	0.007

The new mix will use a bit less Fe via csm+b, a tad more Fe from dtpa and extra Mn.

Element	ppm/degree
Fe	0.2 + 0.1 dtpa
Mn	0.132
Zn	0.028
B	0.026
Mo	0.004
Cu	0.006

Are there any other trace ratios that are majorly out of whack here?

Muchas Gracias.

 

[KirstyF]

@KirstyF​

sorry I didn't get a chance to respond to some of your question about lean approach. but you do not need to go DIY to get there, but DIY gives you better overall control. now look at what we have discussed so far in this thread, we talked about the nutrients levels in the water in nature where most plant are originated from, we looked at Ratio, type of nutrients present in those water. we combined data from nature and those who have done real experiment, we combined what I have to offer and you can use this information for your reference and build your own dosing based on it and be more successful.

Hi Happi

I’m currently rolling my own with EI macro’s (but testing 8ppm Po4 to combat a slight GSA issue) and an APFUK clone for micro’s. The tank is just coming up to 4mths old.

My main goal so far has been to achieve a reasonable level of stability (difficult in a new tank where everything is changing and establishing) and learn from what small changes can tell me. Moving a slow grower with GSA to a shadier spot (GSA disappeared) Did my thriving pinitifida collapse because I let it get too big and it blocked flow? My new, better trimmed plantlets may tell me. Removing the mass of failing pinitifida from in front of my gyre did alter flow and changed Co2 levels. Will a stunted stem of Rotala H’ra that was smothered, un-stunt now it has been uncovered? We’ll see….and so on.

I feel I need to understand more about these interactions and their consequences whilst maintaining a stable regime of Co2 and ferts in the background.

I’m also only running medium light (which is more in my comfort zone) and other than the fairly minor nagging GSA on a few slow growers, I’ve had virtually no algae so far.

My first ‘brave’ move is likely to be very small incremental light increases to see how the tank responds but I suspect that playing with ferts and/or perhaps exploring a leaner dosing approach is a bit down the road for me.

Figuring out how this stuff works is as fascinating and rewarding to me as growing beautiful plants and keeping happy fish so I have no doubt that I will experiment with things…..and re-reference this thread in the future….but for now, i’m reading with interest and taking things slow. 😊

 

[Happi]

0.25 + 0.9 dtpa

I just want to make sure this is not an typo, you sure you meant 1.15 ppm Fe total over here?

 

[John q]

Erm, my bad old mix contained 0.09ppm dtpa. 🙉

I was dosing 0.34ppm total Fe.
New mix I'm planning contains 0.3ppm Fe.

Post above edited.

 

[Hanuman]

Hi @Wookii Let's not take the mocking too far - not necessary. There is obviously no significance to the constant in the calculations above - as a matter of fact its superfluous like dividing or multiplying by 1. For any fixed amount of one of the elements its trivial to calculate the proportional amount you get from the other elements if their content are known. otherElementPct / (targetElementPct / targetElementPPM) = otherElementPPM

Cheers,
Michael

Actually pretty much well deserved.

 

[Hanuman]

You’re absolutely right and learning all that stuff is part of the journey. You can mess with your ferts and your flow and ur light and ur biomass and worst case, you’ll get some algae and kill some plants and learn something along the way. Running high Co2, however, can be a whole lot more dangerous in inexperienced hands.

You see that's the exact reasonning that was used to ban Gregg from TPT. In that case it was KH causing catastrophic PH swings that would kill all living matter on earth and nearby planets, and providing such "advice" to noobs was unconceivable, worse yet, evil. Noob or not it's up to the person to research and apply. No one is forcing anyone to pump the CO2 like a mad man to extreme highs without using a slice of their own brains.

The thing is you also need to mess with CO2 to learn, everyone has, preferably without fish, but we have all been there, sometimes unintentionally. I am not saying one needs to gas fish to understand but you can't be censoring your own opinion because some brain dead folk just will decide to do everything you say to the T without using 2 neurone.

 

[Hanuman]

What do I win? 😀

The face of the Queen when the word "Boom" drops. Priceless.

 

[KirstyF]

You see that's the exact reasonning that was used to ban Gregg from TPT. In that case it was KH causing catastrophic PH swings that would kill all living matter on earth and nearby planets, and providing such "advice" to noobs was unconceivable, worse yet, evil. Noob or not it's up to the person to research and apply. No one is forcing anyone to pump the CO2 like a mad man to extreme highs without using a slice of their own brains.

The thing is you also need to mess with CO2 to learn, everyone has, preferably without fish, but we have all been there, sometimes unintentionally. I am not saying one need to gas fish to understand but you can't be censoring your own opinion because some brain dead folk just will decide to do everything you say to the T without using 2 neurone.

But unlike TPT (or certain people from that site) opinions here are generally welcomed and certainly varied.

Gregg has offered the opinion of an experienced aquarist, which I don’t fundamentally disagree with. I have offered a word of caution from the perspective of someone new to high tech and Co2.

The folks reading this thread will see both opinions and make up their own minds regarding their actions.

What happened to Gregg was appalling IMO and a broad spectrum of ideas, thoughts and methodologies is one of the many valuable things that this forum has to offer.

Please rest assured that I would never seek to censor anyones opinion, only to express my own, and always with respect where respect has been given 😊

 

[GreggZ]

You see that's the exact reasonning that was used to ban Gregg from TPT. In that case it was KH causing catastrophic PH swings that would kill all living matter on earth and nearby planets, and providing such "advice" to noobs was unconceivable, worse yet, evil. Noob or not it's up to the person to research and apply. No one is forcing anyone to pump the CO2 like a mad man to extreme highs without using a slice of their own brains.

The thing is you also need to mess with CO2 to learn, everyone has, preferably without fish, but we have all been there, sometimes unintentionally. I am not saying one needs to gas fish to understand but you can't be censoring your own opinion because some brain dead folk just will decide to do everything you say to the T without using 2 neurone.

Yikes I didn't think talking about optimizing CO2 would be controversial!! I've got watch what I say everywhere.😆

But in all seriousness I think new folks sometimes are too afraid of CO2. I was also new at one time and never gassed my fish. And I know lots of newbies I have helped over the years who have never gassed their fish either. In fact, I hardly know of anyone who has gassed their fish ever, and if so it's usually a dumb mistake/accident or a mechanical failure.

And I wasn't suggesting someone new goes right to nose bleed levels. I was hoping by having a better understanding of how things work it could help some people learn how to dial it in. I can't tell you how many times someone has told me their CO2 is at 30 ppm and then when we really get to talking it's nowhere close.

IMO getting it right pays dividends. Makes much of the fert discussion mute.

 

[GreggZ]

But unlike TPT (or certain people from that site) opinions here are generally welcomed and certainly varied.

Gregg has offered the opinion of an experienced aquarist, which I don’t fundamentally disagree with. I have offered a word of caution from the perspective of someone new to high tech and Co2.

The folks reading this thread will see both opinions and make up their own minds regarding their actions.

What happened to Gregg was appalling IMO and a broad spectrum of ideas, thoughts and methodologies is one of the many valuable things that this forum has to offer.

Please rest assured that I would never seek to censor anyones opinion, only to express my own, and always with respect where respect has been given 😊

Thanks, and I have been enjoying the discussion with you. Don't change a thing.

 

[Hanuman]

I think for beginners and even for those who have a fair amount of experience, what is important is to listen to the advice of people with more experience who have proven that their method work and which has been replicated by others over and over again. Obviously for the sake of science one can test underdogs' methods but you need to ask yourself why those methods are not wildly adopted and if there is anything else you can do to improve your current methodology before changing a bunch on things.

 

[Hanuman]

Planning on tweaking my micro dosing mix (again) appreciate you probably would advise against this mix as its not exactly lean but would appreciate any feedback you have.
For the last 2 weeks or so I've been dosing this without any major issues.

Don't take this wrong or personnaly, but you see that's the problem right there that many many people do, focusing on ferts and ratios before thinking of the rest. First questions that everyone should ask themselves:

1. Did I look at optimizing light/CO2 and possibly other parameters like DO, temperature etc?
2. Can I improve my maintenance?
3. Were my plants unhappy? And did I look at macros before even looking at micros?
4. Did I notice and confidently pinpointed with a high degree of certainty that I had a trace deficiency before I started to change my micro mix?

If you were dosing micros and macros to good levels and you have an active substrate the probability that you have a micro issue is infinitely small, if not virtually inexistent unless you are overdosing. So why change it? I am making this statements because I see this thread is turning into some alchemist cookbook recipe melting pot with hidden promises of plants turning crazy getting out of the water to hug you and thank you for your changes in ferts ratios. Ain't happening. We are not even talking anymore about the pro and cons of lean dosing here which is the thread title but rather exposing micro ratios and magical numbers, which even Tom Barr, a degreed botanist with a Ph.D, or even others can't confidently tell you how good they are.

 

[John q]

Don't take this wrong or personnaly, but you see that's the problem right there that many many people do, focusing on ferts and ratios before thinking of the rest.

Not taken in any way other than good honest advice, I even agree with the above statement.

Why am I messing with ferts? It's a good question. I ran both my tanks for about 7~8 months dosing various levels of ei and was quite happy with the results. Then I got bored... I was also constantly hearing about how folks needed to read the plants and learn how to accurately spot genuine nutrient deficiencies, well I'd never seen a deficiency, and never would as long as I dosed ei levels of ferts.

Last November I got some gsa appearing on some leaves, so I tweaked my dosing and added some extra P04 (4ppm), the gsa disappeared. If I'd stuck to the prescribed ei dose of 3ppm P04 I'd have never seen this effect.

So it got me thinking, maybe I can mess around with various levels of nutrients and see for myself what happens. No need to read and believe what x or y says in a book, or on a forum, I get to see it, and gain first hand knowledge myself. Doing this might also help distract me from the mundane 9~5 ground hog day that I seemed to be slipping into.

Shortly after setting out on this journey of discovery I stumbled upon this thread, and to be honest thought Happi was talking a load of boll*cks (read my early posts in this thread.)
Then I realised I could test out these theory's, see if there was any truth to this snake charmers claims, maybe witness a few deficiencies along the way, hence why I'm here.

So far I've seen deficiencies, stunting, weird ass deformed growth, algae, plants changing colour and C02 spikes, all induced and corrected (directly or indirectly) by removing or adding nutrients. I've also learnt that my plants don't require 20ppm of N03 every week.
At the very least I've had a distraction over the last few months, at best I've maybe learnt something.

My intention now regards farting about with traces is simply an extension of what I've been doing, maybe Happi will give me some magic golden ratio, maybe not. I'm willing to try it and see if it works, if it doesn't... Que sera, sera.

 

[GreggZ]

So far I've seen deficiencies, stunting, weird ass deformed growth, algae, plants changing colour and C02 spikes, all induced and corrected (directly or indirectly) by removing or adding nutrients.

I love the honest representation of what you are experiencing.

My intention now regards farting about with traces is simply an extension of what I've been doing, maybe Happi will give me some magic golden ratio, maybe not. I'm willing to try it and see if it works, if it doesn't... Que sera, sera.

I hope you keep trying. I’ve been hearing about these magic ratios and recipes for many, many years, and have yet to see it be repeatable. Please keep us posted as to how things progress.

When I read these things I try to keep the average hobbyist in mind. If getting down to this level of detail is what makes a tank successful, I doubt many would even try. Heck I love all this talk and keep painstaking records myself, but this is taking it to a whole new level.

The reality is that there are thousands of people out there who keep successful tanks without ever worrying about these ratios and recipes. How do they do it? By trusting tried and true methodologies that have proven time and time again to work.

I am lucky in that I get to pick the brains of many of the best plant growers from around the world. Their tanks speak for themselves. The interesting thing is that while nutrient dosing comes up, it’s discussed far less frequently than most would imagine. Our discussions usually revolve around things like light, CO2, maintenance, substrates, and the most overlooked.....trimming/pruning/horticulture.

My opinion is that if you get these right you have a lot of leeway with fert dosing. Try to think of adjusting ferts like fine tuning an engine. It’s got to be running first. And if you don’t get the rest right, all the fine tuning of ferts in the world isn’t going to save you.

 

[Happi]

With that in mind.

Another quick question for @Happi if you don't mind or anybody else that wants to chime in.

Planning on tweaking my micro dosing mix (again) appreciate you probably would advise against this mix as its not exactly lean but would appreciate any feedback you have.
For the last 2 weeks or so I've been dosing this without any major issues.

Element	ppm/degree
Fe	0.25 + 0.09dtpa
Mn	0.055
Zn	0.035
B	0.032
Mo	0.005
Cu	0.007

The new mix will use a bit less Fe via csm+b, a tad more Fe from dtpa and extra Mn.

Element	ppm/degree
Fe	0.2 + 0.1 dtpa
Mn	0.132
Zn	0.028
B	0.026
Mo	0.004
Cu	0.006

Are there any other trace ratios that are majorly out of whack here?

Muchas Gracias.

#1 Currently Dosing:

Fe 0.25 + 0.09dtpa (total 0.34)
Mn 0.055
Zn 0.035
B 0.032
Mo 0.005
Cu 0.007

Aquarium Plant Food Trace seems to look better than csm+b. As of now if this is working well for you then that’s great, some of these ratios will not have major impact long as you have higher GH, I usually recommend higher GH if the Micros are likely to be high. If you could I suggest Modifying the Aquarium Plant Food Trace rather than modifying the csm+b, mainly the Fe and Mn component.

#2 Future Dosing

Fe 0.25 + 0.09dtpa (total 0.34)
Mn 0.15
Zn 0.035
B 0.032
Mo 0.005
Cu 0.007

You mentioned that this is csm+b but this rather looks like Aquarium Plant Food Trace.

Future Dosing #3

Fe 0.2 + 0.1 dtpa (total 0.3)
Mn 0.132
Zn 0.028
B 0.026
Mo 0.004
Cu 0.006

#2 and #3 will work well for you, some components will buildup overtime in the aquarium but frequent water changes will keep them down.

lets assume you use 100% RO water and add Ca 25, Mg 10 to mineralize and add decent amount of Macro that also add some NH4/Urea, I don't see why you will fail.

 

[Happi]

Shortly after setting out on this journey of discovery I stumbled upon this thread, and to be honest thought Happi was talking a load of boll*cks (read my early posts in this thread.)
Then I realised I could test out these theory's, see if there was any truth to this snake charmers claims, maybe witness a few deficiencies along the way, hence why I'm here.

John, you are still far from knowing the truth, but you will slowly get there. there are still several flaws in your dosing approach that will continue to give you mixed results as previously mentioned before. pick up a bottle of "Tropica Plant Growth Specialized" and watch your plant deficiencies and deformation disappear.

 

[Happi]

@John q​

what is your plan for the NPK?

 

[MichaelJ]

Hi @Happi, What is your take on front-loading all Ca/Mg + NPK for the week with my weekly 40% WC. I've been doing so for as long as I can remember. The question is course in the context of a leaner dosing regime.

EDIT: If I am not mistaken I believe @John q is doing the same, so he will probably be interested in hearing your take as well.

Cheers,
Michael

 

[Happi]

Hi @Happi, What is your take on front-loading all Ca/Mg + NPK for the week with my weekly 40% WC. I've been doing so for as long as I can remember. The question is course in the context of a leaner dosing regime.

EDIT: If I am not mistaken I believe @John q is doing the same, so he will probably be interested in hearing your take as well.

Cheers,
Michael

there is nothing wrong with such approach, Ca/Mg NPK all can be added once a week, you can also do something similar to Micros that are strongly chelated. it wouldn't work out well if you were to use NH4 or Urea once a week, but for NO3 this is totally fine. but just remember not to add too much NO3 either because it will stunt some plants, adding 5-10 ppm NO3 weekly is sufficient.

we don't have to worry so much about NPK, Ca, Mg being dosed once a week, but Micro and Fe are different story, like I said it will depend on how stable they are in your water and if they are stable then they last longer, even up to a week. DTPA Fe for example can stay in the water for even one full week under proper condition.

 

[Wookii]

Hi @Happi, What is your take on front-loading all Ca/Mg + NPK for the week with my weekly 40% WC. I've been doing so for as long as I can remember. The question is course in the context of a leaner dosing regime.

EDIT: If I am not mistaken I believe @John q is doing the same, so he will probably be interested in hearing your take as well.

Cheers,
Michael

I would have thought that goes against the whole lean dosing concept to be honest, as the tank won't be running on the lean level of nutrients for most of the week. The concept, as I understand it, is that nutrients aren't in significant excess at any point.

Edit: My post crossed with @Happi's and an incorrect guess from me.