Is expensive bio media worth it?

[noobscaper]

Wow! So many responses! Thanks for the in-depth explanations @dw1305 , though I can't really say I understand much from them...
Since the need for nitrification is so exaggerated and pretty much anything goes as bio media, what would you say is the best flow-wise? Sponge? K1? Also is there much point using K1 in a canister (since it can't move around unless you use less)?

 

[KirstyF]

I’ve got 850 thermo’s and I’ve pulled one of the standard sponges out, put a single pack of the plastic media in each of two trays (the bags are pretty small, so plenty of space to move around) and I’ve added a bag of purigen in the last tray as it’s a new tank. Also kept the orange sponge. Can’t say I’ve noticed any noise at all from movement of the media.😊

what would you say is the best flow-wise? Sponge? K1?

The answer to this could be…..scrubbies! 😂 but in fairness I can’t see any issue with just using the media included. As you paid for it already, it’s even better value than scrubbies on this occasion. 👍

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

Also is there much point using K1 in a canister (since it can't move around unless you use less)?

If it floats and is moved around in the media tray by the flow of water, does it make a noise? I have seen some standard K1 filters where are you see lots of the little plastic nodules swirling around like crazy and it can be quite noisy.

Not a lot, but you can pack it a bit tighter, it is still pretty good as a <"static medium">

In theory you could do away with the thin orange sponge and the filter floss (which I know Darrel won't like),

Yes, no fine sponge or floss in the filter for me, <"but I'm pretty lazy"> and like to open the filter as infrequently as possible. I'm also a <"botanicals"> fan so "Purigen" really would be counter productive for me.

cheers Darrel
.

 

[Wookii]

which would you recommend for an Oase styleline 85 tank? For the small difference in price between the 250 and 350, I’m thinking going for the 350 (thermo of course).

Are you going high tech or low tech? I have the 600 on a 60 litre low tech, and it’s plenty of flow. I have to 850 on a 100 litre high tech, but flowing through a CO2 reactor, and it’s not enough flow.

did you drill the extra holes at the same diameter as the originals and how many more did you go for? Twice as many, three times as many?

Yes same diameter, pretty much tripled the number of holes.

Coarse it is then. How about black in the first tray?

As I say, I prefer the blue (medium) prefilter sponges, the coarse let too much through for me, but it got to be your call. I don’t think you can get anything other than blue for the main tray sponges, unless you made your own. The blue work perfectly well anyway, as they are quite thick.

I do like the idea of using filter floss just as a final polish but does it not affect the flow rate?

Possibly - I’ve not really tested it without.

Good to know that you don’t really need to use Purigen permanently. It looks like it is expensive. And a bit of a PITA to do constant regeneration.

It’s not that expensive given you can reuse it many times, but yes, it is a PITA and does not fit well with a maintenance-phobe like myself.

 

[CJM70]

Brilliant. That has given me plenty to think about. Thanks everyone.

 

[Mr.Shenanagins]

The only media I’ve “spent” on is Poret foam, and I think it’s worthwhile investment for mechanical and biological filtration.

 

[jaypeecee]

Although in fairness, will there be others to refute it?….sure there will be, it’s the internet! 😂

Hi @KirstyF

Whichever side of the discussion/argument you're on, just ask those on the other side to provide scientific proof of their case! Chances are that all will go quiet.

JPC

 

[erwin123]

I'm all for sponges including fine sponges (if you have enough layers of coarse/regular sponges before the fine sponge, the fine sponge does not clog up that quickly) because they do both mechanical and biological filtration.

I'm prepared to sacrifice some flow to get clearer water - but thats because my filters' published flowrate is 24x the tank volume, so I have some 'spare' capacity.

 

[Matti]

I use the blue 30ppi sponge on my dennerle hbo. Does the job, both mechanical and bio filtration. Easy to clean, cheap and lasts long. If I would have more space for filter media I would ad some floss, but before the sponges so it would keep them clean from all the dirt.
Really hurts to see some youtube-gurus throw away the humble sponges and replace them with something that is only more expensive and comes with a fancy label on the package. Because according to them sponge is not for bio-filtration. Of course it is, any surface is for bio-filtration.

 

[Angus]

In fact I will probably plant for the plastic K1 type media some of which seems to come with the filter in the first place.

I do have a question about plastic media though. If it floats and is moved around in the media tray by the flow of water, does it make a noise? I have seen some standard K1 filters where are you see lots of the little plastic nodules swirling around like crazy and it can be quite noisy.

So i have been around a few large sumps with fluidized compartments of k1, and they make very little noise, the water going into the filter socks probably makes more noise, not sure about in a canister though as there is probably more possibility of rattling against the plastic.

On the subject of using finer sponges, i just use the coarse sponges and put a thin layer of floss at the top of the filter if im polishing water, i got tired of squeezing fine PPI sponges.

 

[Aqua sobriquet]

One of my filters came with Siporax and it does look to have a large surface area. I guess this is good if you have a modest size filter? The other filter I’m using came supplied with Substrat Pro and once again it seems quite rough. I used plastic media many years ago and it appeared to work ok but being quite smooth I don’t suppose it can accommodate as much bacteria. How much is enough though. I’ve not seen any data on the subject.
This guy seems to rate BioHome but I’ve not used it.

 

[Conort2]

This guy seems to rate BioHome but I’ve not used it.

He’s the fella who sells it so I’m sure he would 😂

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

This guy seems to rate BioHome but I’ve not used it.

He’s the fella who sells it so I’m sure he would

He needs to add <"some science">. I believe our very own @MirandaB is a "fan".

His web-page <"still says">:

...... Please note: Tanks with heavy stock and feeding (e.g. cichlid, goldfish, predator or fry tanks) and marine tanks may require 1.5kg - 2kg per 100 litres to achieve the full cycle filtration which will result in the reduction of nitrates. Do not worry about plant growth being affected in a tank which reads zero nitrates - the nitrate is processed into soluble nitrogen which is easily used by plants, boosting their growth...........

I believe the <"owner of Aquarium Science"> asked him some specific questions, with predictable results.

.......... This paper was sent to the “Pondguru”, a British distributor of Biohome who has a YouTube channel which seems to be the “bible” for some folks. Note this YouTube channel got a 1% accuracy rating from the author and that was generous. The “Pondguru” YouTube videos on Biohome are two ten minute rambles about how Biohome “duplicates Nature” in the aquarium. No testing. No real science. Nothing! Pure snake oil salesmanship!

The best the replies from the Pondguru and the “manufacturer” could do defending their product was to say they has many anecdotal stories from users of their products where the product worked as advertised. They did not provide ANY studies from anyone which showed their product worked.......... The Pondguru than makes the incredulous statement that anecdotal evidence is more reliable than scientific experimentation........

cheers Darrel

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

One of my filters came with Siporax and it does look to have a large surface area. I guess this is good if you have a modest size filter? The other filter I’m using came supplied with Substrat Pro and once again it seems quite rough. I used plastic media many years ago and it appeared to work ok but being quite smooth I don’t suppose it can accommodate as much bacteria.

I like both <"Siporax and Eheim "Coco-pops">, if I have them I'll use them, but I'm not going out of my way <"to buy them">. The bacteria bit is just all <"smoke and mirrors">.

I don’t suppose it can accommodate as much bacteria. How much is enough though. I’ve not seen any data on the subject.

There is quite a lot of data for <"Kaldnes type floating cell media">, mainly in moving bed biofilm reactors.

This is from "Elliott, Olivia, et al. (2017) "Design and Manufacturing of High Surface Area 3D‐Printed Media for Moving Bed Bioreactors for Wastewater Treatment." Journal of Contemporary Water Research & Education 160 (2017): pp. 144-156."

........ The specific surface area and topology of a biofilter media carrier is one of the most important parameters that determines the performance and efficiency of the system. In this work, mathematical models and 3D printing technologies were used to design and fabricate complex media designs that provide high specific surface area and refugia to protect biofilm from premature sloughing. Several gyroid based designs were proposed with specific surface area well beyond 2300 m2/m3.
However, wall thicknesses and pore sizes that are prone to clogging determined a design that yields 1168 m2/m3 (133% larger than the baseline commercial K1 Kaldnes). Several moving bed bioreactors were constructed for laboratory testing with inoculation provided by wastewater from a fisheries operation. Preliminary results indicate that the 3D printed media can withstand the prevalent conditions in moving bed bioreactors, and that the NH3 removal rate of gyroid media is comparable to that of K1 Kaldnes........

cheers Darrel

 

[Aqua sobriquet]

Yes I’ve seen the floating media setups - far too big for my front room! 🙂

 

[MichaelJ]

Do you guys think the expensive stuff like Seachem Matrix

It depends.... generally no, but since the question was narrowed down to bio media products such as Seachem Matrix, I (reluctantly) voted Yes 😱 And here is the reason; there are literally not much in this hobby when it comes to upkeep where you can say something lasts forever. A 250 ml container of Matrix cost $9 a 1 Liter container about $18 (here in the US). You can rinse and reuse as many times as you want. Call me extravagant and a splurge, but that seems like a reasonable value proposition to me - alternatively I would have to figure out and vet alternative solutions, DIY etc., which would take me time and some money as well... so whatever the cost delta is, I think that is worth it for a one-time expense at this level. The same goes for coarse sponges - which is pretty much the only other media I use with Matrix (except for the addition of Purigen in one of my tanks where I don't do botanicals).

Of course, I cant speak to media I haven't tried - but I do believe these companies, including Seachem, are blowing a lot of fanciful hot air about their media. The bacteria just need something to grow on with a reasonable surface area that won't otherwise restrict flow too much through the filter. If you have some very coarse inert aquarium gravel that will do just as well I suppose, if you can find that with the right pebble size etc.

I do like @ceg4048 's idea of using toy soldiers - I wonder if a Battalion of Imperial Stormtrooper mini's will work just as well?



Cheers,
Michael

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

I’ve seen the floating media setups - far too big for my front room!

Point taken, when I first had the tanks at home I took <"the trickle filters with me">, I liked the soothing sound of running water, but it wasn't universally appreciated.

You can use <"floating cell media"> as a <"static medium in a canister filter">.

cheers Darrel

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

there are literally not much in this hobby when it comes to upkeep where you can say something lasts forever.

That is <"one advantage"> of <"pumice"> and Eheim Substrat Pro etc. <"they last eternally">.

cheers Darrel

 

[arcturus]

which would you recommend for an Oase styleline 85 tank? For the small difference in price between the 250 and 350, I’m thinking going for the 350 (thermo of course).

The 350.

did you drill the extra holes at the same diameter as the originals and how many more did you go for? Twice as many, three times as many?

I would suggest that you buy a PVC water pipe with an internal diameter of 20-21mm to replace the original ~16mm pre-filter pipe. This diameter fits the outside pipe of pre-filter intake and will almost double the section area of the pipe. I have drilled 4 holes (6-7mm diameter) every ~15mm at a 90 degree angle in this wider pipe. With this approach, you will maximize the flow through the pre-filter and will be able to keep the original Oase pipe intact.

Coarse it is then. How about black in the first tray?

Oase <has cylindrical foams for the pre-filter in three densities>: fine/black (60ppi), medium/blue (45ppi), and coarse/orange (30ppi). Afaik, Oase only produces medium/blue and coarse/orange foams with the tray format. So, if you want to use a fine/black foam in the trays then you will have to DIY.

In any case, I would suggest you to use a foam on the bottom tray not finer than what you use in the pre-filter. If you use a finer density you will need to clean up the bottom tray more frequently. Note that there is no advantage of using a fine foam on the bottom tray since the plastic media will not get clogged anyway. So, you can use a coarser foam and filter floss on the top tray to polish the water. the floss can be easily replaced without removing all the trays.

I do like the idea of using filter floss just as a final polish but does it not affect the flow rate?

Yes. Each additional media component you add to the filter will negatively affect the flow rate. If you use a not too fine floss (e.g. JBL Symec) the impact on the flow will be rather limited. If you use a very fine floss (e.g. JBL Symec micro) then the impact can be quite significant. You can consider adding a small circulation pump/wave maker if the flow is insufficient, especially if you are using CO2.

 

[CJM70]

Some cracking info here. Another question… does Siporax or Matrix or any other media discussed in this thread, affect the hardness of the water or the pH?