GSA - NPK and ppm

[Happi]

Furthermore, if i ever want to Control the Algae's "I control the N and P"

 

[Elroy]

Hi,

I am sitting here on the sidelines and is following your conversation with great deal of interest.

As the novice that I am, I don't really have anything to contribute with, except that I find @MichaelJ's post, where he gives both parties the right, quite interesting and quite likely. Can't argue why though.

 

[Happi]

@Happi have you actually ever tried adding large amounts of P04 to combat gsa?

Yes, I have tried the large doses of PO4 as well as low to Zero PO4 and I have spent half of my life working with plants, fertilizers, Ratio and lights. and am 100% Confident to say that "GSA has nothing to do with Low PO4"

Honestly, I do not remember when was the last time I have encountered the GSA because its been few years now and some tank had 0 PO4 readings, while some tank only got like 0.1 P weekly.

This:

@John q I think by "illusion" @Happi is not denying that it works, but is rather saying that the GSA disappearing is a secondary effect, rather than a primary. I.e more along the lines of what Darrel was saying with PO4 possibly binding excess Fe ions. For what it's worth, I think my experience fits along with this. I've found that when GSA is present, mega dosing PO4 does indeed get rid of it, but if I then run PO4 at low levels, the GSA doesn't recur... So to me, it seems that low PO4 doesn't cause GSA, but high PO4 will treat it.

Definitely seems like some sort of secondary effect.

 

[Elroy]

Hi @Happi, @John q, @xZaiox, @dw1305, @MichaelJ, @_Maq_, @Hufsa

Can I assume that I have to dose some Phosphate in my tank, when I already have some GSA (or GDA). I can understand that you @Happi, don't think one need to dose phosphate to prevent GSA from coming - or do I get it completely wrong?

But, as I already got some GSA in the tank, I guess I do have to dose some Phosphate to combat it? I read somewhere, that phosphate levels in a planted aquarium should be kept between 0.5 and 1.0 ppm (mg/L).

So if I'm aiming for 0.5 ppm, I guess it's not entirely wrong - or do I totally misunderstand what you write? According to the Barr calculator I must dose 43.7 milliliter Phosphate to reach a target of 0.5ppm PO4.( I expect it to be on a weekly basis?) The level of Phosphate in my tank was 0.11 ppm yesterday around noon.

Cheers Elroy

 

[xZaiox]

Can I assume that I have to dose some Phosphate in my tank, when I already have some GSA (or GDA).

As per the above comments - it seems that phosphate may not be as relevant to appearance of GSA as previously thought. Low PO4 doesn't seem to be the cause of GSA.

But, as I already got some GSA in the tank, I guess I do have to dose some Phosphate to combat it? I read somewhere, that phosphate levels in a planted aquarium should be kept between 0.5 and 1.0 ppm (mg/L).

Despite my above comment, it seems that excess PO4 can treat GSA. I was previously dosing the EI level of 3ppm of PO4 and had GSA, and I increased the PO4 dosing to 10ppm - this got rid of the GSA. I haven't actually even been dosing PO4 at all lately since there is some in my tap water, and I have a lot of fat fish that get fed plenty. I've had no recurrence of GSA despite the drastically reduced PO4 dosing.

Basically, my point, is that high PO4 dosing may help you get rid of GSA, but the underlying reason it helps is a secondary effect. If the conditions in your tank favour GSA, then you may get a recurrence when you lower the PO4 dosing again.

 

[MichaelJ]

As the novice that I am, I don't really have anything to contribute with, except that I find @MichaelJ's post, where he gives both parties the right, quite interesting and quite likely. Can't argue why though.

Hi @Elroy, thank you. I think it usually serves us well to be humble and nuanced when dealing with complex cause and effect topics in this hobby - they are never black and white scenarios.

"because as we know, there are known knowns; there are things we know we know. We also know there are known unknowns; that is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns—the ones we don't know we don't know." - Donald H Rumsfeld.

Cheers,
Michael

 

[Elroy]

​

Hi @MichaelJ,

Humbleness is a fine approach to things, I think.

"because as we know, there are known knowns; there are things we know we know. We also know there are known unknowns; that is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns—the ones we don't know we don't know." - Donald H Rumsfeld.

Although I in no way share Mr. Rumsfeld's view of the political world, and his involvement in the controversial decision on the military attack on Iraq, or the prisoner abuse and torture committed by the US Army against prisoners of war that took place in the Abu Ghraib prison and the Guantanamo camp in Cuba, I find it is an very interesting phrase from a response Mr. Rumsfeld gave to a question at a U.S. Department of Defense news briefing.

I guess bringing up his political worldview is way off topic and is a thing we eventually can discuss it in another forum

And now back to dealing with fertilizer methods, phosphate, algae and so on. Have a nice day

Cheers Elroy

 

[Elroy]

Hi,

Just a minor update since last. Things seems to get a bit better. I still add 17 ml. of Tropica Premium on a daily basis. And until three days ago I also added 8 ml. of Phosphorous. As you can see on attached pics, algae is not as prominent as before. For now I will be content with dosing Tropica Premium, as things seems to getting back to normal. At the other pics you can see one of my Blue Acara watching over some new layed eggs. That is nice. Might indicate that things are getting back to normal?

Cheers Elroy

 

[John q]

Looking good @Elroy
Keep an eye on those valls, they'll soon be taking over the tank.

 

[Elroy]

Yeah, its starting to look ok, I think. Thanks for all the input(s) in the way getting here And I will keep a close eye on the valls, to make sure they dont spread too much.

I got one question regarding the Blue Acara and their eggs/fry. I got a water change coming up. I will do it saturday - 40%. How do I do that the most gentle way, when talking about Blue Acara eggs/fry?

 

[Elroy]

Just a short update,

Last week a couple of my Blue Acare were underway with egg/fry, but when I came home from work friday there were no eggs nor fry to be seen. Guess it was the usual suspects (Siamese algea eaters) who went for a snack.

Regarding algae (GSA or GDA) it is not all gone, but its getting better. In the end of a week, just before water change, its quite easy to see its still there, though.

And regarding plant growth, plants seem fine, at this point. I still add 17 ml of Tropica Premium on a daily basis and do a 40 % WC on fridays/saturdays.

Cheers Elroy

 

[DudeFromPantanal]

Hi all,

I've thought about it a lot, but the only two options I can think of are;

• luxury uptake of phosphate ions (PO4---) leading to cell death and
• shortage of available iron (Fe++(+)) leading to cell death.

Cheers Darrel

@dw1305 so if this an iron effect or some ionic interaction effect… adding an accurate ammount of AlSo4 would not have the same effect? AlSo4 would have a massive effect in locking away and precipitate nutrients..

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

@dw1305 so if this an iron effect or some ionic interaction effect…

I really don't know, but it has to be one or the other. "Death by luxury uptake" is quite common in higher plants. As well as PO4--- <"in Protea spp."> etc, it is one of the problems of ferrous iron in water logged soils <"https://www.incitecpivotfertilisers.com.au/~/media/Files/IPF/Documents/Fact Sheets/23 Iron Fact Sheet.pdf">.

....... adding an accurate ammount of AlSo4 would not have the same effect? AlSo4 would have a massive effect in locking away and precipitate nutrients..

I don't know, I've never added Al2(SO4)3, amongst other things <"it is a molluscicide">, and I like snails. It is used in water treatment to reduce PO4--- levels, but it <"works as a coagulant">.

....... Aluminium sulphate is used in water purification and for chemical phosphorus removal from wastewater. It causes suspended impurities to coagulate into larger particles and then settle to the bottom of the container (or be filtered out) more easily........

The solubility chart suggests that most nutrients would <"still be available">,

cheers Darrel

 

[DudeFromPantanal]

Hi all,

I really don't know, but it has to be one or the other. "Death by luxury uptake" is quite common in higher plants. As well as PO4--- <"in Protea spp."> etc, it is one of the problems of ferrous iron in water logged soils <"https://www.incitecpivotfertilisers.com.au/~/media/Files/IPF/Documents/Fact Sheets/23 Iron Fact Sheet.pdf">.

I don't know, I've never added Al2(SO4)3, amongst other things it is a molluscicide, and I like snails. It is used in water treatment to reduce PO4--- levels, but it <"works as a coagulant">.

The solubility chart suggests that most nutrients would <"still be available">,
View attachment 218440

cheers Darrel

I have read somewhere that in higher dosage it can bind NO3 and NH4… so if I understood correctly it can act as a barrier to alkalinization of the water? right? (hydroxides) or its the opposite (acidification)?

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

so if I understood correctly it can act as a barrier to alkalinization of the water? right? (hydroxides)

The flocculant (from the aluminium sulphate addition) is aluminium hydroxide (Al(OH)3) <"High flux water purification using aluminium hydroxide hydrate gels">, which forms the wall paper paste like gel (coagulant), in harder water.

I'll be honest I can't imagine any use for it (Al2(SO4)3), whatsoever, in aquariums. I've never really suffered <"from GSA"> (or <"BBA">), but again I don't really know why.

I tend to look <"on all the algae in the same way">, they are an <"inevitable part of aquarium keeping"> and <"not necessarily a bad thing">.

cheers Darrel