_Maq_
Member
I like your reasoning. It truly may be like that!
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GSA - NPK and ppm
- Thread starter Elroy
- Start date
Hi all,
I've thought about it a lot, but the only two options I can think of are;
- luxury uptake of phosphate ions (PO4---) leading to cell death and
- shortage of available iron (Fe++(+)) leading to cell death.
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Hi,
Interesting reasoning you got @dw1305
I just got the Hanna Phosphate checker. First reading say 0.10 ppm.
If I go for the Lean fertilizer method and dose accordingly to what @Happi recommended, how much Phosphate will I have to add? I guess I do have to add some? I know Happi wrote something like this; "When dosing 40 ml of Tropica Premium 3 x week, I will add a total of 0.24 ppm Fe weekly. So I do not need to add Seachem N, P, K at all".
But when the Phosphate reading 10 minutes ago say 0.10 ppm, surely I need to add some, I think. Still got the GSA or GDA to struggle with. But when I look at the following video, I get a little confused. This bloke "MJ Aquascaping" uses Potassium and micro nutrients. Not a word of Phosphate - So, what do you say? Do I need to add Phosphate and if yes, how much on a daily basis?
Interesting reasoning you got @dw1305
I just got the Hanna Phosphate checker. First reading say 0.10 ppm.
If I go for the Lean fertilizer method and dose accordingly to what @Happi recommended, how much Phosphate will I have to add? I guess I do have to add some? I know Happi wrote something like this; "When dosing 40 ml of Tropica Premium 3 x week, I will add a total of 0.24 ppm Fe weekly. So I do not need to add Seachem N, P, K at all".
But when the Phosphate reading 10 minutes ago say 0.10 ppm, surely I need to add some, I think. Still got the GSA or GDA to struggle with. But when I look at the following video, I get a little confused. This bloke "MJ Aquascaping" uses Potassium and micro nutrients. Not a word of Phosphate - So, what do you say? Do I need to add Phosphate and if yes, how much on a daily basis?
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Hi again,
Forgot to add another question. Both @Happi and the bloke in the video add fertilizer several times during the week. @Happi suggest 40 ml Tropica Premium 3x week, as each dose will ad 0.08 ppm Fe, total 0.24 ppm Fe weekly. you really don't need to add Seachem N, P, K at all. And "MJ Aquascaping" add Potassium on monday, wednesday and friday and Micro fertilizer on monday.
Is that important to be strict and adding it according to a specific scheme or can I just add it once a day?
Cheers Elroy
Forgot to add another question. Both @Happi and the bloke in the video add fertilizer several times during the week. @Happi suggest 40 ml Tropica Premium 3x week, as each dose will ad 0.08 ppm Fe, total 0.24 ppm Fe weekly. you really don't need to add Seachem N, P, K at all. And "MJ Aquascaping" add Potassium on monday, wednesday and friday and Micro fertilizer on monday.
Is that important to be strict and adding it according to a specific scheme or can I just add it once a day?
Cheers Elroy
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The plants arent really that specific about things. Daily dosing is usually preferred when it comes to micro fertilizer, as iron and some of the other nutrients have a tendency to bind with other things from the tap water, and become unavailable to the plants after little time. Therefore "refilling" on a daily basis with new plant available nutrients makes sense to do, if that is practical to do for the aquarist. A lot of the rest is just personal preferences and you really dont have to read too much into it
People like to pick a system and then stick to it, mostly just so that they remember to dose the right things at the right time, and not because it is important to do it exactly that way.If you want to get the attention of a specific member like Happi, you can write @ and then start typing their name, then select their name when it comes up in the little box. This will give a link like @Happi and they will get notified that they have been tagged. I know Happi is sometimes busy with his family so give him a few days to get back to you, nothing bad will happen in the meantime 😊
John q
Member
I'm sure you'll get sugestions of dosing ratios and levels, but then you question what's the deficiency. Dose everything in excess and I promise you'll never post again regards nutrient deficiency. 😁
2Hr Aquarist APT e
With the 2HR Aquarist APT-EI, the famous nutrient dosing approach pioneered by Tom Barr is now available in a ready-to-use concentrate that removes the guesswork from trying to recreate this powerful and sometimes elusive formula.
www.2hraquarist.com
They don't publicise this, but if you look carefully you will realise that APT EI is the same price as APT Complete and contains about double the nutrients. So if you want to save 50%, just buy APT EI and apply a half dose. That's what I'm doing.
As you probably know, English isn't my native language, so I might not express my self quite the way I really want to, in order to get the right answer. But I try, so please bear with me
2Hr Aquarist APT e
With the 2HR Aquarist APT-EI, the famous nutrient dosing approach pioneered by Tom Barr is now available in a ready-to-use concentrate that removes the guesswork from trying to recreate this powerful and sometimes elusive formula.
They don't publicise this, but if you look carefully you will realise that APT EI is the same price as APT Complete and contains about double the nutrients. So if you want to save 50%, just buy APT EI and apply a half dose. That's what I'm doing.
Yeah, I guess that's the typical business strategy, in order to make money
Hi,
I didn't get to do a water change yesterday due to work, so I'm doing it today. That will be 40% and I will do some trimming at the same time.
As for which dosage method I should choose, it will be the Lean method. I dose 17 ml of Tropica Premium and choose to pour 8 ml of Seachem Phosphate on top. Then I have to see how the algae react to it. Furthermore I will plant some (more) Limnophila sessiliflora. My local aquarium pusher is at the fair, so I'll have to wait until he's back to get more/other plants.
Cheers
I didn't get to do a water change yesterday due to work, so I'm doing it today. That will be 40% and I will do some trimming at the same time.
As for which dosage method I should choose, it will be the Lean method. I dose 17 ml of Tropica Premium and choose to pour 8 ml of Seachem Phosphate on top. Then I have to see how the algae react to it. Furthermore I will plant some (more) Limnophila sessiliflora. My local aquarium pusher is at the fair, so I'll have to wait until he's back to get more/other plants.
Cheers
@Elroy
I would still suggest sticking with what i have recommended and we can add Extra PO4 if its ever needed, IMO i do not see any reason to add it during this time. if you want, you can add little MgSO4 to the water if you like, something like 5 ppm Mg.
far as PO4 getting rid of GSA, IME this is caused by an Illusion and this subject is more related to water chemistry, Ratios, Fertilizers and type of Chemicals being used. Ratios are also important and this has been discussed several time before, but this thread is not the right place to go into them. EDIT: I have given a example below, if you are interested, we can talk about this in another thread?
adding Mg alone have a significant impact on reducing GSA and GDA.
Ratio Example: person added 10 ml of a product that adds 0.1 ppm Fe and 0.01 ppm Mn and he was still seeing Fe deficiency and he bumped up the dose to 20 ml which adds 0.2 ppm Fe and 0.02 ppm Mn and he was still seeing Fe deficiency, he got frustrated and added 40 ml Dose, which adds 0.4 ppm Fe and 0.04 ppm Mn, he notice some improvement and thought that he was lacking Fe. He further decided to add 100 ml dose, which adds 1 ppm Fe and 0.1 ppm Mn and now he saw more improvement but most of his plant still looked pale or Fe deficient, he was also dealing with lot of green algae's during this time. He decided to try a different product and he added the 10 ml dose which adds about 0.1 ppm Fe and 0.05 ppm Mn, he start to see great improvement and he bumped up dose to 20 ml, which adds 0.2 ppm Fe and 0.1 ppm Mn and his plant showed no sign of Fe deficiency. He was happy with the results but never put much thought into why it worked.
I would still suggest sticking with what i have recommended and we can add Extra PO4 if its ever needed, IMO i do not see any reason to add it during this time. if you want, you can add little MgSO4 to the water if you like, something like 5 ppm Mg.
far as PO4 getting rid of GSA, IME this is caused by an Illusion and this subject is more related to water chemistry, Ratios, Fertilizers and type of Chemicals being used. Ratios are also important and this has been discussed several time before, but this thread is not the right place to go into them. EDIT: I have given a example below, if you are interested, we can talk about this in another thread?
adding Mg alone have a significant impact on reducing GSA and GDA.
Ratio Example: person added 10 ml of a product that adds 0.1 ppm Fe and 0.01 ppm Mn and he was still seeing Fe deficiency and he bumped up the dose to 20 ml which adds 0.2 ppm Fe and 0.02 ppm Mn and he was still seeing Fe deficiency, he got frustrated and added 40 ml Dose, which adds 0.4 ppm Fe and 0.04 ppm Mn, he notice some improvement and thought that he was lacking Fe. He further decided to add 100 ml dose, which adds 1 ppm Fe and 0.1 ppm Mn and now he saw more improvement but most of his plant still looked pale or Fe deficient, he was also dealing with lot of green algae's during this time. He decided to try a different product and he added the 10 ml dose which adds about 0.1 ppm Fe and 0.05 ppm Mn, he start to see great improvement and he bumped up dose to 20 ml, which adds 0.2 ppm Fe and 0.1 ppm Mn and his plant showed no sign of Fe deficiency. He was happy with the results but never put much thought into why it worked.
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no numbers were given, so its hard to tell what exactly and how much he was dosing for his "lean dosing" experiment. but, I do know that you can achieve the fast and good growth while dosing lean when using different ratios and Chemicals for fertilizers.
xZaiox
Member
@John q I think by "illusion" @Happi is not denying that it works, but is rather saying that the GSA disappearing is a secondary effect, rather than a primary. I.e more along the lines of what Darrel was saying with PO4 possibly binding excess Fe ions. For what it's worth, I think my experience fits along with this. I've found that when GSA is present, mega dosing PO4 does indeed get rid of it, but if I then run PO4 at low levels, the GSA doesn't recur... So to me, it seems that low PO4 doesn't cause GSA, but high PO4 will treat it.
Definitely seems like some sort of secondary effect.
Definitely seems like some sort of secondary effect.
MichaelJ
Member
I agree.
I am not a big fan of these videos, and even less a fan of discussing them, but here are a couple of observations:
The Lean tank is only dosed with Potassium and Micros... No N or P column dosing, thus only relying on the enriched substate - I believe this is an unusual approach to Lean.
The video provides no information about water parameters. I assume the water in both tanks are remineralized RO water - at 1:27 it shows an ARKA Aqua 190 RO box. However, there are no information on what he targets for Ca:Mg ... I do see Cherry shrimps in both tanks, so if he knows about proper shrimp keeping I would guess he targets 4-6 GH, but how much KH he targets (irrelevant for shrimps), if any, is anyones guess - the KH bit probably plays a bigger role with Lean than EI. Moreover, there are no information on what pH levels he maintain in these tanks. Again, this probably plays a bigger role in the Lean tank as well (extremely low KH, acidic water).
Also, beware on some the comparison pictures there is a subtle difference in color balance which makes judging the green colors tricky - for example 4:08 - look at how the blue background appear very different between the two tanks due to the difference in color balance.
Nevertheless, both methods seems to provide great results (as we would expect), but I do think the lean experiment tank leaves some very important questions unanswered and probably could have progressed better.
Cheers,
Michael
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John q
Member
In the video he doses ei macros on a Monday and ei micros on a Tuesday, and that's it. So not exactly following ei strategy 🙄
MichaelJ
Member
On the GSA and PO4 I am with both @John q and @Happi at the same time! ... how about that 
I have singly eradicated GSA with high levels of PO4 in both my tanks - without really changing (m)any other parameters. I do not think that was an illusion.
On the other hand, I favor @Happi's explanations given on several occasions. My takeaway is - and I am paraphrasing here - that this is mostly due to how PO4 interacts with the overall chemistry in the tank - and GSA is mostly due to fertilizer ratios being out of wack making the plants susceptible to GSA. And if you get that right you wont get GSA in the first place and you can get by with extremely low amounts of PO4 (P) or any another fertilizer element for that matter. And thats indeed been the case in one of my tanks that adhere to the Lean regime.
Cheers,
Michael
I have singly eradicated GSA with high levels of PO4 in both my tanks - without really changing (m)any other parameters. I do not think that was an illusion.
On the other hand, I favor @Happi's explanations given on several occasions. My takeaway is - and I am paraphrasing here - that this is mostly due to how PO4 interacts with the overall chemistry in the tank - and GSA is mostly due to fertilizer ratios being out of wack making the plants susceptible to GSA. And if you get that right you wont get GSA in the first place and you can get by with extremely low amounts of PO4 (P) or any another fertilizer element for that matter. And thats indeed been the case in one of my tanks that adhere to the Lean regime.
Cheers,
Michael
