GSA - NPK and ppm

[Elroy]

Hi all,

It seems Im starting to have a problem with Green Spot Algae - I think - plz see pics below. The background is Ive just rearranged my aquarium and started it up again, after its been running for about one year. Since the rearrangement its been running for approx 14 days, with new plants, gravel, rocks, filters. Some fish from the old setup and some new.

After the aquarium was running ok for about 10 days I started to see some spots on some of the leaves and on the rocks.

Specs of the tank are: 350 liters, Co2 (6 drop sec), 2 x Juwel Bioflow L filter (with material from old filter), Chihiro light (run at approx 45%) 9 hrs a day with half an hour ladder. 30-40% water change once a week.

Regarding Nutrition I use 8 mL of Tropica Nutrition on a daily basis (4 pumps on the dispencer). And as I belive the tank suffers from nutrition deficiency, I started to add (NPK): 5mL of Seachen Flourish Nitrogen twice a week along with 4 mL of Seachem Flourish Phosphorous and 4 mL of Seachem Flourish Potassium - both on a daily basis.

Now I wonder if it really is GSA and if Im right, I want to hear whether the amount of NPK is too much or too little? I dont know how to count in PPM, so I hope the measures are right?? Found dosing instructions on Seachem`s homepage.

Regards Elroy

 

[John q]

Hiya @Elroy

I want to hear whether the amount of NPK is too much or too little? Im dont know how to count in PPM

I'm making assumptions here so shout if I've got the amounts you add wrong.

PER WEEK:

56ml of tropica nutrition will add:
1.26 ppm K
0.112 ppm FE
0.62 ppm Mg
Plus other trace nutrients.

28ml Flourish potassium will add:
3.84 ppm K

28ml Flourish Phosphate will add:
0.32 ppm Po4
0.13 ppm K

10ml Flourish nitrogen will add:
1.89 ppm No3
0.47 ppm k

So total fertiliser addition =
1.89 ppm No3, 5.7 ppm K, 0.32 ppm Po4, 0.112 Fe and 0.62 ppm mg

The numbers might not mean a lot to you but in layman's terms they are mostly on the low side.

Granted you'll be getting some nitrate from the fish load you have in there and maybe you have other nutrients in your tap water? But without knowing for sure I'd suggest you increase the Tropica nutrition dose to about 80ml, double the phosphate dose to 56ml and triple the nitrogen dose to 30ml. Then give it a few weeks to see if there's any improvement.

It's also worth noting the sword plants "if" new additions could well be adapting to life under water.
The valls again if new tend to sulk a bit when they're moved from one tank to another. For the valls and the swords give them a little time to settle and concentrate on any new growth.

The stems look a bit tatty but will hopefully perk up once the fertiliser dosage is increased.

Last bit of advice get some more plants in there 😀

Cheers.

 

[MichaelJ]

Regarding Nutrition I use 8 mL of Tropica Nutrition

Tropica Premium or Tropica Specialized? Specialized contains N and P (and slightly more K) as well.

1.89 ppm No3, 5.7 ppm K, 0.32 ppm Po4, 0.112 Fe and 0.62 ppm mg

The numbers might not mean a lot to you but in layman's terms they are mostly on the low side.

Agreed... especially 1.89 ppm of NO3... that amounts to 0.42 ppm of N weekly (assuming Tropica Premium which wont add N), but this is of course a very scarcely planted tank with quite a few fish relative to plant mass.

I would add way more plants to this tank.

EDIT: @Elroy, Your tank sort of reminds me of the South American Cichlid tanks (sort of emulating a sandy riverbed) I was running in the past - a few Amazon Swords, Anubias and Vals here and there wedged in-between rocks/wood - that was it. Plants usually didn't do well, but often shredded to pieces before they would die out anyway

Cheers,
Michael

 

[Elroy]

Hi, and thanks for the advices. I thought I was dosing a little bit too much of fertilizer - boy, was I wrong. No wonder that things got a little out of control. Im like wow - just wow.

I will start right away and turn up the dosing, so I follow your suggestion John q. I just have one question regarding Potassium. How much shall I dose? You dont mension it. I guess I have to turn it up along with the others?

Regarding the "layout" of the tank - it was quite deliberate. I wanted to have a more simple layout, than I had before. But you are right. I need more plants, when the amount of fish are as relative high as it is. Im thinking of getting some of these, as Im quite fond of red plants:

A - Ludwigia palustris 'super red' - middle growth,
B - Limnophila sessiliflora - fast growing,
C - Rotala rotundifolia H´ra - fast growing.

Will these plants be enough or shall I add further?

When I add the new plants - do I need to increase the fertilizer dosing? Im planning on getting something like 3 of each plant (9)
Talking of sword plants - yeah, I read somewhere they used to "melt" a bit when they were replaced in another tank. I will be patient and give them time to settle.


MichaelJ
I use Tropica Premium. The brown one. I know the Specialized version also contains NPK. I chose to use the Premium version, as I found it would be more easy to add NPK by side. Eg I can vary a dose of N from time to time - without adding P and K. But maybe Im wrong on that one aswell?

So, to rekapitulate: I will start to dose 80ml Tropica Nutrition, 56ml Phosphate and 30 ml of Nitrogen + XX ml of Potassium. I will divide the amount with number of weekdays, and will dose this amount on a daily basis.

Again, Thanks a lot 👍

Cheers Elroy

 

[John q]

Potassium. How much shall I dose? You dont mension it.

Hiya. I didn't mention potassium because I think relative to the other nutrients the levels should be ok, increasing the other fertilisers will increase the K dose to about 6.5 ppm, so for now I don't think you'd necessarily need to add any more.

Will these plants be enough or shall I add further?

When I add the new plants - do I need to increase the fertilizer dosing?

Well you can never have to many plants.. obviously if keeping the tank minimalist is the goal then add the ones suggested and see how it looks.

Yes, as plant mass increases you might have to increase the ferts, then again you could be ok with the levels mentioned above., especially as you're only doing 20~30% water changes.

 

[Elroy]

Ok. I buy the plants and will dose according to your advice. I will write in + a fortnight, to tell how it goes. Btw how much more do I need to dose, if I increase the water change to 70%? I might add some more Co2 to the tank, not much tho, so I dont think it will have much impact on the fertilizer amount - if any?

Cheers Elroy

 

[John q]

@Elroy the above calculations are based on the full 350L tank volume, assuming no nutrients were used by the plants, and no nutrients were added by the fish you'll get a fairly calcuable accumulation of nutrients.
Eg 10ppm of x added weekly with a 40% water change would result in a peak accumulation of 25ppm x after a couple of months. With a 70% water change that 10ppm would peak at 14.5ppm after about 3 weeks.

To get the same 25ppm accumulation with a 70% water change you'd need to increase the initial 10ppm by about 70%, so 17ppm.

I wouldn't get bogged down with numbers mate, dose what you plan and if you increase the water change % just see how the plants respond and if needed add a bit more.

 

[Elroy]

Hi, and thanks for the answers. @John q - I'm really not good at calculating ppm. Not good as in NOT very good at all. My brain melts down, just like the sword plants in my tank, when it comes to ppm. I know it stands for Parts Per Million, but thats just about all I know. So I stick with the amount you suggested in ml.

Tomorrow I will clean the tank for GSA, do 40% water change and start planting my new plants (just bought them today). And then I will start to add the following amount of fertilizer (11,5 ml Tropica Nutrition, 8 ml Phosphate and 4,5 ml of Nitrogen - on a daily basis). Hopefully it will result in a healty and mature tank. When plants start to grow I will eventually add a bit more of fertilizer, depending on how the plants respond.

​

@MichaelJ - Your right. My intention was to make the tank look a bit like a South American sandy riverbed. That idea will now undergo a bit of change, to something like a South American Cichlid tank meets a North European Cichlid tank. I might call it a Cosmopolitan Cichlid tank

 

[MichaelJ]

@MichaelJ - Your right. My intention was to make the tank look a bit like a South American sandy riverbed. That idea will now undergo a bit of change, to something like a South American Cichlid tank meets a North European cichlid tank. I might call it a Cosmopolitan Cichlid tank

I like that... I figure there is plenty of middle ground where you have a good amount of plants and still stay reasonably true to your riverbed biotope vision.

Cheers,
Michael

 

[Elroy]

Good evening,

A little update since thursday. Just got home from work and found some odd things happening in my tank. Long history in short:

Friday I inspected the nutrient deficiency and removed some leaves. Did a 40% water change, planted some new plants and started to add 11,5 ml Tropica Nutrition, 8 ml Phosphate, 4,5 ml Nitrogen and 4 ml of Potassium. Thats on a daily basis.

Saturday I added same amount of fertilizers and went off to work.

Today I did the same procedure again. But when I arrived at home after work today, my tank looked a bit odd. See attached pix. Plz bear with the poor picture quality. I was in a hurry as the light was about to shut down.

As you can see some of the leaves are covered in black/green spots: I also see some diatoms - specially on the filter. Strange that there is like a fine line where nothing appears above but a lot under. How can that be? Weird, I think. There are also algae on the rocks, the CO2 diffuser and the root + on the glass.

Shall I begin to change the amount of fertilizer or shall I go a bit further ( a fourth night) before start to change - If change anything at all?

Cheers Elroy

 

[John q]

Shall I begin to change the amount of fertilizer or shall I go a bit further ( a fourth night) before start to change - If change anything at all?

I'd just cary on as you are doing, more than likely these oddities that you are seeing would have happened anyway.
The diatoms can be cleaned off the filter, glass and rocks, then do a big water change.

Unfortunately your tank is still very new and needs time to mature, until that happens you'll probably have to fight a running battle with the diatoms but it will pass eventually 👍

 

[Elroy]

@John q - Ok, I will carry on the best I have learnt. Hopefully the diatoms will go away in a "short while". I also want to hear your oppinion on what the black/green on the leaves might be - Algae, diatoms or something else? And do you have any idea of why the filter looks the way it does? Looks really particular, I think.

 

[LMuhlen]

I also get a very distinct line in my tank, dividing an area of slower GSA growth above and a faster GSA growth below. I assume it is the line that separates the area that gets exposed to air during water changes and the area that remains under water. It would seem that the GSA doesn't like to be left out of water.

 

[Elroy]

Hi,

While I await the result af my increased daily fertiliser amount, I have a question.

A couple of days ago I stumbled upon a fertiliser product from "The 2Hr Aquarist". It was the "Complete" version - 2Hr Aquarist APT Complete. It got some pretty ok reviews, so I was thinking how this product are compared to Tropicas Specialised? Better, same or worse?

Cheers Elroy

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

A couple of days ago I stumbled upon a fertiliser product from "The 2Hr Aquarist". It was the "Complete" version - 2Hr Aquarist APT Complete. It got some pretty ok reviews, so I was thinking how this product are compared to Tropicas Specialised? Better, same or worse?

The major problem I have is <"one of cost">, this is water, a plastic bottle and a dilute solution of some relatively cheap salts <"magically transformed"> by the power of the word <"Aquarium">. I'm sure they both work, but I'm going to suggest there are other options <"that work as well"> and are a lot cheaper.

This is the composition. It doesn't contain any calcium (Ca), which is a bit strange, although most of us will have some from tap water. I'm guessing that calcium isn't included to get round problems with ~insoluble <"calcium sulphate formation">.

I'll copy in @_Maq_ , as I'm guessing he might want to comment of cation ratios and @MichaelJ as he has used both <"magnesium (Mg) sources">



cheers Darrel

 

[MichaelJ]

@MichaelJ as he has used both <"magnesium (Mg) sources">

A couple of days ago I stumbled upon a fertiliser product from "The 2Hr Aquarist". It was the "Complete" version - 2Hr Aquarist APT Complete. It got some pretty ok reviews, so I was thinking how this product are compared to Tropicas Specialised? Better, same or worse?

In that linked post from when I changed dry salts about a year and a half ago I got the amounts wrong btw.... but anyway, yes, in both my tanks I use Magnesium Sulphate ( MgSO4 ) for remineralization (targeting 4 ppm of Mg with MgSO4) and in one tank I use Magnesium Nitrate ( Mg(NO3)2 ) for all my NO3 targeting ~3 ppm of N and getting about 3 ppm of Mg in addition to the 4 from MgSO4. In my other tank I use Tropica Specialized exclusively (on top of remineralization with CaSO4/MgSO4) - I highly recommend it, especially if your running a soft acidic tank. You do not really need much of this stuff to keep your plants healthy. The cost is a factor if your running a large tank and dose a lot for sure, but in my case dosing this in a 150 L tank once every 11-12 days targeting ~1 ppm of N a $25 750 ml bottle will last for 18 months... I am about 10 months in on my lean experiment (the tank where I dose Specialized) and probably have about half a bottle left.

As for the specific APT Complete vs. Tropica Specialized, I cant really say because I never used APT Complete. There are enough testimonials from good people who use APT Complete, TNC Complete and Tropica Specialized that I wouldn't hesitate to recommend or use any of them. ATP seems to be quite expensive though... The reason I use Specialized in that lean experiment tank is because @Happi (one of our top fertilizer experts here on UKAPS) told me so and its been working out wonderfully 🙂

It doesn't contain any calcium (Ca), which is a bit strange, although most of us will have some from tap water. I'm guessing that calcium isn't included to get round problems with ~insoluble <"calcium sulphate formation">.

That would be my guess as well. Usually All In One fertilizers contains no Calcium and mostly just small amounts of Magnesium. The bulk (or all) of those minerals will have to come from tap water or re-mineralizers such as CaSo4/CaCl2, MgSO4.

Cheers,
Michael

 

[John q]

so I was thinking how this product are compared to Tropicas Specialised? Better, same or worse?

Hiya Elroy, to try and compare these two fertilisers is difficult in terms of better or worse, the manufacturers of both products will claim their magic potions will make your plants pop and is superior to the other. Is there any truth in this?
Each manufacturer will follow a particular set of nutrient ratios that they have hopefully tested and have found gives the greatest results, providing you follow the prescriptive advice they suggest.

How does this answer your question? Well it doesn't, but it might go some way to explain that for some people tropica specialized and apt complete work, and work very well.

How we can compare these products is by looking at what they contain.
As mentioned above both products differ in the emphasis they put on the ratios of certain nutrients.

So these are the numbers for 70ml of each fertiliser going into your 350L tank each week. All values are in ppm. (Would appreciate somebody double checking the Apt numbers)

Tropica Specialized:
11.8 N03
0.6 P04
2 K
0.78 Mg
0.138 Fe

Apt complete:
7.2 N03
2.8 P04
15.2 K
1.6 Mg
0.2 Fe

So you can see Apt goes heavy on the K and P04 and contains slightly more Fe and Mg in comparison to tropica, tropica contains more N03 in comparison to apt.

There's a chance you could reduce the above suggested dose and that might work out, then again it might not. Either way like darrel suggested above using these types of premixed products in a 350L tank is going to be costly in the long run.

Hope I haven't confused you to much 😉

 

[MichaelJ]

Tropica Specialized:
11.8 N03

Worth noting is that the N in Tropica Specialized comes from NH4NO3 / NH4HCO3. 8 ml of TS will give you 1 ppm of N per 100 l.

On a side note: @_Maq_ had something very interesting to share about K levels relative to Mg recently.

Cheers,
Michael

 

[_Maq_]

2Hr Aquarist APT Complete. It got some pretty ok reviews, so I was thinking how this product are compared to Tropicas Specialised? Better, same or worse?

In general, this is a very common question about commercially available "complete" fertilizers.
The general answer is following: Most of these are not complete at all. If you use them in DI water, some nutrients will be missing. That's because they are supposed to be used with tap water which itself contains many nutrients. Therefore, these fertilizers are not "complete" but "complementing".
From that follows that you can never tell which of those commercial products is best. It depends on parameters of your tap water. Some of them may work perfectly in London while useless in Copenhagen, and vice versa. The result = given fertilizer + your own very unique tap water.
I daresay that commercial "complete" fertilizers are definitely NOT a way to become advanced aquarium plants keeper. (But with CO2 injection, who cares?)

 

[Elroy]

Hi all,

Thanks for all the answers 👍

There are a lot to be taken into consideration, as usual, when it comes to aquarium, scaping and so on.

In a month time or so I will probably go for Tropica Specialised (Have to use all my Tropica Premium first) - with or without extra NPK from Seachem. Dont really know if it is necessary, when I use the mix?

I guess that Tropica Specialised will turn out quite expensive in the long run, as you mentioned - but I got some liters stored. But later on, I think I will have a look closer at the fertilizer(s) from Solufeed. Must read a lot about it, as I dont kow anything about adding single ingredients, organic and mineral fertilizers, in crumb, mini granular and pelleted forms. Can it be bought in liquid formulation?

But for now its Tropica Premium. Then it will be Specialised (about 70 ml/week)- with or without extra NPK? My tank suffers from nutrition deficiency and a minor outbreak of GSA. What will the amount of extra NPK be, if it comes to that?

Cheers Elroy