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Golden cobra snakehead group tank

I am struggling not to use harder words here. I love animals and reading your journal really hurts me… Sad but true


First off i appreciate your input here and i also appreciate that you're keeping your tone civil, albeit condescending, given your strong feelings on the ethics of my treatment of the fish.


Let me explain with some quotes....


....He gave you a "replacement", you accept that and keep the fish some time in a small tupperware? (to make him more vulnerable for disease or what was the idea?)

And two weeks later you just add this healthy fish to a crashing tank with "melting" fish?

Hmmm, that is not the way animal lovers would react when they have an illusive illness killing everything in their tank i think.

If i would see fish dying like that in my tank i would feel horrible and would do anything to avoid this from happening again.

But you hardly seem touched by this?


it's not that i'm not moved by the pain and suffering of animals, it was simply that the replacement fish was from a different batch so i quarantined him in the tupperware to ascertain if he had the common 'auranti fungus' that lots of them have.


You chose to delete a part of my post in your quote "I put him in into a big Tupperware for 2 weeks." The tupperware may be small by tank standards but it was a 60l restaurant tupperware i use for storing drinking glasses so it's not like the fish couldn't move. As a 7 inch fish he could swim freely in there. My LFS refused to take another sick fish back as they were already housing 1 in their quarantine tank so i that was not an option. i also needed to ascertain if my first batch were all sick with weak immunity to their own fungal infection or whether my tank had columnaris. So in he went. it was a cruel gamble i accept that.


given that all my fish and snakeheads have not developed the same problems this time around it looks with some certainty that the original tanks problem was columnaris.


When this happens in the wild could it be possible that the males just swim away instead of being killed off?

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It would be wise to respect nature more and to avoid situations like this in a closed environment of a fish tank.

There is a reason why this species is advised to be kept alone in a specific tank.

Even with established couples the risks remains that they suddenly kill eachother when they are together in a tank, in the wild they have their "single" periods so never a guarantee that it won't end in a killing spree...


you've drawn a line that satisfies your own ethical position. If you want to take that train of thought to its logical conclusion then the fishkeeping hobby is cruel full stop. boxing animals away from their real natural habitat is unthical. i can accept this. i can also accept where you draw your own line. For me i'm fine with keeping these kind of fish even with their aggressive and moody behaviour to one another. i plan to remove and resell the other 4 should a pair form. I can't promise that they wont go into a big tupperware for a few days. i do have some large water bins so rest assured the size of their temporary home will be ok if the fish have grown some if and when it happens.


From the word go it wasn't adapted to their needs because OP used soil which is not done for the sake of the fish. The size is way to small, filter doesn't suffice and the stones are not ideal, nor were the other inhabitants... I don't see how it was build to their needs at all...

I’m undecided on whether soil was the best choice as substrate but that’s for my own visibility reasons. As far as the fish are concerned it’s great as it’s soft and perfect for digging. Which they do a lot of.

Successful breeders of these fish have done so using sponge filters and I have been assured by them that my filtration is more than enough as the fish have very robust immune systems unless severely stressed or under attack from a deadly bacteria like columnaris.

The stones may not be the best choice but none are particularly sharp. I will report back if they scrape and damage themselves on the stones.

Other inhabitants cherry shrimp and neons were intended to be live food to provide the snakeheads something to hunt immediately upon entering the tank and trigger their appetite in their new home.


A very little reading shows that a "channa"-specific tank needs (I leave the completely unsuited size out of it)


The fish are currently 6 to 7 inches in a 4ft by 1.5ft tank. Adult aurantis grow to 14-15 inches and are suitably homed in a 6ft by 2ft tank. The tank is, relative to their size, spacious for them at their juvenile size.


-temperature should not be constant. They need seasonal variation in temperature, a summer and a winter period is important.


Room temp water here in malaysia is 28c. I’m currently settling the fish at 22c. I’ll be taking it down to around 17c for their winter period late in the year. My tank has always had a chiller.


-Dimly lit tank


aside for taking pictures and video recording the tank lighting runs on level 2 of 6 for my front light and 1 of 6 for the rear light.


-loads of surface vegetation


The entire surface is covered in duckweed.


-they need large plants with enough hiding places


The majority of plants are types of java ferns and jungle vals. It’s already grown thick enough that I can’t find the fish if they choose to hide.


-A tightly closed hood is essential since they are escape artists... (OP has an open tank, no? They didn't bother to escape 'cause they were melting i guess

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)


I have always had a 7mm thick acrylic lid. You see it clearly at the start of my feeding video All pictures are taken with the lid there it’s just not very visible.


-no food during the cold period


Food intake is relative to metabolism. I expect to feed once a week or so at 17c. When kept to 14c as European breeders do, they feed even less frequently, going a month or so between feedings.



So tell me again why this high light and open top (small but essential detail with five of them cramped together) and carefully aquascaped tank with mainly low vegetation, big stones and steep slopes instead of hiding spots is build specific for Channa's?

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i'm sorry but don't hand me a loaded gun by claiming something like that, i might have a triggerfinger

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Quote from Seriously fish:

"Since it is less of an ecological generalist than many Channa species, requires a specific type of microhabitat, has a restricted range and is never found in large numbers it is recommended as a concern for conservation by Goswami et al., 2006., who also noted that it is ‘rampantly fished’ for food and the ornamental trade."

Five in a 120cm tank is not a natural situation one could say after reading that... And since they are under human pressure one should at least show some respect if one can't resist on the urgent need to keep a fish like that no matter what....

See my point?


As of right now I completely disagree with your analysis of my tank. I am however ready and willing to admit exactly where I go wrong with this tank so if problems arise for the reasons you have listed I will definitely admit it and share it in detail as a warning for others who choose to own these fish
 
To pair these fish..... snip

Thanks for doing your reading and replying on my behalf while I was asleep! these fish are fascinating and they require such different keeping conditions compared to the regular fish in the hobby. I’ll capture the non paired fish. I already have a friend who wants them and he’s got an 8 footer on the way.
 
TomatoandEgg might have made some mistakes, everybody does. All that is trying to be achieved in this journal is breeding an awesome fish in a nice setting. The guys just being a maverick, doing things differently, and I'm totally down for that. This journal is a nice change from scapes with tetras etc. It would have been nice to see a tank double the size tho.

Thanks and I haven’t decided on the next tanks dimensions yet but probably 6-7 x2.5ft.
 
you've drawn a line that satisfies your own ethical position. If you want to take that train of thought to its logical conclusion then the fishkeeping hobby is cruel full stop. boxing animals away from their real natural habitat is unthical. i can accept this. i can also accept where you draw your own line. For me i'm fine with keeping these kind of fish even with their aggressive and moody behaviour to one another. i plan to remove and resell the other 4 should a pair form. I can't promise that they wont go into a big tupperware for a few days. i do have some large water bins so rest assured the size of their temporary home will be ok if the fish have grown some if and when it happens.

I would have quoted more but that post was long and involved a lot of deleting. But I thought I would quote the above because I've thought the same before. Taking animals away from there natural habitat is unethical, there's no getting around that. I can relate a lot more than most people because I spent 2yrs in a prison cell, so i know what's its like to have no control over your life. It's not nice but you get used to it, same goes for fish. People can say it's cruel to house a fish in a small tank for its size, and it is, but we all do this hobby because we are animal lovers. Some of us just have more understanding that's all.
 
First off i appreciate your input here and i also appreciate that you're keeping your tone civil, albeit condescending, given your strong feelings on the ethics of my treatment of the fish.

Thans for your reply. Sorry for my late answer but wasn't online before. I'm glad that you don't take it too personal and that you mention me being "civil" :)
Like you say: their still was some emotion in my words but that is mainly because the dying snakeheads really got to me. Even though i try not to get carried away too easy i have to admit that some human behaviour involving animals can get really get under my skin.
I am an animal lover pur sang and have trouble ignoring some situations where animals are treated like they are on death row, with the reasons for this verdict remaining unknown.

it's not that i'm not moved by the pain and suffering of animals, it was simply that the replacement fish was from a different batch so i quarantined him in the tupperware to ascertain if he had the common 'auranti fungus' that lots of them have.


You chose to delete a part of my post in your quote "I put him in into a big Tupperware for 2 weeks." The tupperware may be small by tank standards but it was a 60l restaurant tupperware i use for storing drinking glasses so it's not like the fish couldn't move. As a 7 inch fish he could swim freely in there. My LFS refused to take another sick fish back as they were already housing 1 in their quarantine tank so i that was not an option. i also needed to ascertain if my first batch were all sick with weak immunity to their own fungal infection or whether my tank had columnaris. So in he went. it was a cruel gamble i accept that.

I deleted a part because i thought it was going to be a huge quote otherwise but realise now that the quotes don't really show completely in the posts so no use there... Sorry.. But i didn't do it ignoring the rest of the text. ;)
However I won't reply on this part anymore because i am 100% convinced there are always better options than throwing a fish in a sick tank with melting tankmates. For me no excuse will work here. I'm sorry.
Like you say: you made a cruel gamble (but one with terrible odds i'm afraid), a gambe that should've never been made...

you've drawn a line that satisfies your own ethical position. If you want to take that train of thought to its logical conclusion then the fishkeeping hobby is cruel full stop. boxing animals away from their real natural habitat is unthical. i can accept this. i can also accept where you draw your own line. For me i'm fine with keeping these kind of fish even with their aggressive and moody behaviour to one another. i plan to remove and resell the other 4 should a pair form. I can't promise that they wont go into a big tupperware for a few days. i do have some large water bins so rest assured the size of their temporary home will be ok if the fish have grown some if and when it happens.

I agree that the hobby holds a lot of "cruel" elements.
Make no mistake: for me personally it is not always a blessing to think the way i think. I have indeed a lot (sometimes too much) of ethical problems with some parts of the hobby and honoustly I am much more critical on my own decisions and tanks than on other people their approach.
For instance: I love Otocinclus but I refuse to keep them because of the fact that the majority is wildcaught, their numbers decimated while transported, followed by starving in the shops and eventually frequently ending up in an immature tank...
Reasons enough for me for not doing it.
But that doesn't mean i start discussing with people that do keep those fish. That would be a full time job anyway... :p
Even more: when i see people introducing oto's in a brand new tank, usually followed by the death of the whole bunch, i do have my opinion on that but i mostly remain silent.
If however that same person just goes to the shop to buy a reload without asking questions/finding out the issue than it gets much harder for me to shut up.. :nailbiting:
The same goes for puffers, i adore them but I won't contribute to this part of the trade...
Your channa's too: I think they are great fish! But being mostly wildcaught rules them out. Nevertheless, i would only consider fish like that when i have a suited monster tank at hand....

Thinking this way restricts my options quite a lot but for me personally that is the only way to keep it going.
For myself these principles result in having 6 tanks but only one housing some fish... :(:D
Only a handfull of captive bred and tiny fish in my tank.
I once bought a wildcaught couple of "rare" cichlids. Cycled a "custom" tank for them, did some reading and i expected to be over the moon when i finally got them. But for some reason i couldn't enjoy them when they arrived.
Starting out very shy and jumpy and before i knew I felt guilty during their eintire lifespan, had the idea that they were blaming me when our eyes crossed and when the female eventually died, after a year or so, a new one was not to be found...
Result: i even felt worse for the remainig male. If i would have had a private jet i would have probably brought it back to Africa to get rid of my guilty feel... ;) Hahahah, needless to say that since that day i am a different fishkeeper.. :lol:

And indeed, i do have a big issue with the fact that some people collect different aggressive fish (big ones) and put them together in the small confinement of a glass tank.
Especially when they know beforehand that exploding aggression and/or killing spree is to be expected at a certain moment.
That sounds very cruel to me: taking a wild fish out his environment is one thing but when you lock it up with some fellow-killers in a small space for your own entertainment that is something else, then you cross the line for me.
Keeping killer fish together in a tank is completely different to the wild situation. When couples form in the wild, the "losers" just run off, they don't get killed by the coupling female/male. They feel the aggression, take a beating and accept their loss whilst running away (if needed channa's even leave the pool and go over land in search of more water).
So the argument someone made here that this killing happens in the wild too... Well i don't buy it.;)
There is a lot of hard knock fighting in the animal world when i comes to mating and coupling but not that much with a lethal ending, mostly the loser just runs. As a species we humans hold the record for "love related kills". :p

I’m undecided on whether soil was the best choice as substrate but that’s for my own visibility reasons. As far as the fish are concerned it’s great as it’s soft and perfect for digging. Which they do a lot of.
The stones may not be the best choice but none are particularly sharp. I will report back if they scrape and damage themselves on the stones.

If they dig a lot it seems to mee that the slopes holding the stones won't be that safe (for fish and tank!) but you'll be the second one to know for sure... :)
The first being your fish.. lol ;)

The fish are currently 6 to 7 inches in a 4ft by 1.5ft tank. Adult aurantis grow to 14-15 inches and are suitably homed in a 6ft by 2ft tank. The tank is, relative to their size, spacious for them at their juvenile size.

I still think that their size, even now being relatively small, completely breaks the sense of scale in your scape. For me they are just the wrong fish for this type of tank but that's only my opinion.
I do worry about your carefully scaped bottom and your delicate planting in combo with the fish however. I wonder if they will respect the nice scape as much as we do... :D
I honoustly think these fish would look much better in a different style (and size ;)) of tank. Different bottom, more big plants and a much "wilder" look all round but that's personal i guess..

The entire surface is covered in duckweed.

That is something at least. Some plants with big leaves at surface would be better i think.

I have always had a 7mm thick acrylic lid. You see it clearly at the start of my feeding video All pictures are taken with the lid there it’s just not very visible.

I didn't notice that at all, sorry for that... :crazy:
Nicely hiden i must admit... :thumbup:


To end this "wristkilling" response i would like to add this:
I actually really liked your tank, how you scaped and planted it! So I started the journal admiring the tank. Needless to say that i was quite shocked when i saw it being stocked with those cute monsters... :woot::lol:

Good luck anyhow and i hope things work out!
 
I really appreciate the conversation so thank you for weighing in here. And as I mature with the hobby and life in general I find myself becoming more empathetic towards animals I keep and even animals I eat. I think I’m 20 years I may be a vegan that goes around liberating fish from peoples tanks haha!

Regarding the rocks you can see they actually went in before the soil so they aren’t supported by it. Unless they decide to headbutt the largest rock it should be fine

I’ll try to give some updates in a few weeks hopefully the water situation will be remedied by then.
 
I won't elaborate on what's already been said but I do agree with all the points that Hades bought up.
One issue I think you my have with the soil substrate is that with the Channa digging you are going to end up with constant spikes in ammonia and nitrite.
The filter is already struggling I would say so you need either a much bigger filter or another external in conjunction with that one.
 
I won't elaborate on what's already been said but I do agree with all the points that Hades bought up.
One issue I think you my have with the soil substrate is that with the Channa digging you are going to end up with constant spikes in ammonia and nitrite.
The filter is already struggling I would say so you need either a much bigger filter or another external in conjunction with that one.

do you think it possible that the aquasoil will have leeched out into the water column all the ammonia it initially contains before long? it cant be a an infinite resource right?
 
do you think it possible that the aquasoil will have leeched out into the water column all the ammonia it initially contains before long? it cant be a an infinite resource right?

I think the clay in the aquasoil actually absorbs the ammonia from the water column to feed the plants. So yeah sort of infinite.
 
update time! my water conditions have improved considerably. i tried to reduce the amount of waste in the water during feeding by cutting the worms into smaller pieces. it didn't seem to make a difference.The problem was the snakeheads were being fed too much too fast so before they finished chewing their food they were trying to gulp another piece down. putting in the worms one by one solved the problem.

i was also worried i had no males in the tank. looking at their finnage it was hard to tell. someone on monsterfishkeepers saw my youtube videos and mirrored my own suspicion that i may have only one or no males! I reached out to Paul Jones; A UK based snakehead guru via his YouTube channel. He had a look at my video and said “you have an amazing looking group and scape, they always look female until one doesn't, don't worry about it... they usually pair up when then temp starts to drop around 18*c. you know you'll have a pair when it starts to look like ww3. that is when the males start to change their appearance.“ So hopefully I got some boys in there! Maybe they haven’t started going through puberty yet.

The hierarchy of the tank is establishing itself with a clearly dominant fish who hangs in the middle of the tank. The others hide out under cover only really coming up for air. He chases them off if their eyes meet. No violent skirmishes yet. A couple of frayed fin and the occasional face bite mark the next day. It it’s generally acceptable behaviour. The fish is larger than the rest so I am employing targeted feeding so the other fish get twice as much food. Hopefully they will catch up in size and not be so vulnerable to bullying tactics.

A few days later I went to the fish shop and I saw a load of aurantis most of whom were massive compared to my crew. They ranged from 10 to 17 inches.The guy in the shop assured me the season for aurantis was over. i took the man at his word as i had previously read the same. I was left with a quandary. If my tank has no males then I won’t be able to add any new fish until next season. By which time my fish may be too big and established to accept new males into the group. Alternatively I had been advised by Paul jones to chill out. i couldn't help it, i went to see which male i could buy. There was one male, the smallest in the fish stores tank. In my tank he would be a veritable monster compared to the rest. My guys range from 7.5 to 8.5 inches. This guy was a 9.5 inches no question. I pulled the trigger.

I got home and immediately gave him a little PP bath for 30 minutes. During which I fed the other fish. I figured the new guy needs to let the others catch up so I’ll be target feeding them double his allowance. I also wanted them well fed and docile as I expected some fighting when I add a new male to the group. When I put him in the entire mood of the tank changed. All my fish began flaring to the max and fighting amongst each other. They would sway back and forth by each other’s sides and then snap and bite each other sending one darting off for cover. They ignored the big guy as he slinked around the tank exploring his new surroundings.



30 minutes later the original 6 were calming down towards each other but they all started having a go at flaring and picking a fight with the big guy. My biggest pair were able to tussle for a short time before being chased off by the newbie. The smaller ones would have their entire heads clamped by the new guy and were shut down fast. He stalked the tank for 30 minutes laying a beat down on anyone who challenged him. Then it was calm.i decided i would give them 24 hours to settle down before I step in and remove the new guy. @4 hours later things have settled, theres no more fighting, the big guy seems to have curbed all previous agression in the tank now all the fish are swimming out in the open. So far, he seems to be acting as a police man. The previous dominant fish has taken a back seat!
 
You don’t know the half of it. All they do is move my ferns around each time I put them back in their rightful place. Most of my stems are gone since they like to dig them all up!

My last tank was only nano fish. I know what u mean but the big fish do have an upside, they’re actually interesting.
 
It's a prehistoric jungle with dinosaurs moving through it :D

Add Hygrophila pinnatifida onto wood - this is likely one of the fasted growing epiphyte aquarium plants commonly available

Few stems will anchor sufficiently to withstand digging fish

You just need to get the next (much) bigger tank to start growing in the plants ;)
 
It's a prehistoric jungle with dinosaurs moving through it :D

Add Hygrophila pinnatifida onto wood - this is likely one of the fasted growing epiphyte aquarium plants commonly available

Few stems will anchor sufficiently to withstand digging fish

You just need to get the next (much) bigger tank to start growing in the plants ;)

Yeah I know the next tank is gonna be 7x2.5x2.5 I figure I may build it in a few months and give it around 6 months to grow in! Can’t wait!
 
I figure I may build it in a few months and give it around 6 months to grow in! Can’t wait!
Please start building it now, this looks like a Great Dane living on a balcony......
 
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