DIY Fertilizer Formula Recommendation

[Hanuman]

If you have soft water I suspect that citric acid would do as your iron chelator.

Here is what my tap water looks like in terms of ppm:

In case video is not clear:
mS: 0.3
μS: 317
ppm (0.5): 152
ppm (0.7): 211
I know all above numbers mean the same they are just in a different unit. Just added them all for reader's convenience.

Today I also checked my GH and KH.
7<GH<14 but seems closer to 7 according to the strip.
6<KH<10

It is my understanding test strips are not accurate but that's the only tool I have at my disposal to measure those parameters.

Probably just in the "all-in-one", you only need a very small amount of each.

They work synergistically, the lower pH from the acid causes the potassium sorbate to convert to sorbic acid and that is what inhibits micro-organism growth.

Noted. Looking at James formula he adds 0.5gr of ascorbic acid to a 500ml solution but @X3NiTH adds half of that 0.25gr. What's best?

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

μS: 317

Today I also checked my GH and KH.
7<GH<14 but seems closer to 7 according to the strip.
6<KH<10

It is my understanding test strips are not accurate

That looks fine, they aren't accurate, but you only need a ball-park figure and that suggests that most of the conductivity (and dGH/dKH) is from limestone (CaCO3).

Looking at James formula he adds 0.5gr of ascorbic acid to a 500ml solution but @X3NiTH adds half of that 0.25gr. What's best?

I suspect that it doesn't make much difference. If you want to make sure your solution is acidified you could add 0.5g.

cheers Darrel

 

[Hanuman]

You are a living encyclopedia . Thank you so very much for all.

I though I would also share the analysis of the water in Bangkok by the water company (see attached file). My area is the one I highlighted in orange (Thung Mahamaek). This is the water analysis from June 2019 taken from a 2 day sampling. I had to translate the table headings and parameters with Google Translate so if you see some funky wording don't get worked up

And here is a real time view of Bangkok's water quality:
http://twqonline.mwa.co.th/EN/map.php?type=ph

 

[Hanuman]

Coming back on Jame's DIY TPN+ (3) formula, when I used either Rotalabutterfly or Zorfox calculator I noticed that adding 17g of MgSO4*7H2O adds 0.34ppm Mg and not 0.39 Mg as James states. To reach 0.39ppm I would need to add 19.8g.

Where is this discrepancy coming from and most importantly should I bump the amount to 19.8g or not?

 

[Jayefc1]

To be honest it's that minimal that I dont think it will hurt I just put 5 grams of epson salts in to my tank after every water change so there is less salts in my all in one mix

Cheers
Jay

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

I though I would also share the analysis of the water in Bangkok by the water company

That looks fine, a bit of limestone and not a lot else.

cheers Darrel

 

[Hanuman]

Probably just in the "all-in-one", you only need a very small amount of each.

Hello Darrel,

Going with a 3 solution as we talked earlier (macro, traces, fe), would you mind clarifying the function(s) of the Ascorbic Acid?

My understanding is that its purpose is to acidify/chelate the solution so that there is no interactions between the metal ions and therefore extend the shelf life of the solution. I understand that the Macro solution by itself would not require a chelator unless one decides to do an ALL-in-ONE solution.

However wouldn't the trace solution benefit from the Ascorbic Acid to prevent all traces interacting among themselves or is it only required if one includes Fe in the trace solution? Reason I ask is because I read this:

the story goes.... I made 5L of micro without pre acidifying the water and the zinc addition turned it into a pulped paper consistency, acidifying afterwards then oxidised it and it dropped out of solution.

X3NiTH was only preparing a trace solution so I am wondering why you are suggesting to only adding Ascorbic Acid to the ALL-in-ONE solution but not to the trace solution. Is it because in my context the Fe solution is separate?

Thank you.

 

[Zeus.]

Absorbic acid 1.0g/l and potassium sorbate 0.4g/l helps prevent mold esp when using an auto dosing pump. Works a treat for me.

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

However wouldn't the trace solution benefit from the Ascorbic Acid to prevent all traces interacting among themselves or is it only required if one includes Fe in the trace solution?

You can add ascorbic acid to the trace solution, it won't do any harm.

Reason I ask is because I read this:

X3NiTH said: ....the story goes.... I made 5L of micro without pre acidifying the water and the zinc addition turned it into a pulped paper consistency, acidifying afterwards then oxidised it and it dropped out of solution.

@X3NiTH was only preparing a trace solution so I am wondering why you are suggesting to only adding Ascorbic Acid to the ALL-in-ONE solution but not to the trace solution. Is it because in my context the Fe solution is separate?

In @X3NiTH's case the simple answer is that zinc (Zn) has reacted with one of the anions in solution to form an insoluble compound. The chemistry is probably a lot more complicated than that, mainly because most zinc compounds are soluble.

Whether you need to acidify the trace element solution would depend the composition of the micro-element solution. I always used boric acid (B(OH3)) as my boron source, and never had any problems, so that may have kept the micro-element solution acidic.

Is it because in my context the Fe solution is separate?

The iron is likely to form insoluble compounds, but this would happen fairly slowly as the iron chelate photo-degraded.

cheers Darrel

 

[Hanuman]

(B(OH3))

Is this the same as H3BO3? If so that's what I am using as my Boron source.

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

Is this the same as H3BO3? If so that's what I am using as my Boron source.

Yes, same compound, boric acid.

cheers Darrel

 

[Hanuman]

So I prepared a simple worksheet to allow to calculate weights of each compound depending on the volume chosen. This is nothing fancy and in fact it is fixed as it only works with one formula and one dosage type (1ml for 10Litre). It's merely meant for me to quickly evaluate compound weights without having to calculate things manually each time.

I though I would share this with the community. Special thanks to @dw1305 and @X3NiTH for their patience and support.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/14xHCdQ5NfkgWHl0aQutivsh5Z-Ix023e-1ewIfB2Ytg/edit?usp=sharing

 

[Zeus.]

Hi all, Yes, same compound, boric acid.

cheers Darrel

I was after some then I noticed a already had some on the side for killing ants and other insects

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

I noticed a already had some on the side for killing ants and other insects

I always wondered what "borax" and "roaches" were, when I watched The Mary Tyler Moore show etc back in the 1970's.

It was like references to Baseball, the laughter track implied it was funny, but I had no idea of why or what. Later I found out "sodium tetraborate decahydrate" and "cockroaches" were the answer, and why they went together.

cheers Darrel

 

[Hanuman]

Hello all,

I finally prepared my solutions. Took me close to 2 hours to weight everything and to make sure I was not loosing any of it when transferring to the bottles . I did 3 solutions as advised by @dw1305. 1 litre each.

Solution 1: Macros
Solution 2: Traces
Solution 3: Iron

I only added Ascorbic Acid and Potassium Sorbate to the trace solution. In the future I might only do 2 solutions (macros and traces+iron) just to simplify things.



Before starting and for reference I weighed the equivalent weight of Nikel Sulfate (23mg) in sugar. This was to provide some visual reference of how little the quantities can be. My scale is a 500gr precision scale (0.001g) and can reliably weigh a minimum of 20mg yet I didn't feel confortable doing it this way due to the error specifications of the scale (Repeatability Error ±0.005 g / Non-linear Error ±0.005 g) so I did a serial dilution instead.


Formula I used:

 

[jaypeecee]

If you have trouble sourcing the Seachem Iron then an alternative is to source Ferrous Gluconate itself, it can can come as a powder or as a liquid and you may be able to get this from a Pharmacy, I would go for the powder if you can. You would also need to source Humic Acid (as a dry powder if you can) and mixing in water (RO/DI or distilled water for zero impurities) with the Fe Gluconate should give you a Seachem or Microbe-Lift facsimile.

You don't have to use a Gluconated Iron source, I like to use it because of its low persistence and that it comes mixed with Humic Acid which may provide some natural chelation for the unchelated traces when it all gets mixed up in the bottle. My aim is to have zero EDTA in the tank as it won't play nice with the Fe and let go of it all at the higher KH/pH I run my tank. I boost my Fe Gluconate dose with FeDTPA (11%) instead as it has a little better persistence at higher pH (detectable the day after dosing).

Hi X3NiTH,

I'm pleased to have discovered your post about ferrous gluconate. I started a thread recently about the possibility of ferrous gluconate causing a surface film. See the following:

https://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/does-ferrous-gluconate-cause-a-water-surface-film.58550/

I guess you don't get the surface film. If not, then ferrous gluconate is probably not the culprit in my case. If water parameters have any bearing on this, my tank has pH 6.6 (from CO2 injection), KH5.5dH and GH10dH.

JPC

 

[X3NiTH]

Hi there,

Surface film is not something I have noticed specifically with use of Flourish Comp or other Fe Gluconated traces just added to pure water but it's addition to water in an aquarium could produce an effect because of something else in the tank it is binding with and becoming visible, Humic acids in the mix becoming bound with other large molecules in the water like proteins and oils (from fish food or breakdown of plant material) and becoming an even larger molecule and if its buoyant it becomes visible as a film on the water surface when it clumps together. Increasing surface flow would help to churn that up to make more of the molecules clump together (floculate) become heavier and sink deeper into the water column and hopefully end up in the filter. If I ever have surface film I increase surface agitation, If I need to inject more CO₂ to compensate for increased off gassing then I do, I'd rather the CO₂ not be hindered from leaving the tank or O₂ prevented from entering it because of surface contamination. Hope that helps.

 

[X3NiTH]

@Hanuman

Regarding the Humic Acid supplements I would probably go for the most soluble one prepared from the potassium source. The Fulvic acid supply looks fine for use on its own or ratio blended with the Humic Acid.

I looked into what to do when you can't find a Fe Gluconate source and the solution (pardon the pun) I came up with is try make it yourself.

The Synthesis and Characterisation of Iron(II)Gluconate

Doing it the above way you need a source for Sodium Gluconate and Iron Sulphate plus also the Ion selective resin to remove the Sodium and the Sulphate, the precursor chemicals should be easy to source (easier than FeGluconate hopefully) the resins maybe not so much, a little bit impractical, however since it's just a thermal reaction (boiling) to form the FeGluconate then I had a thought that if you swap out the Sodium Gluconate for Calcium Gluconate and Iron (II) Sulphate then you could forgo the ion exchange resins and filter out the Calcium Sulphate through coffee filter paper. I haven't done this reaction specifically but Calcium Whatever added to Something Sulphate in solution for me has typically ended up as Something Whatever and Calcium Sulphate. Having Calcium Sulphate as a precipitating sedimenting waste byproduct sounds way better (and a whole lot cheaper) than mucking around with ion selective removal resins.

I'm not using Potassium Sorbate for mould inhibition because I'm only putting about a two week supply of traces in the doser container and keeping the rest cool in the refrigerator. The stored traces in the refrigerator are mould and reaction free, ambient room temp is above 20c most of the time so a larger amount of traces sitting for longer in the doser container does produce mould. The Ascorbic I add is for pH stability below neutral to prevent precursors reacting with each other rather than going into solution as a sea of ions.

As a general note to my dosing levels, I'm using RO/DI @ 0TDS before all remineralisation (water change water) my dosing strategy for everything (GH, KH Macro and Micro) doesn't take into account what would be in the water if I were just to use straight tap for water changes. If I were to change to water changes with tap then I would adjust my dosing strategies to compensate for the average of what is measured in the water via a water board report, this would include slight adjustments to the levels of the micro elements with the least reactivity and greatest persistence between water changes, I wouldn't dial down my iron dose since that's the least persistent and find I need to dose that daily regardless to have it present day to day.

🙂

 

[jaypeecee]

Hi there,

Surface film is not something I have noticed specifically with use of Flourish Comp or other Fe Gluconated traces just added to pure water but it's addition to water in an aquarium could produce an effect because of something else in the tank it is binding with and becoming visible, Humic acids in the mix becoming bound with other large molecules in the water like proteins and oils (from fish food or breakdown of plant material) and becoming an even larger molecule and if its buoyant it becomes visible as a film on the water surface when it clumps together. Increasing surface flow would help to churn that up to make more of the molecules clump together (floculate) become heavier and sink deeper into the water column and hopefully end up in the filter. If I ever have surface film I increase surface agitation, If I need to inject more CO₂ to compensate for increased off gassing then I do, I'd rather the CO₂ not be hindered from leaving the tank or O₂ prevented from entering it because of surface contamination. Hope that helps.

Hi X3NiTH,

Thanks for the feedback.

As you say, perhaps the ferrous gluconate is binding with something else in my tank water. It's interesting that, yesterday, I added a dose of TNC Complete to the tank. It appears to have had the effect of starting to break up the surface film in conjunction with increased surface agitation. But it's going to take longer before the film is completely gone.

JPC

 

[Hanuman]

Just wanted to report after a little over a month of using these ferts. So far so good. I haven't seen any algae problems, deficiencies, or new problems appear.
I found an otocinclus dead 2 weeks ago and I think maybe 3 or 4 have died in the course of the last few months. I never found the bodies but I can't count them all. Also 4 amanos have committed suicide in the last 3 weeks by jumping out. I fed their dead bodies to my outdoor pond fish so nothing goes to waste. These amano where actually introduced to my tank a few weeks back from another smaller tank. I just think it's because of the increased population of amano in my tank that they jumped out due to racing between male and females. so I don't think the new fertilizing regime is not to blame so I will keep going on.