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Consistency Deficiency

Plants cannot utilize more micros if phosphorus is not in equivalent supply.
Hi @_Maq_ can you elaborate a bit on this insight... I am reading it as: for a certain amount of x micros (i.e. say you're using 0.5 ppm/wk of Fe as a proxy) you will need a certain amount y of phosphorus... I assume to stimulate uptake... assuming my understanding is correct; is there a rule of thumb - say a ratio - that goes with this in your experience?

Sorry to "barge in" @Hufsa, just thought this bit was very interesting 🙂

Cheers,
Michael
 
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Its definitely flower season here at HufsaCorp™.

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Ive had two more flowers from the Bacopa Colorata, they are really beautiful 🥰

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Once they start the process of opening, it happens quite quickly, and the pretty flowers sadly only last for about 2 days.
If more plants are thinking of flowering, I hope the Rotala Blood Red SG will flower as well, just because it would be neat to see. (No spoilers guys!)

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David Attenborough voice:
The Amazon Frogbits have presented their spidery offering as well.
It is said by the locals to be quite irresistible to the creature known as @MichaelJ (Michaelum jayularis), although the scientific community has yet to understand exactly why.

Here we also see two magnificent specimens of the Blue Climbing Shrimp (Adventurus recklessulosos)
They tirelessly scale these vertical waterfalls in order to graze upon the lush biofilm that forms there. Truly, a testament to their sheer determination :pompus:
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Any chance of sharing a photo of your emersed set up if you're feeling up to it? I have a condition with highs and lows of energy so I know what it's like, so no worries if you want to just repost an older shot 🙂 I suspect you have somewhere in the previous 64 pages, but I gave up looking!
 
Any chance of sharing a photo of your emersed set up if you're feeling up to it?
Can do!
I suspect you have somewhere in the previous 64 pages, but I gave up looking!
I think I actually havent shared much details on the emersed setup, so your search wouldnt have been fruitful 😅 Definitely better to ask than to check a dozen pages worth of various shenanigans 😊
I took some pictures but then ADHD brain got distracted by trimming plants, so ill edit and post the pictures tomorrow 😊


Theres some possibly exciting stuff happening in the main tank as well 😃
For instance theres a bloom of green dust algae, which might not sound like a good thing, but I think it might be. I think its a flush of growth after I unlocked a little piece of the puzzle 🙂
Some of the plants are growing out much less twisted leaves (will get photos of that), and the frogbit is looking a bit better and seems to be shedding a bit less of its roots 😃
Hopefully the plants will continue this improvement :thumbup:
The tank hasnt had a water change after I changed the micros, so because of that those changes have not yet "taken full effect".
I wanted to do a water change sooner, but didnt have the energy for an extra one. But a regularly scheduled one is coming up this weekend, so will get some water changed then and see if the frogbit improves even more :thumbup:
 
ill edit and post the pictures tomorrow
Im a dirty liar it seems 🤭
Not even here to post those pictures now, just to make some excuses before I turn in for the night :shh:
All day got spent wrapping up tiny baggies of various mosses drug-lord-style, to ship to some new homes 😁 Thats fully funded my next plant/stuff order so im pretty pleased 😄
I think @Myrtle might forgive me for the delay also 😊

...where would I put any more plants?
Pfftt, dont come here with those critical questions and planning nonsense :crazy:
Ill just cram them in somewhere, it will be fine! 😎 Theres no such thing as too many plants
 
Procrastinating a journal update was just getting worse and worse, because I need to cover more and more ground the longer I wait 😅
Ive been gleefully traipsing all around the forum instead of sorting out my own journal, but I couldnt bear any longer thinking about Myrtle (undoubtedly) crying while I was doing all of this lollygagging.

She asked to see details about my emersed setup, and to my credit I did immediately start taking pictures of that, before I got too distracted to post them 🤭
I wasnt sure exactly which parts of my emersed setups we were talking about, so I took a few pics here and there.

The recent flower pictures have come from the emersed plants that are in the kitchen aquarium;
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These are the roots of all those stems, a real jungle for the shrimp.
Sorry about the glare, the kitchen is quite bright.

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The kitchen tank is lit by a very fancy setup.
Its two flower pots stacked on top of each other, a lamp-with-a-clamp attached to that, and since the socket in the lamp isnt the right one for the bulb, an elegant socket converter makes sure the bulb sticks out well beyond the shade to ensure any onlookers is blinded by the brilliance of human ingenuity.
Theres a second bulb as well, which is just a socket duct-taped to the Eheim hang on back.
I think I hear Mr Amano crying in heaven. Probably tears of joy :smug:
My budget for lighting this tank was approximately zero, so I just went to one of the stores nearby and picked out the brightest bulbs I could find in a decently high kelvin.
The plants seem to love it though! :thumbup:

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Random houseplant got shoved in here at some point too when I was tidying up.

The reason I put this many stemplants in this tank was because I had very little frogbit to start the tank with, and I wanted plant mass up and running sooner rather than later.
It was my first time "cycling" a tank using the "plants and time" method, and as usual I wanted to go really over the top with the idea and have a load of plants.
So I took a bunch of cuttings from the kitchen table and some trimmings from the main tank, and laid them in shallow water on top of a mesh sheet that I had fastened to the tank.
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I just grabbed a bit of synthetic string and tied one suction cup to each corner.
If I were to do this again I would go for a larger size mesh. Something like the plastic egg crate light diffuser things that people use to put below their hardscape.
The reason for this is that the kuhlis took a liking to hanging out on top of the mesh, and every time I change the water, the mesh is suspended in the air.
I really didnt like not knowing if the kuhlis had made their way out of the plants in time or not, it made water changes very stressful.
So I would recommend a mesh that is generously large, enough to let any fish through.

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This is the mini greenhouse the cuttings originated from. It has a clear lid that ive drilled some additional holes in.
It was right after this picture that I realised it would be a hassle to try to get the lid back on again without squishing any of the stems, so I started trimming those instead of going back to post the pictures on the forum.
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Big trim done. I started the stems in here with the adjustable lid bits almost closed, but as they have matured ive gradually opened them more until eventually just taking them off.
You can see the extra drilled holes in the sides of the lid here too, those are surprisingly important for air circulation. It could probably use a few more, I might add five more on each side when I get around to it (TM).

Now for an update on the frogbit:
This was the frogbit back on 24.05;
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New micros were made 25.05. The tank didnt get a water change at the same time, so it will have taken a bit longer than usual for the changes to take effect.
Already looking better on 03.06.
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Then from today, 10.06.
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As you can see the leaves are no longer as bumpy and have a more normal shape instead of being elongated and a bit deformed.
Raising B and Zn seem to have been an improvement, but im reluctant to declare myself entirely certain I understand it fully.
Theres still something more the frogbit wants, so ill be trying a few tweaks again next time the micros run out.
I do think it was a nice step in the right direction though, and its not only the frogbit who thinks so.

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Glandulosa and a few other plants started putting out much less twisted leaves relatively soon after the change was made.
This one and a few other species have always been really twisty for me, so im really encouraged by this change.
Ive written "flat" in the picture but it really could say "mostly flat". But if one compares it to some leaves almost doing a 180, then its pretty flat in my eyes.

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This is the kind of immense twisting and curling that ive been having on my buce.
The left and center parts are two "fully formed" 🥴 leaves, and the right hand blorp is a new leaf that hasnt unrolled yet. Not sure it will ever unroll, ive seen a pattern of the buces trying with new shoots, new shoots die, trying again, and so on.
The growth on the buces has been so outrageously deformed that it had to be something other than a small sneeze in CO2 stability.
Thats why ive been going down the trace rabbit hole again, to see if I could divine a pattern from the symptoms my plants have been displaying.
Im fairly familiar down there now and on a first name basis with the white rabbit, so im not quite as likely to lose sight of the path any more 😉
Ive been looking at Boron in particular, since adequate supply of Boron is critical for proper leaf expansion.
There are a lot of "moving parts" (things that interact with each other) in a planted tank, and several things can and probably are going on at the same time.
There is overlap of many symptoms, and its all too easy to convince yourself of something unlikely if you set out to prove yourself right by reading more.
I suggest trying to prove yourself wrong as much as possible. This makes it more likely that you dont end up just chasing ghosts around pointlessly and wasting your time.
And stay away from those plant deficiency illustrations. They are way too simplified to be useful and more likely to send you down the wrong path.

This is some of what Mineral Nutrition of Higher Plants has to say about Boron:
Symptoms of B deficiency in the shoots are noticeable at the terminal buds or youngest leaves, which become deformed, and depending upon species, may become discolored and die. Internodes are shorter, giving the plants a bushy or rosette appearance. In some species, interveinal chlorosis may occur while misshaped leaf blades are common. The differences among species in expression of B deficiency is not well understood, but may reflect differences in species response to the inhibition of cell wall formation and the changes in cellular metabolism. Many plant species accumulate large amounts of phenols under B deficiency which can result in increased concentrations of oxidized phenols and other reactive species which can cause cell death. Other plant species respond to B deficiency with a cessation of shoot growth and deformed leaf blades, but do not exhibit chlorosis or necrosis, presumably because toxic metabolites did not accumulate.
Boron deficiency causes a wide range of anatomical, physiological and biochemical symptoms. These include inhibition of apical growth, necrosis of terminal buds, reduction in leaf expansion, breaking of tissues due to brittleness and fragility, abortion of flower initials and shedding of fruits. Most anatomical deficiency symptoms have been associated with cell wall abnormalities and the numerous physiological and biochemical effects observed under B deficiency have been interpreted as secondary effects of cell wall damage. In plants, elevated (mM) concentrations of B are toxic. Boron toxicity reduces shoot growth, primarily in expanding tissues, followed by chlorosis, beginning at the older leaf tips and margins, before finally causing necrosis. The mechanism of B toxicity is unknown.
Interestingly Boron toxicity symptoms are a little bit similar to deficiency symptoms. Its something to keep in mind since Boron has the narrowest range between deficiency and toxicity of the traces.
But enough about that for now.

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Like ive mentioned in one of my previous posts, the change to micros induced a significant bloom of green dust algae.
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I think I remember an older thread that dealt with an iron deficiency, and every time the original poster would increase iron dosing as advised by Darrel, there would be a flush of GDA.
The plants would look better, but the GDA scared the OP and they lowered the dosing again. And the plants looked worse again.
Somehow that sort of stuck with me, especially since green algae is "the plants we dont want", as Darrel might say.
They're very similar in requirements and like many of the same things. This is also why they can be hard to get rid of.
So when there was a flush of GDA I didnt particularly mind. In fact I think GDA is one of the nicest algae types, because most critters love to eat it.
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GDA soon covered even the roots of the frogbit and the dying BBA in the tank with a nice coat of green.
I should note the roots of the frogbit have been doing better lately.
Before I changed the micros the roots were just rotting and falling out.
There has been a flurry of new root growth on the buces too, so it could have something to do with the tweaks.
Ive hinted at this before, but I think I might have been looking at my "Sand and root problem" the wrong way.
I started suspecting it when the frogbit also started struggling with their roots.
The frogbit roots arent anywhere near the sand. So the sand would not be doing anything to them. But they were struggling none the less..
It might be that its not a sand and root problem, but a plant and root problem. It might not be anything to do with the sand at all.
Its too early to say anything more about it for now though. I need more time to observe the plants.

Im 500% sure ive forgotten several things I was supposed to include in this update, but ill probably-maybe-perhaps remember them later on.

Ill round off with some mossy details :geek:
I have concluded that Hooker Moss (/Rare Moss) does not like to grow emersed, at least not at my house.
Every time I try to touch a portion of this moss that has grown emersed, almost every single leaf falls off.
It has happened before and it was so strange back then that I didnt know what to make of it.
Now it happened again, and I dont think I can keep growing this moss emersed if its going to do this every time I try to sell some of it.
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Submersed growth of this moss or stems that have grown right up against the container walls (so much wetter) dont shed the leaves.
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I have concluded that its not very suitable for emersed culture the way that I am doing it, and from now on I will only keep it in the tanks.

My Mini Christmas Moss has had sporocarps (?) for a while, and I took a few pictures of them cause I figured UKAPS might enjoy.
Im wondering if the small thin white ones might be the male bits?
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Ill be back soonventually (when I can remember the stuff I forgot to include) 😁
 
Just a quick little update (no pictures or anything but oh well)
The main tank is doing really well 😊
Almost all the plants are growing pretty nicely and I am happy when I look at the tank for the first time in a while 🥰
Theres a minor growth symptom on a few select plants that I think I can get straightened out with one or two small tweaks to the next micro batch, but other than that the plants seem to be feeling much better now after the adjustment to B and Zn.
Ive also been monitoring CO2 injection / PH profile closely over the last couple of weeks, and the injection rate is very stable.
The AutoAqua ATO is doing a good job keeping the tank topped up to the right level as well which undoubtedly helps. I really appreciate its assistance.
We have really hot weather here as of late (please send help i am dying), so the fans that are cooling the tank are running quite often to keep the tank at 24 celcius.
Im having to refill the top up water container quite often (I havent been filling it all the way for safety).
I was using battery water (demineralised) for this up until today, but with the rate of evaporation I cant keep paying for those.
RO water is not as commonly sold in Norway as it is in the UK, probably since our tap water is already quite soft.
A four liter jug of battery water costs about 3.68 gbp, so it does add up when you use a lot.
Perhaps I should consider adjusting the Inkbird to target 25 degrees instead while this dreadful heat is going on. That might cut down on water usage. Yeah I think ill do that.
Ill make sure the CO2 is still hitting the target with a slight temperature increase.

The quarantine tank in the kitchen is a little bit up and down.
The fish have been through the dewormer weeks and the otos are no longer itchy, but the otos dont seem quite right to me at the moment, and now the pauci corys have what looks like the beginnings of internal infection.
Im trying to make them some medicated Repashy but the gels just wont set and ugh its a bit of a mess.

When I have more time and energy I have some exciting things to share from the main tank, so ill be back to post about that later on 😊
 
Funny… coincidently I was looking at B this week, after someone suggested I boost it up.

Apparently, normal concentrations in surface freshwater range from 0.1 and 0.5 ppm, but it goes up to a few full ppm depending on proximity to the sea and geological formations.

My micro mix adds 0.01 ppm only. I use tap water, so it really is a roulette. I read that B deficiency induces Ca and Fe deficiencies, with all the curling and whitening. I’ve been having curling issues since forever, despite trying all kinds of different Ca, Mg and K ranges, so this B thing got me interested.

It is reassuring that you are seeing improvements. Yesterday I added 0.1 ppm from my daughter’s eye washing boricated water and I’m watching closely, maybe a little too anxiously…
 
My micro mix adds 0.01 ppm only. I use tap water, so it really is a roulette. I read that B deficiency induces Ca and Fe deficiencies, with all the curling and whitening. I’ve been having curling issues since forever, despite trying all kinds of different Ca, Mg and K ranges, so this B thing got me interested.

It is reassuring that you are seeing improvements. Yesterday I added 0.1 ppm from my daughter’s eye washing boricated water and I’m watching closely, maybe a little too anxiously…
Oh I was about to write a reply to your journal a few days ago I think, but then I thought people might get angry if I go around too much preaching about Our Lord and Savior Micronutrients :lol:
Do you have access to a reliable tap water report? Thats a really good place to start, knowing what youre working with makes things a lot easier.
I think ive been having issues because norwegian tap water is more or less RO with some CaCO3. The water supply report makes this quite clear.
I know ive said this before but nobody took it very seriously, so im saying it again.
I do believe this is the reason ive been having more issues with plant growth than my british fellows, who have "a little bit of everything plus the kitchen sink" in their tap water.
Its much harder to run out if youre already starting with everything.

I think you do need to stop messing around with sometimes dosing and then not dosing anything for your plants though @LMuhlen . Quite a few of them look chlorotic to my eye.
You want to feed them consistently, if you need to tweak what or how much based on what your tank needs then do that, but whatever you do, do it consistently. Theres a reason my journal is named like it is :geek:
Plants can adjust their uptake of nutrients based on availability, take up more when the supply is low, or take up less when there is too much.
But like anything this probably requires some energy or at least time to change. So if they go from lots to none to lots all the time they wont be able to grow well cause they keep having to readjust.

Speaking of some heresy, my plants improved under the latest increase in B and Zn, but I did predict Cu might become an issue after I fixed the former two.
Liebig doesnt rest, and apparently me loudly declaring that I didnt want to play nutrient deficiency whack-a-mole all the way down the trace list has done nothing to change that this seems to be happening anyway :lol:
There was an improvement from the B&Zn change, the plants grew better, and then they seemingly hit another limit of sorts, and I observed different twisting to before.
Since they need time to fully adjust I have just been keeping an eye on it, but this new thing persists.
I wont know if im on the mark with Cu or not until I try it, so I have to wait to see the results before I get too smug about anything 😁
If I even get that far before they burn me alive for witchcraft 🧙‍♀️🔮
 
Do you have access to a reliable tap water report? Thats a really good place to start, knowing what youre working with makes things a lot easier.
No… very far from it. They only measure boring things like turbidity and some sort of bacterial parameter. After inquiring a little harder, they gave me a hardness value, but no idea if it’s meant to be carbonates or Ca or Ca and Mg, and what the actual measuring unit is, since it is common to use CaCO3 equivalents and other such nonsense, but it wasn’t specified.

as for my frequent changes, I understand they aren’t ideal. But it has been a long road of subtle tests so far and that hasn’t made anything clearer, so now I’m hoping for a magical answer in the form of some more intense shaking of things.

As for B, what caught my interest is this supposedly high normal value for rivers and such. Also the widespread statement that B is the most important micro element for crop deficiencies world wide. I kind of assumed my tap water may contain most micros, and after a couple of months not dosing any but Fe I’m mildly reassured this might be the case, since not much changed. But if my comercial micro mix adds only a spit of B compared to normal natural values and if my water has no B for whatever reason, and B is really all about causing Ca and Fe deficiencies, that seems like a puzzle in the verge of being assembled. Like many other theories before.
 
No… very far from it. They only measure boring things like turbidity and some sort of bacterial parameter. After inquiring a little harder, they gave me a hardness value, but no idea if it’s meant to be carbonates or Ca or Ca and Mg, and what the actual measuring unit is, since it is common to use CaCO3 equivalents and other such nonsense, but it wasn’t specified.'
I see. Well, theres not much you can do with that I think.
Do you guys drink your tap water? (I know not all countries do this). If yes, does it taste bad or good, neutral, in your opinion? It might seem silly but it could give you a really coarse indication of how much and what kind of minerals is in the water.

as for my frequent changes, I understand they aren’t ideal. But it has been a long road of subtle tests so far and that hasn’t made anything clearer, so now I’m hoping for a magical answer in the form of some more intense shaking of things.
Random wild changes are the last thing thats gonna give a magical answer unfortunately, I have a long and illustrious career in making too many changes or going about it slightly wrong, just ask any of my journal readers 😁
Im confident to say im quite the expert at what not to do at this point, as evidenced by my 65 page long journal.
Yes, if a current situation is bad then moving very slowly away from that will mean things are not getting better very fast.
But at the other side of it, if youre making too many changes and they are happening too fast, you have no idea which ones mean anything or are needed at all. So a balance must be struck.
Starting with what most people do and then working from there is a good place to begin.

As for B, what caught my interest is this supposedly high normal value for rivers and such.
Ehhh I dont know, I would be very careful to draw conclusions from this that high boron is good, just because it might be measured somewhere in nature, doesnt mean our fancy-pants plants are growing there, or even growing well.
Boron is very toxic. Just ask @xZaiox about high boron, he tried it for his plants and they did not like it.
Also the widespread statement that B is the most important micro element for crop deficiencies world wide.
This is because (as I far as I can remember) Boron is very easily leached from soil. So when it rains, the Boron joins up with the water and "runs away" from the dirt/soil. Which is why they have to keep adding it back.
Our tanks which are a relatively closed system and completely underwater should definitely not be assumed to be the same as a plant growing in air outside on a patch of soil. There are a lot of things that are different there.
I kind of assumed my tap water may contain most micros, and after a couple of months not dosing any but Fe I’m mildly reassured this might be the case, since not much changed.
Did you have chlorotic and pale plants all along then? Im not convinced, I think you just havent yet seen the change, but im pretty sure I see them.
But if my comercial micro mix adds only a spit of B compared to normal natural values
No, dont compare to wherever you found those values. Like I said, boron gets washed out from the soil, and ends up in the water.
It would make sense then that the water is higher in boron in some places, but that does not automatically mean its a good thing!
For example, iron is very very common in nature, but it is toxic in high amounts for the plants. So the plants have spent millions of years evolving to be able to avoid taking up all this iron, thats how important it is for them.
That its "there" doesnt mean its necessarily good for the plants. They might wish it wasnt there, we dont know. We should be careful to assume that natural = good.

and B is really all about causing Ca and Fe deficiencies
That seems like a gross oversimplification. Where did you read this? And was it about aquatic plants, growing in an aquarium?
that seems like a puzzle in the verge of being assembled. Like many other theories before.
Man I dont know what to tell you.. The "eureka!" feeling is often a bit of a liar..
This I have learned because I have been there many times already.
If youre feeling like you've finally figured it all out, and then you try to apply it and reality hits you in the face like a brick wall when it doesnt do what you thought it did. ..But you felt you had it all pieced together.
Thats the rabbit hole disease 😉
 
Boron is very toxic. Just ask @xZaiox about high boron, he tried it for his plants and they did not like it.
Yup. Attached images of what 0.2ppm of boron did to my limnophila hippuridoides. I saw that hydroponic formulae often use upto 0.5ppm of boron, so I figured "hey, if terrestrial plants can take much, surely aquatic plants could take half of that?"
I've messed around with fert dosing quite a lot over the last few years. I prefer leaner dosing to richer dosing now.
 

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Its time for an update innit :geek:

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Ive been thread algae free for a little while now and its soo nice 🥰
The maintenance requirement for the tank just plummeted immediately as soon as the algae was gone, it really was a ton of work to constantly be fighting that algae.
As a result ive been enjoying my tank a whole lot more 😍
How, right? Well I did end up using API Algaefix. I have mixed feelings about that. It was part of the original 1-2-punch-ish plan. First removing any potent nitrogen source, which didnt seem to help any, and then also get plant growth better, which also didnt seem to deter this kind of green thread algae. So when I had the opportunity to move the fish out of the tank I did that and proceeded with the plan to use the algaecide while they were safely away.
Since there are many reports of fish death when using this substance and I had access to some literature that gives figures in ppm for various lifeforms, I started the dosing very low and worked my way up gradually, looking to find the lowest effective dosage. I was initially quite confused because the recommended dose of API Algaefix gives 1.2 ppm (Polixetonium chloride / Busan 77 etc), and some of the references I found indicated a much lower dosing should be required. Something approximately like: "diatoms and cyano at ~0.1ppm, green algae at ~0.01ppm, and vascular plants at ~1ppm."
So why would they (API) advise dosing 1.2 ppm? I pondered. Regardless I was determined to start low and work my way up.
I diluted a small amount of Algaefix from its original 4.5% strength to 0.1% strength to give me more control over the dosing.
I also carefully calculated the actual water volume of the tank, using the inside measurements of the glass panels, subtracting the entire substrate depth and then adding the volume of the two canister filters and one reactor I have. This gave me 214 liters of water. Its very important to dose based on your ACTUAL water volume if using this.
I started the dose at 0.01 ppm and observed little to no effect.
The instructions have you dose every three days, so the next time I dosed closer to 0.1+ ppm (was 0.14 ppm in practice). The reason I went a bit higher than 0.1 ppm was just because that was the last of the diluted solution I had.
Im not 100% certain but I seem to recall the slimy thread algae looking a little less smooth than it usually did after this, and a bit more curly and wooly. A bit different in texture feel as well.
Third dosing was closer to the order of magnitude that the API dosing is. I debated between 0.5 or 0.8 but went for 0.8 ppm. This was very effective.
The thread algae in the tank stopped growing immediately and eventually died fully and completely fell of the plants after a few repeat treatments. The plants and mosses especially (the latter I was most worried about) seem completely unfazed.
Since the tank was empty I dont know how livestock would have felt about this, but the mini-ramshorn* type pest snails have been unaffected. Note that there is absolutely no doubt that this kills shrimp however.
(*I see these referred to as Gyraulus acronicus, Planorbis sp. and other names, im not sure what is the actual correct latin name for these.)

So it appears that this algaecide is indeed very effective at removing thread algae, even below the suggested dose. I suspect now that the reason the practical dose and the scientific literature reference doses differ so much is because of how "dirty" an aquarium is. I suspect that putting, lets say 0.1 ppm, into a sterile jar containing a small bit of algae covered moss, might produce different results than dosing 0.1 ppm into an aquarium system full of dirt, detritus, numerous surfaces and all manner of other things the chemical could react with. So it could be that the effective dose is influenced greatly by how many other things there are to react with in the water it is dosed into.
Its possible that I could have dialed back the dose from 0.8 slightly, to find the absolute minimum dose for my particular system. But the algae was dead and gone and I saw no reason to continue dosing any more.

Now begins the really interesting part though, the true test. Will the algae come back?
Pouring "chemicals" into a tank until stuff starts to die isnt very hard, almost anyone can do that.
As far as I see it, I have won this round of battle, but have I won the war? That remains to be seen.

The big question is if the slimy thread algae will just come right on back again.
If it does, I think that could mean two things;
One; that the underlying cause was not fixed well enough, and the system is still supportive of too much thread algae growth.
If this species of green thread algae is in airborne spores or tap water, it will find its way back into the tank, and flourish again if the system has an opening for it.
Or two; if the green thread algae is not in airborne spores or tap water, but is reintroduced through water from the kitchen tanks, mossy cups or plants from shops, etc etc.
And it would then flourish again if the system has the right conditions for it.
Those are two ways I can imagine it coming back.

If it doesnt come back, I wont know if it was because this algaecide allowed the plants to regain the upper hand and the algae couldnt reestablish itself,
OR because the thread algae wasnt allowed to reintroduce itself to my system, and therefore had no chance to grow at all.
The latter would indicate that this particular species of green thread algae is something that could be avoided with thorough quarantine protocols, kinda like Planaria and things like that.
Not knowing fully which one is something I have known for a while I would have to live with.
Its a shame because I like knowing things. But the sheer relief and renewed joy that this (possibly temporary break from the algae) has given me, has definitely been worth not knowing.

Im very interested to see what happens from here on. Dosing this stuff on the regular is not an option. I dont think I can perform the mental gymnastics to convince myself of that even if given enough time.
So if it comes back and I believe it hasnt been reintroduced from "contaminated" stuff from the kitchen, then I will need to continue to search for a way to defeat it. We shall see wont we :geek:
For now I am very much just enjoying the moment 🥰


But now onto something else 😊
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I have toyed with the idea of having ramshorn snails for the first time. I got a few spotted ones for the kitchen tank, and have developed a decent population of the blue spotted ones over the past few months.
I had heard that ramshorn snails are better at eating BBA than other snails, but I havent been able to conclude about this myself yet. But it got my interest in them.
One thing I noticed however, is how many holes the frogbit has gotten in the tanks containing snails. Very moth-eaten, obviously and conspicuously eaten by something.
I suspected the ramshorn snails immediately, not just because there is conflicting information online about whether they may turn on healthy plants.
But also because all the other species of snails I have had before for many years, and never experienced this issue whatsoever.
So could it be the downside to ramshorn snails? That they might be harder on algae, but they are also harder on plants?
Different snail species have different tooth structure and strength, meaning they have different potential to do damage to live plant tissue.
Perhaps the all the critters were just not being fed enough as a whole, and something else was responsible for the damage, or a combination of species.
I didnt know if this was an effect of not enough food, or if this was something that was done despite getting enough to eat.
I am not interested in having critters that eat plants at this point in my life though, so I needed to find out for sure.
But there is of course this whole pesky "innocent until proven guilty" thing.. :meh:🤔

Cue the Trial of the Snails.

I painstakingly separated Physella acuta (Bladder) snails and Ramshorn snails into two buckets.
Both buckets were furnished with mature oak leaf litter that by all accounts should make decent food for snails.
The ramshorn population was slightly bigger, so they got slightly more oak leaves in an attempt to mimimize the difference in that variable.
This isnt a double-blind-placebo-controlled-peer-reviewed-study though, just a 🦇💩crazy lady with two buckets of snails 🤪:lol: So if I say its close enough for me then its close enough!
The buckets each got a handful of non-eaten frogbit, and got fed algae based fish food every few days. In other words, the snail subjects were not starving.

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Ramshorn bucket

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Bladder snail bucket

I gotta say, its not looking too good for the Ramshorns 😬
The Ramshorns have been caught in the act sitting under the leaves and visibly eating them, and the frogbit in the Physella bucket is pristine in comparison.
Based on this I dont think im gonna keep the ramshorns, even though they are pretty.
Any potential benefit the ramshorns might have against BBA is not really enough to counterbalance that they seem to quite like eating frogbit.
And I dont know which other plants they might also find too tasty to resist. So thats a bit of "evidence" from me, in case anyone else is also curious about ramshorn snails.

The Physella snails do a really good job of eating dead and decayed leaves without damaging any plants, so are the obvious and safe choice for me, plus I find them rather pretty in an understated sort of way.
Actually, after I removed all of these "pest" snails from the kitchen tank, the kitchen tank suddenly became a lot messier!
Now there is a lot of decaying plant material and dead leaves floating around that no one is doing anything about.
Snails may poop a lot, but their poop is much more broken down than a dead leaf. Id much rather have snail poop particles that can get carried to a mechanical filter I can clean, than whole bits of plant rotting in the water column.
I think people may seriously underestimate how much cleaning "pest" snails do. I certainly wouldnt be without them!


The kitchen quarantine tank started out very good, with the new fish being separated from the main system while undergoing anti-parasitic treatment.
Then things took a minor detour when the small groups of fish from the main tank joined the kitchen tank.
Having the main tank empty was essential for getting the courage to try out the algaecide without any innocent bystanders potentially getting hurt.
The anti-parasitic treatment weeks were complete, and aside from a lingering issue with the corydoras pauciradiatus, most of the fish were in good condition.
Then Life™ happened, and everything fell into chaos.
Corydoras hastatus, my favorite fish species that ive been looking for for years, appeared on the stockist list. Not many and the shops would have to order fast.
I was freaking out. The quarantine tank was full of fish and the pauciradiatus werent quite right, I didnt want to put any new fish in there. Oh god where would I put these?
The adult part of my brain (which is about the size of a raisin) tried to reason with the other part which was mostly incoherently screaming.
This is not a good time. We should sit this one out, not order any fish.
...But no way to know when they might appear again on the list. Could be a few weeks. Could be a few more years :nailbiting: Ack!
I placed an order through a shop a decent distance away, because they were able to give me a very good price on a group.
40 Corydoras hastatus, a really big group because dwarf corys sometimes arrive very poorly, and hastatus can be very shy and do best in larger groups.
The fish were gonna arrive in a week, and I was panicking trying to set up a second quarantine tank for them on such short notice. I could barely sleep from the worry and I am in the middle of a period of a lot of fatigue, so I couldnt get things up and running fast enough. And the worry was eating me inside, setting up a tank on such short notice. There would be no way to know that it was cycled/mature enough to accept so many fish without water quality issues. And the last thing I wanted was to lose any of these precious guys. They are so rare and to finally get them again.
After a few days of internal screaming it sank in that they had to go in the main tank.
Definitely not a part of the quarantine plan, but there was no other option.
A planted tank with a large water volume and mature (empty but mature) system with a ton of fast growing plants was a much much safer option than ANYTHING I could have thrown together last minute.
Screw the quarantine protocol, it will just have to be done!

According to stuff I was taught on norwegian groups about cycling, and the "traditional" view of cycling, the main tank should no longer "be cycled".
The impression one is given is that practically all the "filter bacteria" just clutch their pearls and die off en masse within hours after the last fish is removed from the tank.
From being on UKAPS for a while I knew some of what I was previously taught is incorrect, and especially that "a cycle" is not as black or white as many people see it.
But I didnt know to what extent my main tank would still be "cycled", or in much better words, mature enough to accept some fish.
It hadnt had fish in it for a while, and I havent been using Urea or Ammonia based fertilizer lately either, which might have emulated some fish stocking.
And I was gonna try to wing it by putting 40 most precious little fishies in there :nailbiting:
I was terrified but there wasnt much I could do other than prepare to do a lot of water changes if necessary.
The day arrived and I drove to pick up the fish.
Some bad news, the stockist had run out and they had only sent 23 fish. One of the 23 was even a tetra that looks like hastatus.
Disappointed in that, but happy that I got some at all, and I felt fortunate that they seemed quite perky. I comfort-shopped some more Boraras brigittae to help make them less shy as a smaller group, and headed home with them.
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I had almost forgotten why I love these fish so much. They are like little hummingbirds flittering and hovering through the water.
Their cool bluish grey color is beautiful against the plants and the black eyes make them absolutely adorable. 500% worth it.
They are wild caught so definitely need to go through a course of anti-parasitic treatments eventually, but in this case I dont mind spending the extra money to treat this large tank volume, it will be worth it in the end.
So the quarantine situation is a mess. But I think it will all get to a good point in the end, as long as I take my time and do things thoughtfully. For now my focus has been on giving them plenty of food and clean water.
Ive been measuring the important values like ammonia and nitrite with freshly opened test kits, and so far no readings despite feeding these little guys quite heavily.

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One of the hastatus was sideways in the bag on arrival, but came the right way round during the gradual drip acclimatization.
Its still looking a little shabby at this moment, but from what I can tell its just this individual fish thats starting from a really poor place and has an uphill battle ahead of it.
The other fish are in really bright health for the journey they've been through, and dont appear to be struggling with anything.
So im just making sure some food lands near the poorly one and monitoring it for now. I suspect that the matter is out of my hands, beside providing what I can.
I think the rest might be up to the fish and its immune system to fight its way back, or not. If it becomes worse looking I will help it pass quickly instead of struggling its way out.
(I hate euthanizing fish, but sometimes its really the kindest option. Maybe I am transferring some of that fishes suffering over to me, and thats why it feels so terrible. But enough about that 🙂)


Since the introduction of the Corydoras hastatus and the new Boraras brigittae a lil while ago went so well (im really impressed at the stability of this planted tank),
I pulled the trigger just the other day on a group of Otocinclus sp. that I have been eyeing in one of the shops for a while.
That shop charges a bit more than the average for otos, but these specific ones have a really nice spotty mottled pattern to their backs that I think is really attractive.
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Ive been interested in Otocinclus identification lately, and as some of you already know, actual "Otocinclus affinis" is a species that is very rarely offered for sale.
Shops tend to use this name for basically any oto, but it would be much more correct to label the fish as "Otocinclus sp." if they are unsure which one it is. Some stores are better at this than others.
Wholesalers tend to just send whatever kind of oto they have in stock, and sometimes a mix of species in the same shipment too. Exporters are not always much better, so its a bit chaotic all around.
The two most common otocinclus species in the aquarium trade are Otocinclus vittatus and macrospilus, but its not unheard of to find rarer species for sale as well under the general otocinclus label if one knows what to look for.
It doesnt help the matter any that a very large percentage of otocinclus photos on the internet are unintentionally mislabeled.
I think this group is likely to be macrospilus.

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A little group photo of the hastatus, they are so cute when they shoal together, but being wild caught they are still a bit skittish and get frightened when they see movement outside the tank.
Im hoping they will get more accustomed to that as time passes 😊
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Im gonna have to get this post online now, its taken me three days to put it together, not because its particularly long but im just not very productive these days 😅
Hope you enjoy the pictures, I will keep trying to take better ones as the fish get more used to the camera!
Im off to feed the fish 🥰
 
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Hi all,
One of the 23 was even a tetra that looks like hastatus.
I got a Serrapinnus(Odontostilbe) / (Cheirodon) kriegi like that. Just the one and it turned into a real terror, before eventually eating itself to death, but it did school with the Corydoras hastatus initially and it was really difficult to pick out.

I believe that Hyphessobrycon elachys is better behaved and that Aphyocharax paraguayensis is another terror, so it will be interesting to see what happens. There are a lot of similarly patterned Tetra species.

cheers Darrel
 
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I believe that Hyphessobrycon elachys is better behaved and that Aphyocharax paraguayensis is another terror, so it will be interesting to see what happens.
I had indeed hoped it was an elachys. If it appeared unbothered about only having hastatus buddies I would probably have kept that, although I didn't want to get any more elachys as I have seen them in real life and they are a bit too active for my personal taste. Not a bad thing objectively, I just prefer fairly gently moving fish and the elachys males were putting on a big show pretty much constantly.

Unfortunately it turned out to be a young Aphyocharax...
It lasted about 15 minutes in the tank, where it promptly tried to chomp the tail ends off of several Boraras before I had seen quite enough and removed it :meh:
 
Ive had a bit of a day and my tank is in danger, and I dont know how I can save it or if I can at all.
The building caught fire earlier today and things went from 0-100 pretty fast.
Not a lot of minutes passed between noticing a burnt smell and running through smoke and climbing out of the burning building through a neighbors window. I got the man and dog out first before going back for the birds and one of our neighbors. The animals luckily seem to be ok. But there was no time or way to bring the fish.

Currently we are not allowed into the building, and the power and water is shut off.
My main worry is oxygen to the fish and system, if the power remains closed off for more than a night.
I have called anyone I can think of but there is no more to be done today. I have to see if I can get fire dept or police to help me maybe hook up some emergency power source tomorrow.
I hope the fish and plants will survive this.

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Tank right before we had to leave (we were allowed to quickly get essentials).
I hope this isnt the last time I see it in this state..
 
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