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Consistency Deficiency

Interesting point, could you elaborate please @_Maq_ ?
I'll mostly repeat myself.
For one reason or another, it seems that in tanks - unlike in natural waters - we can dose minerals (mostly N, P) in amounts vastly exceeding those in nature without the same negative results - algae and cyanobacteria domination leading to death of everything else. I'm short of explanation, it's a mystery to me. Myself, I keep on the lean side. Yet I can't deny that many people dose EI and similar amounts, and their tanks prosper. Therefore, I believe that excess amounts of minerals are not the source of problems per se. They can, and surely do, contribute to troubles once they appear.

Why, then, sometimes everything goes wrong? Even in lean tanks like those of mine? It seems that all the bad arrives in one: plants stop growing, some melt or drop older leaves, water gets cloudy, and algae prosper. What the hell has got wrong? What is the ultimate cause?
I've been solving this puzzle all the time. I've got no definite answer. Yet I believe the crux is in microbial sphere. Something - incl. quite natural development, like temperature increase in summer - makes the established microbial community move, develop in some direction. I'm in social sciences, so I imagine it's like nations developing at unequal pace. China's grown strong, Russia's dying, the West (=our plants and fish) has to cope with that somehow. The result is a tension, unstable environment. Some damage is inevitable.
Obviously, the question stands - how to avoid such incidents? And if they happen, what's the remedy?
Here, we come back to bacterial inoculations. In fact, whenever we add them, we contribute to the tension: a new power in the field, so to speak. And indeed, my experience with them is equivocal. New bacteria may make things better or worse. It's a blind shot. But it suggests that my assumption is correct - the core is microbes, their quantity and composition.
I've got only one general clue. The more oxygen microbes have, the more "healthy" decomposition. By "healthy" is meant direct, fast, mostly aerobic decomposition of organic matter into minerals, our friends. Still, my venturi and quite regular water changes fail to protect me from bad incidents. Currently - following temperature increase - only one of my eight tanks is in "perfect" shape. Two are in crisis - thread green algae in one, and green water in the other. The rest are minor issues, yet my experience tells me that they may get worse.
Oh no, I don't have the answers. I only believe that my questions point to the right direction.
 
I received a complaint from someone whos name may start with "P" and end with "lantnoobdude" that my last update didnt include a FTS :crazy:
So ill start off with one just to get that bit sorted 😁

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The four weird random sponges have been there since I got back home from after the fire.
I had some of the filter media floating in the tank in the handful of hours that passed between me getting back into the apartment and the electricians getting the power back on.
I put the ceramic filter media that belonged to the Eheim canister back that day, but havent had the energy yet to put back these sponges which belong in the Aquael canister.
I gotta get them put away so they stop shading the plants they are on top of. They're a part of the "emergency filter media" bits that I keep in that canister. When the kitchen tank is not running, the filter media that belongs to the HOB filter for the kitchen tank also lives inside the Aquael canister. This way the media remains biologically active for the periods of time I only run the main tank, and they are ready to be put in action if I need to set up a second tank on short notice.
Anyway, the tank has received a little bit of trimming to select plants but otherwise is still growing a bit wild, I like it a lot and the fish seem very comfortable in the increasing jungle of plants 😊

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I have noticed a small to medium increase in BBA growth in my tank again, which is interesting to me :geek:
As a part of troubleshooting what might improve the coloration of the frogbit lately, I have been frontloading more micros for the past few water changes.
Instead of frontloading half the weekly amounts (0.21 Fe as proxy), I frontloaded the water change water with the full 0.42 ppm dose.
This didnt noticeably improve the plant symptoms I was looking for, but lines up roughly with the increase in BBA.
This may be peak heresy to some, but since this forum has several extremely long and inconclusive threads about how BBA works, perhaps it could be useful to reconsider a few factors that have previously been more or less dismissed.
Very annoyingly, some of the trends that I have seen with BBA growth in my tank are not clearly indicative of whether organic pollution, fluctuating CO2 levels, or excess or imbalanced micros were a part of the cause.
I currently consider it likely that BBA growth is encouraged by a combination of factors, and that just because it happened because of "X" and "Y" for one person, does not mean it didnt happen because of "Z" for another person.
It seems likely to me that some will get BBA problems because of X and Y, some because of X and Z, some because of just Y, and so on.
Because we dont have a clear cut answer for what makes BBA thrive after much discussing, there appears to me to be a likelihood for variations in factors/causes.
That would help explain why its hard to nail down a specific cause that everyone can agree on.
For the algae, I think it only matters if enough factors in total are present in sufficient amount, then it will grow because the conditions create an available niche for it.
Ive also been pondering if the factors are more intertwined than we typically give them credit for. When we say organic pollution "or" fluctuating CO2 levels, we might be downplaying the connection between them.
For example like fluctuating CO2 levels causing organic pollution to increase. If the plants dont grow optimally, they might release more compounds into the water. Decaying plant growth contributes to organic pollution (this is not usually disputed).
But in reverse also, a polluted or poorly maintained tank could cause fluctuations in CO2 levels. Clogging of pipes and intakes causes changes in the level of flow. Changes to the surface of the water, like oil films or dense thickets of plants causes offgassing to be altered, resulting in changes to CO2 levels. They seem quite interlinked to me.
Now for some more heresy though :hungry:
Some people who struggle with BBA have tried improving, tweaking, checking and doublechecking the two factors mentioned above with limited success in curbing the amount of BBA in their tank.
If excess micro dosing and/or imbalanced micro dosing causes the plants not to grow optimally... The plants may release more organics, and they might not be able to properly utilize the amount of CO2 that is available in the tank.
If on top of that there is excessive excess of nutrients that BBA likes present in the water column, does it not make sense that BBA would show up?
In such a circumstance, correcting the micro dosing would then mean the plants grow better, pollute less, uptake more CO2, and there might be less excess in the water column.
When I have previously written about the period of time I had a really wicked amount of BBA growth, I had already identified that it could appear to be linked to organic pollution and fluctuating CO2 levels.
But this was also the same period of time that I was struggling a lot with the chlorosis issue in the plants. Because I was trying to rule out issues with iron uptake, there was a LOT of excess iron in the water column.
I had quite strongly pink water from EDDHA and fairly high readings on the test kits. So its possible that all three were present, and I wonder if they all contributed.
As usual, things are never quite as clear cut as I wish they were, and of course my tank has seen some instability lately with the house fire and everything associated with that. So I cant rule out other influences either.
But ill continue to observe my tank and write about my current thoughts, perhaps they will one day be helpful to someone :geek:

A little side note: I have a really fun looking staghorn kind of algae species in my tank.
One of the main reasons its "fun and interesting" is because it only shows up in the very occasional tuft here and there, its a rare ocurrence for me to find.
Usually I find it attached to an old rotting part of a plant or a really soft part of the driftwood.
What tickles my fancy about it is how "macro" it is. Its really cartoonishly large and thick, and very distinctly branched.
20230711_114449.jpg
This is a really crappy picture of the tuft I found today.
Its super slimy too, so trying to grab hold of it is a real challenge, because it slips out of your grip very easily.
I have another tuft sitting in a cup in the kitchen that I wanted to put under the microscope to have a closer look at, but I ran out of energy that day and havent gotten around to it yet.

Frogbit update:
Still more pale than it should be. Still doing gradual fading out of older leaves before they are due.
The fading seems to start with some paling/chlorosis from the sides of the leaf that moves inwards towards the center line of the leaf.
The leaves are still thinner than they should be, and lately some mild deformity has appeared as well (third picture). Very interesting :geek:
Tank is still running on the same micro mix, but the time to make a new batch is coming up.
The tank got more water changes than usual for a period of time because of the recent events, and I expect that this has influenced how the nutrient dosing has been for the tank.
Now that things are stable again I have resumed my biweekly water changes, and accumulation will have had a bigger effect on what is plentiful and what might be in shorter supply in the water column.
I suspect that this is why the leaves have varied a little bit.
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Some of the submerged plants are corroborating the input that im getting from the frogbit about (presumably) micros.
Even though things improved after increasing boron and zinc last time, im still seeing a little bit of deformity here and there.
There is a large variability from species to species in how strongly "symptoms" appear (and if they even appear at all).
20230711_114744.jpg
Some species(&varieties) like Rotala rotundifolia "Orange Juice" have been complaining about something for a long time now.
I attribute the longstanding issue with OJ to two things; Rotala rotundifolia likes to grow fast, and when it cant grow fast it likes to throw a tantrum.
Just like its other relatives from the infamous Lythraceae family. This also makes it a good indicator plant.
Rotala rotundifolia "Blood Red SG" has also complained, but not as much as OJ. There seems to be variation in severity even from variety to variety.
Im guessing that even the plant varieties could have slightly different parameter ranges that they are able to deal with without displaying anything obvious.
It seemed to me at first that these symptoms looked a lot like CO2 issues, so I had to spend a fair bit of time ruling that out first since its a really big one when youre troubleshooting.
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Bacopa madagascariensis has also put out some leaves that arent quite well formed.
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Lobelia cardinalis "Mini" (which right now is not looking very mini:bored:) is doing some interesting downward cupping/curling.


But you know this micro stuff is still a relatively minor issue when...
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The drama queen is alive 😂
The Pantanal stem in the back got shortened and replanted, and is not showing any indications of badly stunting. Well I'll be damned! 🤯
I had my popcorn ready and everything to see how much it was gonna sulk this time. But no sulking 🤔
Even the stem thats in front of it that stunted when the tank was dark and without power, is putting out a new shoot instead of just dying outright. Thats also an improvement.
It seems conditions are more to Pantanals liking in my tank now than how it was about a year ago.
Many variables have changed since then, so I wouldnt be able to guess what.
It might even be a combination of many smaller things.

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On the fishy side of things, ive had a few losses from the otos. I feel like im finally getting some sort of feel for this whole fishy health business, because not too long ago I would be freaking out at the first dead oto and putting heaven and earth in motion to try to figure out what caused it. Ive lost three otos now, and im fairly sure it had absolutely nothing to do with me.
All the other fish in the tank are in absolutely stellar health. These otos arent from the best store, and when I bought them I got a few that were a little fat looking.
I thought I was getting perhaps a few females that were carrying eggs, and you know they say "a fat oto is a happy oto". But I should have known they were just a little bit too fat.
The fattest one died first, from something resembling dropsy (organ failure and gaining water in the body as the kidneys stop functioning).
Dropsy tends to look very different in corydoras and otocinclus than in "normal fish", because the former two have armor plates instead of scales.
I could see this death coming once that fish increased beyond a certain size.
Some days after that the second fattest one turned in its oars, and then a third one a bit later.
As far as I can tell this damage had already been done when the fish were in the store, and I dont think there was much I could have done to change it.
I havent seen any dead fish after that, so it appears that the ones that werent gonna make it have passed now.
I havent had the opportunity to count the otos in the tank right now, but I should try to do that soon to see if I can still account for all the rest of them.
The rest of them appear pretty healthy and I havent seen any more suspiciously fat ones.

Knowing when to intervene and when not to intervene is a part of the hobby that I think is really difficult.
I sure have taken a long time to get where I feel like I have even vaguely an idea of what to do.
I seem to have made the right call with the otos, and im glad about that.
Im still really enjoying the tank and might be back with more ramblings soon 😊
 
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I received a complaint from someone whos name may start with "P" and end with "lantnoobdude" that my last update didnt include a FTS :crazy:
might be back with more ramblings soon 😊
Who could it be?!?! Jokes aside the tank is looking really phenomenal, that pantanal looks darn good too!
 
The tank looks really good @Hufsa ! 👍 Yeah, a bit of BBA ... at this level, it looks like a local phenomenon limited to a few plants - this could be anything among all the things we all keep repeating.

I know this is not entirely scientific or a way to gain knowledge or experience and may not sit well with you, but if it would be my tank I would just yank out the offensive plants, toss them or give them a bath in diluted Excel and enjoy the accomplishment of a beautiful planted aquarium 🙂

Cheers,
Michael
 
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Tank is looking great @Hufsa !

I wouldn't be too concerned about that localised BBA, the rest of the tank looks healthy and largely algae free. If it were me, that BBA would be getting an Excel stink bomb dropped on it to end its short reign, but I know you are seeking a more righteous path!

A couple of points I have have missed (you'll have to forgive me, we are at page 67 😅) what was the solution in the end to the long running chlorosis?

Also how have you got on with the Caridina shrimp you had, have they bred?
 
Hi all,
A couple of points I have have missed (you'll have to forgive me, we are at page 67 😅) what was the solution in the end to the long running chlorosis?
I can do that one, it was <"a manganese (Mn) deficiency">. I'm guessing that very few of us will get these, because the <"trace of manganese in our tap water"> will be enough to satisfy plant growth requirements.

As far as I know it is only @Hufsa who has <"suffered from it">, but you wouldn't be able to tell iron (Fe) and manganese deficiencies apart from the visuals.

This is manganese deficiency in Pogostemon helferi
197294-8988883b7c4e68759aeb8220db67cce7.jpg
and <"this is iron">.
upload_2020-1-22_21-28-35-png-png-png.png

<"Chempak Sequestered Iron"> would be a manganese source.

cheers Darrel
 
The tank looks really good @Hufsa ! 👍
Tank is looking great @Hufsa !
🥳🥰

Yeah, a bit of BBA ... at this level, it looks like a local phenomenon limited to a few plants - this could be anything among all the things we all keep repeating.

I know this is not entirely scientific or a way to gain knowledge or experience and may not sit well with you, but if it would be my tank I would just yank out the offensive plants, toss them or give them a bath in diluted Excel and enjoy the accomplishment of a beautiful planted aquarium 🙂
I wouldn't be too concerned about that localised BBA, the rest of the tank looks healthy and largely algae free. If it were me, that BBA would be getting an Excel stink bomb dropped on it to end its short reign, but I know you are seeking a more righteous path!
Localised depends a bit on how you define it I think, its only showing up on slower growing plants, but it is spread evenly throughout the tank. Normally you wouldnt get BBA on stemplants unless your tank is seriously struggling, but Bacopa madagascariensis is actually slow growing enough to have gotten a light dusting of BBA on a few stems and leaves. So its mainly that most of the plants in the tank are growing too fast for the BBA to take hold on them (or something like that).

Also you guys are absolutely right that using some glutaraldehyde and calling it a day is not in the cards :twisted::lol:
BBA has been such a constant companion of mine, im invested in trying to understand more about it.
I think it definitely comes down to what one wants with their tanks, I know a lot of people would do what you suggest and be quite happy with that, and thats a valid option of course 😊

A couple of points I have have missed (you'll have to forgive me, we are at page 67 😅)
Anyone is very welcome to ask for a TLDR from a topic of the journal, honestly sometimes I wish I could get a TLDR myself when I have to go back to look for something 😂
what was the solution in the end to the long running chlorosis?
Also how have you got on with the Caridina shrimp you had, have they bred?
Darrel has you covered on the Manganese deficiency chlorosis :thumbup:
In many plant species it appears very similar to Iron deficiency, but when very severe it will present differently in Frogbit.
I wonder if the reason that "just dosing more micros" in general didnt work, is that Iron and Manganese have a competitive relationship.
If that is the reason, then increasing micros overall would not work, because the increase in iron would still more or less cancel out the increase in Manganese.
I had to tweak the ratio between Iron and Manganese in order to get good improvement.
As usual I am kinda reluctant to declare myself 200% certain because of how many moving parts are in a planted tank, but if the above is correct then this is some compelling evidence that ratios do indeed matter in some circumstances.

The Caridina shrimp tried breeding (females were berried and carried the eggs to term) but I never saw any offspring.
The water was probably not soft enough for them, 3 dKH is on the edge of what they can deal with and in my tank it seems they could not deal with that.


Actually, that reminds me of something significant I havent gotten around to mentioning yet.
My tank is running with ~1 dKH and 4.55 dGH now. (GH from 21 ppm Ca and 7 ppm Mg, so the common 3:1 ratio)
As some of you may remember I have been looking into and testing using acids to lower the KH.
I was planning to do that in not too long, just on the basis that we know a lot of the picky plants we grow like low carbonate levels.
This was a part of the "try not to maximise learning so much that the enjoyment of the tank is nonexistent -plan".
Its been running like this for about 3 and a half weeks now. I had not planned to do it quite this soon, because I wanted to do it at a point not much else was going on so I could observe any effects more closely :geek:
But when I knew the wild caught fish were incoming, I decided that I didnt want to add the potential stress from adapting to changing water values, onto the stress they already had been through with being caught and shipped etc.
So I moved "the lowering of the KH" earlier up on my timetable.
That didnt give me the maximum struggling per learning ratio, but implementing it a bit sooner still gives a better struggling to enjoying ratio.
The question in my mind wasnt really if the plants were going to like it or not, many of the species in my tank are soft water plants.
The question was more "how much would they enjoy it".
The house fire and ensuing disruption to the tanks normal routine was, as you might have guessed, an unplanned and inconvenient event.
Im not sure how much difference it has made, I havent yet observed any like major obvious difference, but I feel like there was a bit too much going on at the same time to make up a good opinion.
Perhaps it is plausible that a lowering of KH has that type of very diffuse effect?
From reading on this forum, people who have moved from harder water to softer water (either from moving houses or from switching water sources), seem to report a general "everything is a little bit easier" effect.
I havent seen mention yet of anything really specific.
So maybe thats how it is 🤷‍♀️
 
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Hi all,
...... I wonder if the reason that "just dosing more micros" in general didn't work, is that Iron and Manganese have a competitive relationship.
If that is the reason, then increasing micros overall would not work, because the increase in iron would still more or less cancel out the increase in Manganese.
I had to tweak the ratio between Iron and Manganese in order to get good improvement.
As usual I am kinda reluctant to declare myself 200% certain because of how many moving parts are in a planted tank, but if the above is correct then this is some compelling evidence that ratios do indeed matter in some circumstances.....
Yes, back into <"Donald Rumsfeld territory unfortunately">, but there definitely are interactions where high levels of available iron effect the uptake of other multivalent cations (and vice-versa) <"Manganese Antagonism from High Iron in Soils">.

Because <"Vitax"> / Chempak sell a product <Chempak® Sequestered Iron with Magnesium & Manganese | Thompson & Morgan"> that contains manganese (Mn) and magnesium (Mg), as well as chelated iron (Fe) I'm guessing that <"they wanted to cover all bases"> in terms of the likely causes of chlorosis (assuming that it isn't nitrogen (N) deficiency based <"The scientific background to the "Leaf Colour Chart"">).

I'm also going to guess that the ratio of Fe : Mn used by hydroponic mixes is about right. <"Solufeed sodium free TEC micronutrient"> use ~4 : 1 Fe : Mn.
SolufeedSodiumFreeTEC.jpg

cheers Darrel
 
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That's a well-known phenomenon in agriculture.
It sure is :thumbup:

I am surprised by how ignored this is in our hobby 🤔
I think I might have briefly written (if I am even capable of such a thing) about it already so apologies if Im just repeating myself.
Why is this so rarely mentioned? "This" being how different plants can be.
Variety to variety parameter tolerances, but especially species to species differences!

Those who have been "in the game" for a while know that for example many Ludwigias thrive in conditions that certain Lythraceae (Ammannia, Cuphea, Didiplis, Rotala) dont seem to like as much.
Sometimes if you see a picture of a stem heavy planted tank, you can almost guess what kind of nutrient regime they use, by the presence or lack of certain plant species or families.
With increased understanding of specific plant tolerance ranges, it would be simpler for the aquarist to either select plants that would be most likely to do well under their existing regime, or select a dosing regime and system setup based on which plants they desire the most. And perhaps a general awareness that some plant species are a little bit more difficult to keep happy in the same tank together.
It could lead to a shorter period of struggling and confusion if issues arise :geek:

Assuming or stating that "all aquarium plants need exactly the same" (which I have actually seen one or two "experts" claim), not only goes against all science knows about plants, but strikes me as willfully wishful thinking. Its true that the selection of plant species that we grow under water have not been as intensely studied as something like our common crop plants. But just think about ferns, succulents, orchids, different types of flowers you see out when youre hiking. They have some pretty major tolerance differences.
Even just one kind of wildflower that we get in the springtime in Norway, only ever grows in a particular kind of soil, never anywhere else.
Why on earth would aquarium plants be the only exception? That doesnt make any logical sense.

However, I will specify that I definitely think aquarium plants are more alike than they are different. Thats not what im trying to get at here, and im hopefully not misunderstood.
A tank setup that has been designed to make it a productive place for plant growth to happen, will still grow a large majority of plants.
I just feel like sometimes the attention to these differences is lost when people are trying to solve problems with individual plants.
I have found it helpful to try to maintain a holistic view (the big picture) of the tank.
I have a somewhat insane selection of plant species crammed into my tank, and I see clearly how differently they react to things.
Many of the ones that dont react much at are the ones we have classified as "Easy category". Unlikely to be a coincidence.
Those Easy plants are more likely to have wide tolerance ranges that most people will be able to stay within.
If I were to get hung up on just one of the species in my tank, I think I would have a very hard time making any progress.
Getting information from all the plants and trying to find the common thread has given me much more success than before.
I think that is one of the better ways to get to grips with more difficult plant species.
But a lot of time and observation is required to get to know them and their preferences optimally 😊
 
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Because <"Vitax"> / Chempak sell a product <"https://www.thompson-morgan.com/p/chempakreg-sequestered-iron-with-magnesium-manganese/kww2563TM"> that contains manganese (Mn) and magnesium (Mg), as well as chelated iron (Fe) I'm guessing that <"they wanted to cover all bases"> in terms of the likely causes of chlorosis (assuming that it isn't nitrogen (N) deficiency based
Was definitely thinking the same when I saw the Iron+Manganese supplement.
There are some really smart people out there working for fertilizer companies, and I dont think its a coincidence that they included some Mn with the Fe for example.
How to turn smart into money?
Allow for the possibility that your customers might have misdiagnosed their supposed Fe deficiency, and that its actually Mn deficiency or even Mg deficiency.
Include those in the product so that the product still works either way. Customer sees problems lessened, happy customer = more sales more money 😁

I will be expecting you to include "Mn" in your usual "Fe or maybe Mg" response from now on @dw1305 , otherwise I shall be sorely disappointed 😉
 
I'm also going to guess that the ratio of Fe : Mn used by hydroponic mixes is about right. <"Solufeed sodium free TEC micronutrient"> use ~4 : 1 Fe : Mn.
View attachment 208102
I see you put in a sneaky edit that I didnt get to respond to 😁
Thats EDTA chelated Fe though, so thats less stable in PH ranges that many of our tanks sit around.
Perhaps its possible to shave down the iron amount in that ratio if the iron is chelated with DTPA instead.
My tank currently gets 2:1 Fe:Mn, but im open to the possibility of altering it slightly in the future. Preferably when not much else is going on (she infamously said)
 
Hi all,
Assuming or stating that "all aquarium plants need exactly the same" (which I have actually seen one or two "experts" claim), not only goes against all science knows about plants, but strikes me as willfully wishful thinking. Its true that the selection of plant species that we grow under water have not been as intensely studied as something like our common crop plants. But just think about ferns, succulents, orchids, different types of flowers you see out when youre hiking. They have some pretty major tolerance differences.
Even just one kind of wildflower that we get in the springtime in Norway, only ever grows in a particular kind of soil, never anywhere else.
Why on earth would aquarium plants be the only exception? That doesnt make any logical sense.
That is definitely where <"I'm coming from">. I'm also going to guess that most of the Tropica Easy category plants <"plant details - Tropica Aquarium Plants"> are in the <"one size fits all"> category.
Allow for the possibility that your customers might have misdiagnosed their supposed Fe deficiency, and that its actually Mn deficiency or even Mg deficiency.
Include those in the product so that the product still works either way. Customer sees problems lessened, happy customer = more sales more money
I'm pretty sure you are right, it doesn't matter which <"ingredient worked"> as long as one did (or they worked synergistically).
I will be expecting you to include "Mn" in your usual "Fe or maybe Mg" response from now on @dw1305 , otherwise I shall be sorely disappointed
<"Lesson learned"> and the penny should probably have dropped a bit more quickly, once you've exhausted the probable you <"need to go onto the possible"> or you end up repeating the same mistakes.

cheers Darrel
 
I will be expecting you to include "Mn" in your usual "Fe or maybe Mg" response from now on @dw1305 , otherwise I shall be sorely disappointed 😉

Are most people ever going to get an Mn deficiency though unless they are mixing their own micros? If they are dosing a pre-made micro mix, won't most contain sufficient Mn?
 
Hi all,
Very similar ratio in the APFUK micro mix I use (4.3:1)
I'm going to guess they will all be pretty similar. In some cases it will be because it is the <"same product re-branded">, but in others it will be a case of "don't re-invent the wheel".

Partially why I recommend <"commercial terrestrial hydroponic fertilisers"> is that they have to work. If they don't, a very irate Tomato grower etc. is going to buy somebody else's product.

<"Seachem">, ADA etc. just couldn't get away with <"selling their products"> to consumers with a <"quantifiable end product">, in terms of yield and cost per unit.

cheers Darrel
 
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Are most people ever going to get an Mn deficiency though unless they are mixing their own micros?
Didnt we conclude in some other thread that many tap water sources will have been chemically stripped of Fe, Mn and Zn by the treatment plant (for boring human-centric reasons 😁) ?
Of course as usual I dont remember which thread that was :oldman:
Theres also a fair bit of RO users in the community now that will be starting from more or less completely stripped water.
In such cases, and especially if lean dosing I think, this will end up mattering more for how a fertilizer performs with demanding plants.
If they are dosing a pre-made micro mix, won't most contain sufficient Mn?
Well, how do we actually know that? 😁 Perhaps we have just assumed it?
Seems to me that its very common to say that premade micro mixes "dont give enough iron" / "iron is not chelated optimally" etc, but on what basis did we actually determine that?
Pale new leaves? That could be more than just Fe :geek:
Sometimes users report a complete resolution of problems after spiking with just Iron. Good, that means it was likely Iron.
But sometimes the problems dont seem to get much better, or actually seem a bit worse. In that case I think Mn should not be too far from our suspicions.
So, if Mn is almost always sufficient or not in premade blends, I think thats still up in the air.
 
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Hi all,

I'm going to guess they will all be pretty similar. In some cases it will be because it is the <"same product re-branded">, but in others it will be a case of "don't re-invent the wheel".

Partially why I recommend <"commercial terrestrial hydroponic fertilisers"> is that they have to work. If they don't, a very irate Tomato grower etc. is going to buy somebody else's product.

<"Seachem">, ADA etc. just could get away with <"selling their products"> to consumers with a <"quantifiable end product">, in terms of yield and cost per unit.

cheers Darrel

Yeah, absolutely the APFUK is just a generic CSM+B mix.

I have wondered before whether even the likes of Tropica or TNC also simply buy an off the shelf micro mix to create their solutions - given the relatively low quantities they sell (compared to commercial fertilizer suppliers), I wonder if they really go to the effort of reinventing the wheel?
 
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