Cloudy Water Hazy Water and Algae!

[_Maq_]

I've made good experience with ordinary powdered ferric oxide added at the very bottom, beneath the substrate. Plants' roots, and microbes even more so, can turn such iron into digestible form.
Even our grandfathers' method - burying iron nails in the substrate - works quite well.
Even much of chelated iron ends in the substrate in insoluble form and later gets dissolved by bacteria. On the other hand, if there's a lot of bicarbonates and especially phosphates in the water column, microscopic iron precipitates are created in the water column and may get trapped in the filter.
I suspect overdosing phosphates (EI method) is one of the main reasons why people struggle with iron deficiency.

 

[AquariusPeter]

Hi all,

Your photos do look like classic iron deficiency. You can find plenty of other examples and photos of this in this thread
I had been using the all-in-one fert APT EI that includes EDTA, DTPA & EDDHA and found that they were NOT in enough quantity to overcome the iron deficiency. Do not dispair though, it can be overcome. The plants only need a very small amount of iron, but it is very hard for them to aquire it in water with a high PH and or Hard Water. If you are a co2 user, then dosing iron becomes even more important, as you have the pedal hard on the car accelarator as such, due to higher light levels, and your plants will show deficiencies quicker.

For me the solution was to dose pre-mixed TNC DTPA Iron (AT) that you can get off amazon, together with EDDHA from Bioly (Iron Plus B), and Seachchem Iron. If injecting Co2, you need to dose these just before the lights come on, as your PH will have dropped to a low level, giving the iron it's best chance of staying in the water for longer. I found it was best to dose this on a seperate day to your all-in-one / Macros. I also ended up dosing Manganese, as I found this helped for me (it might not for you). I would try DTPA first, and see if your plants react, maybe try 0.5ppm. For me I did some testing and found DTPA by itself helped a fair bit, EDDHA by itself helped a bit, but them all mixed together provided the best results (I could cause white leaves by stopping dosing either). I highly suggested using Frogbit for Duckweed Index to give you an idea if it is working. For me at first the frogbit would just melt, but after dosing iron, the new leaves would green up (NOTE: it is only the new growth that will be green). The great thing about Frogbit is when it has iron it will grow quickly, and you will see the new green leaves.

I hope showing this helps. This was my tank at its worse before the iron deficiency was diagnosed and sorted, everything was dying:
View attachment 213989
and this was it after dosing iron. Note: I had to take the seiryu stone out, and that reduced the hardness a bit.
View attachment 213990
Here I am still having problems with some plants in my hard water to the right with the rotala, but other plants are growing again.

Wow you have really beautifully planted aquarium 🤩🤩🤩 I hope I will get there one day 😃

Hi all,
Thanks @keef321 .

Yes, normally permanent harness (dGH) and alkalinity or carbonate (or temporary) hardness (dKH) increase together because they are both derived from limestone (CaCO3) and that supplies 1 dGH to 1 dKH. Have a look at <"Some handy facts about water">.

You can use FeDTPA and FeEDDHA for all the water types we are going to have in our tanks. If you have more than about 4dKH alkalinity then pH will always be ~ pH 8 and FeEDTA may not provide enough plant available iron (Fe).

Yes, together. Have a look at <"Above 8"> and the <"Hybrid Duckweed Index">.

They may initially be greener, but as they perk up I'd expect them to colour up, possibly dependent <"on some other factors">.

cheers Darrel

Yes according to flora grow from colombo it has EDTA and DTPA fe.

I decided to add 5 more pumps if 1 pump they recommending per 5 litre.

I took out some water for a better surface aeration, because is still cloudy shortly after photoperiod starts.

I wiped green dusts from glass.

I attach photos from today shortly after 3pm when photoperiod started.

I decreased temp a bit till 22.5°C.

Could you please guys check on these photos if this water is getting green ish???

If am wrong correct me.

Best Regards

Peter

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

Could you please guys check on these photos if this water is getting green ish???

There might be a greenish tinge. Is the <"green algae on the gravel"> new?

We used to use <"perlite trough culture"> for these experiments, partially because the presence, or absence, and colour of green algae on the perlite surface gives you a good idea about the nutrient status of the pot.

I'll be honest, I would look on some green algae growth <"as a good sign">, one that indicates that plant available iron (Fe+++) is present.
<"Alternanthera deficiency">.

cheers Darrel

 

[AquariusPeter]

Is the algae on the gravel new?

Well hard to say as I have longer time green algae on gravel, plants and glasses.
I vacuum the gravel by every water change and after it green algae coming back. .
Green hair algae covering plants' leaves and the green dust all the time coming back on glasses.

Hard to say.

Thank you,

Best regards,

Piotr

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

Well hard to say as I have longer time green algae on gravel, plants and glasses.
I vacuum the gravel by every water change and after it green algae coming back. .
Green hair algae covering plants' leaves and the green dust all the time coming back on glasses.

Interesting, unfortunately only time will tell.

cheers Darrel

 

[AquariusPeter]

Hi all,

Interesting, unfortunately only time will tell.

cheers Darrel

I noticed also new shots from lobelia cardinalis, as I forgot to mention about this plant I have as well.

The new leaves are green ish .

Since my last water change I didn't add at all Nitro, Fosfo and Kalium but I will do water tests tomorrow to see how it is with Nitro and Fosfo. I know tests aren't precisely but just for orientation.

I dosed only Fe to see what will happen.

Well, day after tomorrow I will be doing water change.

And as you say, the time will tell us.

Best Regards

Peter

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

Since my last water change I didn't add at all Nitro, Fosfo and Kalium but I will do water tests tomorrow to see how it is with Nitro and Fosfo. I know tests aren't precisely but just for orientation.

Personally I'd carry on adding all the nutrients.

I'm not anti-testing <"Testing for EI">, I actually look after a lab. where <"we do some water testing">, but I don't make decisions based on test results, unless I'm happy with the methodology and equipment used used.

cheers Darrel

 

[AquariusPeter]

Hi all,

Personally I'd carry on adding all the nutrients.

I'm not anti-testing <"Testing for EI">, I actually look after a lab. where <"we do some water testing">, but I don't make decisions based on test results, unless I'm happy with the methodology and equipment used used.

cheers Darrel

Hi, Thank you for your suggestions.

Well I decided to buy tests because a s a beginner I didn't know what o really have in the water. I was reading a lot of about ratios between elements like Ca:Mg 4:1
Some of guys on YouTube telling about that skeleton Ca:Mg 4:1 but then K would have to be K= 2More times than Mg. Unless it is Myth that Ca:Mg:K should be 4:1:2
Then N : P : K 10:1:20

I was trying these but results are like on the photos.

Well done don't know even if I have a basic knowledge, as I mentioned I am a chemist, and I don't fully understand how elements are working under water. And that is why I am trying, if everybody can have beautifully planted tank, I think I can have as well. But somewhere I am losing sth I don't really fully understand it.
I am on nightshift tomorrow. Tomorrow I will do tests. Tests just for indication to know what is going on in the water.

Thank you so much for your help 🙏

Best regards

Peter

 

[keef321]

Yes according to flora grow from colombo it has EDTA and DTPA fe.

I decided to add 5 more pumps if 1 pump they recommending per 5 litre.

Hi AquariusPeter,
I notice your profile says you are based in Retford, if this indeed is the case, then I am near to you, not far from Bawtry, hello 🙂. This I would think would mean we have similar water, so I would guess you will have a good amount of calcium >40, magnesium >20 and a PH of say >7.8 (more than this when degassed). I have found this means that it is hard to feed some elements to our plants.....and also if injecting Co2.....then you have to inject more than you would expect and it takes longer for the PH to drop.

So what does this mean?? Well a good complete fertiliser that I started with in my 60 litre tank according to the instructions should have done the trick!! 6ml per week, and if I go crazy then 18ml per week. Well, I ended up dosing 35ml x 3 times a week, yes thats 105ml per week. This equated to 1.4 ppm of iron, yikes, and guess what, I still had iron deficiency. My iron test kit said I had loads of iron in the water, but my plants were still white!! Yes I had iron, but the plants could not take any of it........my test kit told me nothing of interest. I now only use test kits for cycling a tank, KH, GH & PH.

Anyhow, moving on, I would say try increasing your dose of flora for now, in a good week or two you should see positive increase in green new plant health if it works, if not, then you need to add a seperate chelated iron suppliment. Trust me, once you fix the deficiency, the algea issues can then be sorted out much much easier. Just now your plants are not well due to the deficiency, when they are not well they leach out nutrients into the water and this attracts the algae...lots of it (I may not be 100% correct here in my science, but its the way I see it, please be gentle with me forum experts, lol). Once you can grow healthy plants that are not deficient, then you will have less algae problems (although you may have to put some work in first to remove it).

I note you mention possibly going down the RO water route....this is something I am doing now at 50% and its very positive so far, but still early days (my photos were 100% tap water). This is because I wanted to grow specific plants that I could not grow in my hard water. You will eventually find out which plants grow in your tap water, and then you can make a nice scape with them. If your water is similar to mine, I can always advise you on some plants that I think you may have success with in your water, once you have the iron issue sorted out.

A friend of mine locally was trying to grow plants in his fish biased tank and was struggling a bit just using an all in one fertiliser, I told him to try TNC iron, and now they grow well, he got crypts, Vallis etc, it’s a large tank and they are growing really well.

Cheers,
Keith

 

[_Maq_]

My iron test kit said I had loads of iron in the water, but my plants were still white!! Yes I had iron, but the plants could not take any of it

I don't know which test for iron you're using, but many - if not most - tests can't separate ionic iron (the only readily available for plants) from iron bound in various substances (colloidal iron). As far as I know, separating these species is quite tricky even in professional conditions.
This is just another reason why I never perform testing for iron (in spite of owning relatively professional tools for that). The first reason, though, is that targeting any level hardly makes sense. The same amount of iron in the water column may be enough or not depending on multiple variables. In a well-maintained, mature tank, most of the iron business happens in the sediment, anyway.
Only, only only plants can tell you whether they've got enough iron or not.

 

[AquariusPeter]

Hello is good to know I have somebody near me who has the same hobby 😃

Hi AquariusPeter,
I notice your profile says you are based in Retford, if this indeed is the case, then I am near to you, not far from Bawtry, hello 🙂. This I would think would mean we have similar water, so I would guess you will have a good amount of calcium >40, magnesium >20 and a PH of say >7.8 (more than this when degassed). I have found this means that it is hard to feed some elements to our plants.....and also if injecting Co2.....then you have to inject more than you would expect and it takes longer for the PH to drop.

Yes that is correct, I am based in Retford and my tap water is very similar or even I would say the same as yours. I checked it by Anglian Water site when you put your post code and then you can go for fully water report. And when you check area quality water report from Anglian water it says:
In the first top table:

Total hardness as Calcium (mg/l)	Total hardness as Calcium carbonate (mg/l)	Total hardness as Degrees Clark (°Clark or °e)	Total hardness as Degrees French (°f)	Total hardness as Degrees German (°dH)	Total hardness as millimoles (mmol/l of Ca)
85.176	212.94	14.821	21.294	12.095	2.129

Now this Ca is very confusing me. Especially Ratio Ca:Mg...

Because when I check table below where are all elements:

Parameter	Legal Limit	Units	Number of samples taken	Minimum Average Maximum Sample Results

Calcium

No legal Limit

mg/l

2

46.805

47.219

47.632

Magnesium

No legal Limit

mg/l

2

22.857

23.078

23.298

Nitrate

50

mg/l

6

26.203

32.5

37.39

Phosphorus	No legal Limit	mg/l	36	0.426	0.527	1.194	0
Potassium	No legal Limit	mg/l	1	2.773	2.773	2.773

As we can see we have 3 different values of Ca elements in water.
Ca- 85 mg/l
CaCo3- 212mg/l

and then table below sample of Ca:
Average 47.219mg/l ..

And finally how much Ca we have in this water? 🧐😃

so we can not be sure about even Ca:Mg ratio is 2:1...

As we can see also on table above the Nitrates and Phosphates are quite high. But this report I checked now my break time at work. But during spring and sommer time these values are higher usually.

That is why i buy RO water excatly in Bawtry Aquatic Shop.

And till now I have been using only RO water with that minerals what I described from Dennerle Shrimp King gH/kH+ and plus those fertilisers what I have from Aquadip Nitro, Fosfo, Potassium.

Using these minerals I have been setting water for
gH=6-7
kH =2
Everything what i have been doing till now i have been mineralising that RO water with those Minerals plus those fertilisers.

So what does this mean?? Well a good complete fertiliser that I started with in my 60 litre tank according to the instructions should have done the trick!! 6ml per week, and if I go crazy then 18ml per week. Well, I ended up dosing 35ml x 3 times a week, yes thats 105ml per week. This equated to 1.4 ppm of iron, yikes, and guess what, I still had iron deficiency. My iron test kit said I had loads of iron in the water, but my plants were still white!! Yes I had iron, but the plants could not take any of it........my test kit told me nothing of interest. I now only use test kits for cycling a tank, KH, GH & PH.

And now i don't really know by my next wster change what to do with tap water.

I could try and I am considering to mix 50/50 RO/Tap, but then i would have to know how much micro shall i use.
Now since my last water change, my water

gH 5
Kh 2

And yesterday I added 3 pumps of flora grow and today 5 pumps. As it syad 1 pump per 5 litre.
 

Anyhow, moving on, I would say try increasing your dose of flora for now, in a good week or two you should see positive increase in green new plant health if it works, if not, then you need to add a seperate chelated iron suppliment. Trust me, once you fix the deficiency, the algea issues can then be sorted out much much easier. Just now your plants are not well due to the deficiency, when they are not well they leach out nutrients into the water and this attracts the algae...lots of it (I may not be 100% correct here in my science, but its the way I see it, please be gentle with me forum experts, lol). Once you can grow healthy plants that are not deficient, then you will have less algae problems (although you may have to put some work in first to remove it).

I am thinking about to mix RO with Tap. But still those above in tables are confusing me 😃
And I am still on RO.

I note you mention possibly going down the RO water route....this is something I am doing now at 50% and its very positive so far, but still early days (my photos were 100% tap water). This is because I wanted to grow specific plants that I could not grow in my hard water. You will eventually find out which plants grow in your tap water, and then you can make a nice scape with them. If your water is similar to mine, I can always advise you on some plants that I think you may have success with in your water, once you have the iron issue sorted out.

A friend of mine locally was trying to grow plants in his fish biased tank and was struggling a bit just using an all in one fertiliser, I told him to try TNC iron, and now they grow well, he got crypts, Vallis etc, it’s a large tank and they are growing really well.

Cheers,
Keith

If I get those Minerals from GHNelson then I will maybe try with them. If they not come before Christmas then maybe I will try RO mixing with Tap Water. Anyway for those Minerals I need to get that IFC calculator which is in excel but I don't have it one.

I am not using CO2 yet. I have 3kg bottle CO2 and regulator but not connected yet as I want really learn well the basic of fertilising and do it for the moment without CO2

Sorry if it will be a bit chaos in this post. But. I am on break at work.

Thank you ,

Best Ragards,

Peter



.

 

[keef321]

I don't know which test for iron you're using, but many - if not most - tests can't separate ionic iron (the only readily available for plants) from iron bound in various substances (colloidal iron). As far as I know, separating these species is quite tricky even in professional conditions.
This is just another reason why I never perform testing for iron (in spite of owning relatively professional tools for that). The first reason, though, is that targeting any level hardly makes sense. The same amount of iron in the water column may be enough or not depending on multiple variables. In a well-maintained, mature tank, most of the iron business happens in the sediment, anyway.
Only, only only plants can tell you whether they've got enough iron or not.

That is why i buy RO water excatly in Bawtry Aquatic Shop.

Ah sorry, I thought you were using tap water and thinking of going down the RO route. If that’s the case and you are remineralising then perhaps someone else can jump in and assist.

I’ve only had experience with using 100% tap water, and literally just started going down the 50% tap 50% RO mix.

Still, good to see someone local. I’ve been getting my RO from bawtry, but just ordered a unit to make it myself.

 

[erwin123]

Gh= 5

Kh= 2

TDS showed me today 129ppm

In General describing my problem is i have green dusts on glass, green dots on leaves, plants, green algaes on wood, and if i am not mistaken i have green hair algaes and the coming from that green dots, and green dust.... Whenever i wipe the glass the coming back...

Gh5 Kh2 is great, you can grow almost anything without thinking too hard about it.

For reference, my tap water is Gh6 Kh3 so thats 'harder' and my plants are happy. I just dose Tropica from the bottle (roughly following Tropica's dosing levels) and Seachem Iron/Trace from the bottle.

While Tropica Specialised is expensive for what it contains, at 8 pumps a week (16ml) in my 180l tank, my 750ml bottle will last 47 weeks, so it really doesn't break the bank.

I have to scrape algae off my tank glass, its not a big deal, frankly I think its inevitable. I hear that some run their tanks very cold (20-21 degrees C?)in order to slow GDA growth but I don't have that option.
My philosophy is that its ok if algae are happy in my tank, as long as the plants are too! My hobby is growing plants, not killing algae 😎

 

[_Maq_]

@AquariusPeter , I think the greatest drawback of your tap water is high content of nitrates.
Now, I admit I'm presenting a minority opinion because many hobbyists live with such high nitrates happily, they even dose them to reach that level. Me, I believe it's quite unnecessary, even in hi-tech, and makes rather tricky to avoid nutrient imbalances.
I have a theory that plants' growth is "pulled" by nitrogen uptake. If nitrogen is abundant, plants "want" to grow quickly and demand other nutrients in huge amount, too. First and foremost, phosphorus. But if there are phosphates abundant in the water, then dosing micros is difficult, because phosphates are scavengers of micros (primarily iron). Then you need to use advanced chelates. Overdosing iron is harmless, but overdosing other micros is potentially dangerous.
Like I said, mine is a minority opinion. Most people can live with described situation, and believe that that's the normal way. I find my way easier and more natural.

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

I notice your profile says you are based in Retford, if this indeed is the case, then I am near to you, not far from Bawtry, hello

That is actually quite relevant to discussion about permanent hardness (dGH), because you live in one of the <"few areas of the UK"> where the permanent water hardness is made up from both calcium (Ca) and magnesium (Mg). This is because you have <"evaporite minerals present"> in the magnesian limestone aquifer.

Total hardness as Calcium (mg/l)	Total hardness as Calcium carbonate (mg/l)	Total hardness as Degrees Clark (°Clark or °e)	Total hardness as Degrees French (°f)	Total hardness as Degrees German (°dH)	Total hardness as millimoles (mmol/l of Ca)
85.176	212.94	14.821	21.294	12.095	2.129

Now this Ca is very confusing me. Especially Ratio Ca:Mg...

Because when I check table below where are all elements:

Parameter	Legal Limit	Units	Number of samples taken	Minimum Average Maximum Sample Results

Calcium

No legal Limit

mg/l

2

46.805

47.219

47.632

Magnesium

No legal Limit

mg/l

2

22.857

23.078

23.298

Nitrate

50

mg/l

6

26.203

32.5

37.39

Phosphorus	No legal Limit	mg/l	36	0.426	0.527	1.194	0
Potassium	No legal Limit	mg/l	1	2.773	2.773	2.773

As we can see we have 3 different values of Ca elements in water.
Ca- 85 mg/l
CaCo3- 212mg/l

and then table below sample of Ca:
Average 47.219mg/l ..

And finally how much Ca we have in this water?

Easy enough.

• You have 12.1 dGH (degrees German) <"Water report">.
• Of that permanent hardness 47 mg/L (ppm) is calcium (Ca) & 23 mg/L magnesium (Mg), the magnesium value is used as its calcium equivalent in the dGH calculation. Have a look at @_Maq_ 's article: <"Some handy facts about water">
• The CaCO3 value includes the dKH (alkalinity) and 1dKH = 17.86 ppm CaCO3 (<"Water Hardness">) so ~12 dKH.

I am thinking about to mix RO with Tap. But still those above in tables are confusing me

Your water is, honestly, absolutely <"perfect for that">. I'd start with 10% tap, 90% RO.

I think the greatest drawback of your tap water is high content of nitrates.

I don't think that matters - <"The Original">. I'd have absolutely no compunction about cutting @AquariusPeter's RO with tap. You are going to add potassium (K) etc with the fertiliser addition.

cheers Darrel

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

Well done don't know even if I have a basic knowledge, as I mentioned I am a chemist, and I don't fully understand how elements are working under water.

That is a good start. I think some familiarity with the scientific method helps a lot - <"Reliable testing methods?">.

I tend to regard the values from <"peer reviewed papers">, <"Universities"> and Water Companies* as "likely to be accurate", after that I'm dubious.

* Unfortunately I think you have to add a <"proviso now for water companies"> - <"How to improve resiliency of in-vitro plants?">.

cheers Darrel

 

[AquariusPeter]

@AquariusPeter , I think the greatest drawback of your tap water is high content of nitrates.
Now, I admit I'm presenting a minority opinion because many hobbyists live with such high nitrates happily, they even dose them to reach that level. Me, I believe it's quite unnecessary, even in hi-tech, and makes rather tricky to avoid nutrient imbalances.
I have a theory that plants' growth is "pulled" by nitrogen uptake. If nitrogen is abundant, plants "want" to grow quickly and demand other nutrients in huge amount, too. First and foremost, phosphorus. But if there are phosphates abundant in the water, then dosing micros is difficult, because phosphates are scavengers of micros (primarily iron). Then you need to use advanced chelates. Overdosing iron is harmless, but overdosing other micros is potentially dangerous.
Like I said, mine is a minority opinion. Most people can live with described situation, and believe that that's the normal way. I find my way easier and more natural.

Hi,
I have heard that somewhere about that the phospates are playing significant role according to micro. I have been watching lots of youtubers, many of them warning about phospates and nitrates that they are algae creators. And I just simply didn't use them too much. So that theory is confirmed what i can see. More phospates then we need more Fe.

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

I have been watching lots of youtubers, many of them warning about phospates and nitrates that they are algae creators

Just don't listen to them <"GSA and Phosphate">.

cheers Darrel

 

[AquariusPeter]

Hi,

The CaCO3 value includes the dKH (alkalinity) and 1dKH = 17.86 ppm CaCO3 (<"Water Hardness">) so ~12 dKH.

I understand right now so if then 1dKH = 17.86 ppm so then 212.94/17.86 = 12.03~12dKH.

Your water is, honestly, absolutely <"perfect for that">. I'd start with 10% tap, 90% RO.

I will start slowly moving onto Tap. I received today thoe minerals from GHNelson. Can i still use them with tap ?

Well done don't know even if I have a basic knowledge, as I mentioned I am a chemist, and I don't fully understand how elements are working under water.

Sorry for mistake. That message suppose to look.

" Well I don't know even if I have a basic knowledge, as I mentioned I am not a chemist, and I don't fully understand how elements are working under water." This is sometimes how my phone's keyboard doing too many autocorrrections.

Tomorrow i will do then water change with tap water. I will want use also those minerals Solufeed and Fe what i received today but first i will have to get Excel.


Thank you,

Best Regards

Peter

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

I will start slowly moving onto Tap. I received today thoe minerals from GHNelson. Can i still use them with tap ?

Your tap water is moderately hard and nitrate (NO3) rich, this means that you can add less of @GHNelson 's fertiliser and you may have issues with iron availability, @keef321 is your best bet for information. He has <"seen it, done it"> and now has the tee-shirt.

as I mentioned I am not a chemist, and I don't fully understand how elements are working under water.

<"It doesn't matter">.

That is why I like the <"Duckweed Index"> you just watch the plants - <"Duckweed Index questions"> and from there you make all your decisions <"based on plant growth">.

cheers Darrel