John q
Member
Neither have I. I m thinking the Heterotrophic bacteria somehow preference the water column in these situations rather than the un oxygenated filter?
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Cloudy Water Hazy Water and Algae!
- Thread starter AquariusPeter
- Start date
AquariusPeter
Member
Hi, Thank you for your help and responds all guys 🙏
When I started see those things I put that small internal filter for aeration since that time I have still.
I am considering this fact the surface movement might be too less. Actually I am on nightshift I am not able to do anything till tomorrow afternoon.
But my question is would it be a good idea to put spray bar on jbl e 702 and place under water in an up direction to the surface to cause the waves?
In fact my living room is quite shady and cool I have window from Northside.
I didn't know about this tank might not be quite cycled yet, but by every restart I have been keeping old water since the beggining.
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AquariusPeter
Member
Hi,
Yes I understand that Effect will not be noticible after iron added straight.
I noticed today before my work, hygrophila, giving new very small shots but they are still yellowish. From these posts what I received from you I understood that iron isn't mobile so these young ones(previous ones) will not be greener.
I added yesteday 2ml of flourish comprehensive after your recommendations.
My question is, if I still see the new shots are still yellowish, then do I wait? Or do I have to add more micro?
Kind Regards for all of you
Thanks you
AquariusPeter
Member
Hi, Thank you for your suggestions.
as soon as I wake up after nightshift I try add maybe spraybar underwater up direct to surface making bigger movement of surface.
Kind Regards
Thank you
Hi all,
cheers Darrel
See what happens, but you may need to try <"another chelator">, one that isn't based on <"ferrous gluconate">.
cheers Darrel
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AquariusPeter
Member
Hi,
I mount spray bar again. I placed it under water surface towards up the surface. Now I just checked and it is too up so when the water level will be below all water goes out of tank 🙃
I just correct it that spray bar but on the next water change I will have to check it it doesn't spray outside of the tank.
I placed photo with the red circle. Would anyone be able to tell me if is it safe to leave it like that?
I think maybe this tank is too low for external filters like that? Is only 38cm height.
Thanks you guys for all of your suggestion
Best Regards
Peter
I mount spray bar again. I placed it under water surface towards up the surface. Now I just checked and it is too up so when the water level will be below all water goes out of tank 🙃
I just correct it that spray bar but on the next water change I will have to check it it doesn't spray outside of the tank.
I placed photo with the red circle. Would anyone be able to tell me if is it safe to leave it like that?
I think maybe this tank is too low for external filters like that? Is only 38cm height.
Thanks you guys for all of your suggestion
Best Regards
Peter
Attachments
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AquariusPeter
Member
Hi,
I have also on fertilise from Colombo flora it is micro what it says on label and it was together with aquarium set.
And I have that one of the Aquadip Ferro.
Maybe I should use one of them for a try?
Thank you
Best Regards,
Peter
Hi all,
It is back to the <"red house brick analogy">, you can call it iron rich (which is true, it is red), but none of that iron is plant available. You can add as much iron as you like, but if it isn't plant available? It is the same as not adding any.
cheers Darrel
It doesn't really matter what the brand is called, it just depends on <"which chelator they use for iron">. They need to use one <"which is suitable for harder water">. I'll add in @keef321 .
It is back to the <"red house brick analogy">, you can call it iron rich (which is true, it is red), but none of that iron is plant available. You can add as much iron as you like, but if it isn't plant available? It is the same as not adding any.
cheers Darrel
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Hi all,
I probably should have put in a little more about solubility and ions in the <"answer above">.
Soluble salts
When you add a soluble salt, like <"potassium nitrate"> (KNO3), to water it disassociates (dissolves) fully into a potassium cation (K+) and a nitrate anion (NO3-). It will only not dissolve if you have added so much that you have exceeded the solubility limit (316 g / 1000 g water (20 °C)). Those K+ and NO3- then remain in solution because potassium and nitrate salts are all soluble.
Insoluble compounds
When you look at the chart above you can see that chloride (Cl-) anions are soluble, so if we add a chloride compound, like<"iron III (ferric) chloride"> (FeCl3.nH2O), to water we know that it will disassociate into a Fe+++ ion and 3 Cl- ions and that the 3 chloride anions (Cl-) will remain in solution.
What happens to the Fe+++ ion is dependent on the other ions already in solution. If we have hydroxide (OH-), bicarbonate (HCO3-) or <"phosphate (PO4---) ions in solution">? Then insoluble compounds are formed, these precipitate out of solution and <"that iron is no longer plant available">.
To keep iron ions (Fe+++) in solution we need to supply them as a "chelate" and how effective that chelate will be will depend upon how <"hard and alkaline the water is">.
cheers Darrel
I probably should have put in a little more about solubility and ions in the <"answer above">.
Soluble salts
When you add a soluble salt, like <"potassium nitrate"> (KNO3), to water it disassociates (dissolves) fully into a potassium cation (K+) and a nitrate anion (NO3-). It will only not dissolve if you have added so much that you have exceeded the solubility limit (316 g / 1000 g water (20 °C)). Those K+ and NO3- then remain in solution because potassium and nitrate salts are all soluble.
Insoluble compounds
When you look at the chart above you can see that chloride (Cl-) anions are soluble, so if we add a chloride compound, like<"iron III (ferric) chloride"> (FeCl3.nH2O), to water we know that it will disassociate into a Fe+++ ion and 3 Cl- ions and that the 3 chloride anions (Cl-) will remain in solution.
What happens to the Fe+++ ion is dependent on the other ions already in solution. If we have hydroxide (OH-), bicarbonate (HCO3-) or <"phosphate (PO4---) ions in solution">? Then insoluble compounds are formed, these precipitate out of solution and <"that iron is no longer plant available">.
To keep iron ions (Fe+++) in solution we need to supply them as a "chelate" and how effective that chelate will be will depend upon how <"hard and alkaline the water is">.
cheers Darrel
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_Maq_
Member
You explained it nicely, but for @AquariusPeter to fully understand, we should add that EDTA, HEDTA, DPTA & EDDHA are abbreviated names of certain organic acids which form chelates with iron. So, par example Fe-EDDHA is the most stable, but rather expensive and, if I'm not mistaken, gives water quite strong red-brownish tint. Fe-DPTA is much more common, quite stable, and this one is perhaps the chelated iron you should seek - either individually, or on the list of compounds of a given commercial blend.
AquariusPeter
Member
Hi all,
Sorry for questions but I am not chemist, but from this what I understood.
Usually in my aquarium I set Gh 7-8 and Kh is stable always 2 according to the tests.
I don't really know what pH is, but assuming if not using CO2 is 99% more than 7.
So according to that chart and if am not mistaken -I am looking for Fe EDTA and DPTA as Maq mentioned below
But these Brand not really saying what Chealtors the are using. How to know about what they use?
But If I started using CO2 in future let's say then I have to look for iron HEDTA???
Correct me if I am wrong.
Thank you all,
Best Regards
Peter
_Maq_
Member
Scientifically, pH is an abbreviation for concentration of hydrogen cations (proton) in logarithmic form.
Colloquially, it says whether the water is acidic (less than 7), neutral (7), or basic (more than 7). If your KH is 2 °d, then I deduce that your water is probably slightly basic (pH = 7.5 or a bit more). Therefore, you need chelated iron, and preferably chelated in more stable form.
Things will get a bit more complicated once you start CO2 injection. Your water will get acidic, but keep its alkalinity (KH). You'll have to try and see.
Manufacturers provide no details on actual contents: Some do and some do not. Quite often, their web pages contain specifications on their products. If you avoid those who don't, there still will be quite a few.
Sometimes, individual chemicals are available. Either some aquarist shops provide them, or laboratory stuff dealers. It depends on locality - I can get what I want in my country but have no idea how it works in the UK.
AquariusPeter
Member
Hi, all
I actually took from the cabinet flora grow colombo plant fertiliser. And I read the label on it and it says agent chelators used: EDTA, DTPA
On instruction says 1 pump per 5 litres so I added 3 pumps right now for try.
Thank you
Best regards
Peter
Hi all,
You could try <"Vitax (Chempak) Sequestered Iron">? or Bioly UK, FeEDDHA is out of stock but they have <"Chelated Iron DTPA 11% - Highly Soluble - Aquaponics / Hydroponics | eBay">
cheers Darrel
I use rainwater, so FeEDTA is fine for me. If I had harder water? I'd use FeEDDHA <"How to mix FeEDDHA"> and the <"pink tint"> method, I actually see the pink tinged water colour as an advantage rather than <"aesthetically displeasing">.
You could try <"Vitax (Chempak) Sequestered Iron">? or Bioly UK, FeEDDHA is out of stock but they have <"Chelated Iron DTPA 11% - Highly Soluble - Aquaponics / Hydroponics | eBay">
That should be fine. It will take a while to take effect, because it will only be <"new leaves that are greener">.
cheers Darrel
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AquariusPeter
Member
Hi,
If gH is more than 15? And kH more than 7?
How does it work with the red plants for an example my ludwigia palustris red which is almost dead... but I will do everything to save all my plants...
Should i expect the new shots from Ludwigia palustris red or alternanthera would be more reddish?? Cause now the new shots are pink ish...
Thank a lot for you help,
Best regards,
Peter
Harder you mean about more gH and kH ? Above what values do we use then FeEDDHA ?
If gH is more than 15? And kH more than 7?
Could i try this one also with those solufeed ? Together?
Yes, that is sth what I just now remember thank to you 😊 🙏 beware leaves suppost to be greener.
How does it work with the red plants for an example my ludwigia palustris red which is almost dead... but I will do everything to save all my plants...
Should i expect the new shots from Ludwigia palustris red or alternanthera would be more reddish?? Cause now the new shots are pink ish...
Thank a lot for you help,
Best regards,
Peter
Your photos do look like classic iron deficiency. You can find plenty of other examples and photos of this in this thread
I had been using the all-in-one fert APT EI that includes EDTA, DTPA & EDDHA and found that they were NOT in enough quantity to overcome the iron deficiency. Do not dispair though, it can be overcome. The plants only need a very small amount of iron, but it is very hard for them to aquire it in water with a high PH and or Hard Water. If you are a co2 user, then dosing iron becomes even more important, as you have the pedal hard on the car accelarator as such, due to higher light levels, and your plants will show deficiencies quicker.
For me the solution was to dose pre-mixed TNC DTPA Iron (AT) that you can get off amazon, together with EDDHA from Bioly (Iron Plus B), and Seachchem Iron. If injecting Co2, you need to dose these just before the lights come on, as your PH will have dropped to a low level, giving the iron it's best chance of staying in the water for longer. I found it was best to dose this on a seperate day to your all-in-one / Macros. I also ended up dosing Manganese, as I found this helped for me (it might not for you). I would try DTPA first, and see if your plants react, maybe try 0.5ppm. For me I did some testing and found DTPA by itself helped a fair bit, EDDHA by itself helped a bit, but them all mixed together provided the best results (I could cause white leaves by stopping dosing either). I highly suggested using Frogbit for Duckweed Index to give you an idea if it is working. For me at first the frogbit would just melt, but after dosing iron, the new leaves would green up (NOTE: it is only the new growth that will be green). The great thing about Frogbit is when it has iron it will grow quickly, and you will see the new green leaves.
I hope showing this helps. This was my tank at its worse before the iron deficiency was diagnosed and sorted, everything was dying:
and this was it after dosing iron. Note: I had to take the seiryu stone out, and that reduced the hardness a bit.
Here I am still having problems with some plants in my hard water to the right with the rotala, but other plants are growing again.
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Hi all,
Thanks @keef321 .
You can use FeDTPA and FeEDDHA for all the water types we are going to have in our tanks. If you have more than about 4dKH alkalinity then pH will always be ~ pH 8 and FeEDTA may not provide enough plant available iron (Fe).
cheers Darrel
Thanks @keef321 .
Yes, normally permanent harness (dGH) and alkalinity or carbonate (or temporary) hardness (dKH) increase together because they are both derived from limestone (CaCO3) and that supplies 1 dGH to 1 dKH. Have a look at <"Some handy facts about water">.
You can use FeDTPA and FeEDDHA for all the water types we are going to have in our tanks. If you have more than about 4dKH alkalinity then pH will always be ~ pH 8 and FeEDTA may not provide enough plant available iron (Fe).
Yes, together. Have a look at <"Above 8"> and the <"Hybrid Duckweed Index">.
They may initially be greener, but as they perk up I'd expect them to colour up, possibly dependent <"on some other factors">.
cheers Darrel
Hi all,
That noise you can hear (wherever you are) is me throwing <"my toys out of the pram again">.
cheers Darrel
Even I'm amazed by that. It is <"Frogbit Envy"> all <"over again">.and this was it after dosing iron. Note: I had to take the seiryu stone out, and that reduced the hardness a bit.
That noise you can hear (wherever you are) is me throwing <"my toys out of the pram again">.
cheers Darrel
@dw1305 It’s funny looking back at it now, I learnt so much about iron deficiency and dealing with many different algae’s and it took lots and lots of time and effort to resolve. but, I ended up with the other problem of plants growing just too damn quick, and spending lots of time trimming 🤣 I used to struggle growing (killing) pearl weed, and now I know why it’s called a weed. I just re-scaped a month ago to a more nature style for a change with less stem plants, and to learn growing new plants / styles. I really do like the Dutch / stem scapes so will definitely do one again, once I’ve recovered 😆
I’m sure @AquariusPeter will end up with the same problem, once his deficiency is resolved 😀
Overexpression of the FRO2 Ferric Chelate Reductase Confers Tolerance to Growth on Low Iron and Uncovers Posttranscriptional Control
Abstract. The Arabidopsis FRO2 gene encodes the low-iron-inducible ferric chelate reductase responsible for reduction of iron at the root surface. Here, we repo
academic.oup.com
Someone had mentioned in this forum that freezing ice cubes of Iron (EDDHA etc) and burying them in the substrate could be a solution to the problem? (pun intended)
If your substrate is acidic (eg: ADA Amazonia?) and has high enough CEC, some of the Fe ions will be 'attracted' to the substrate.
Reading articles on terrestrial plants, its fascinating that the plant root system is able to generate its own iron chelate which can reduce Fe3+ to Fe2+ for uptake by the roots. Since many aquatic plants are not pure aquatic plants but have an emersed form, I presume that their root systems can also do this? So the idea of ice cubes of EDDHA is to get some Fe3+ / Fe2+ ions into the substrate close to the root system.
