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Black Spots on leaves

Cd2021

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Hi Ceg,

I have been looking into your response, still very lost.

But believe i have resolved the issue regarding the drop checking from re-reading your article. I simply pour the liquid into the DC and having a look yesterday there are no instructions on this and only a few bits written in Chinese. So doubt that this is any good.

I have found this (apologies if i'm not not allowed to post this here).
And from your thread i believe this will give me a far more accurate reading of PH levels on my tank.

I don't think that this will work my current indicator (too small) therefore will look for a replacement.

Thanks
Chris
 

ceg4048

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If I’m honest, I’ve never felt so dumb in my life. I just can’t seem to get my head around this. I’m so sorry. I understand the flow, light and balancing the co2 to match the requirements etc without blasting my light to focus on overall plant and tank health. I honestly thought the co2 was simply connect, monitor against the drop checker. Looking for a Ph drop of 1.
Hi Chris,
Really, there is no need to feel dumb. CO2 and it's application is the single most difficult thing that a hobbyist has to contend with in a freshwater tank. Just about everyone has difficulty and it's been estimated that over 90% of problems in a CO2 injected tank is due to CO2 problems, so you're in good company. I've been doing this since the early 90's and have suffered all the same pains.

4dKH water should not be difficult to find in bulk. I'm sure some of our sponsors sell it and I can only assume that the liquid that came with your DC is 4dKH but it's easy enough to test if you have a KH test kit. If you check the Tutorials section of the forum there is an article there explaining the use of the DC. The pitfall is that it takes time to register a reading so when you look at the color it's only telling you what happed some time in the past, so unless the CO2 concentration has been stable for an hour or two it cannot tell you what is happening in the present. A Ph probe or liquid kit tells you instantaneously what the value is. It good to have both to give you a better picture of how the gas is trending.
How can I monitor to ensure that my livestock isn’t being gassed?
Well, when you make an adjustment to your injection rate or to your gas ON time it's better if you do so on a day off when you have the time to monitor the fish. There is no other way than ti visually monitor their behavior to see if they start gasping at the surface or if their behavior changes over time. It take fish about 24 hours to become accustomed to the CO2 level in the tank.
You mentioned the number I need to aim for is 6.4ph, how did you get this? Is this gas on? Gas off? Then I’d expect to see this drop slightly over the week.
I got it from you several posts ago. You mentioned that the pH just before gas ON was 7.4, so just subtract 1, viola.
If you want a more accurate number then you'll need to determine the "natural" pH of the tank water by simply taking out a sample and shaking it up or letting it just sit for a few hours, then measuring the pH. Shaking it and allowing the sample to sit merely allows any CO2 that is in solution gas off in exactly the same way as a fizzy drink goes flat if you leave the bottle open for a while. Then you can use that pH value as your baseline and subtract 1 from that number. maybe the natural pH is higher than 7.4 and so maybe you don't need to drop it to 6.4. If the natural pH is lower then you know it has to drop lower. Only you can determine that starting number, but that's not very difficult, you just need to know.
Also remember that you do not need to be perfect. You just need to get close to your target and to ensure that the pH doesn't drop too far below the target because then you may be stressing the fish unnecessarily.

Cheers,
 

Cd2021

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Hi Ceg,


Just seen that my last response for some reason didn't submit, how odd. Wow, long time in the hobby, the images of your tanks in the articles are stunning!!

I think it's starting to make a lot more sense to me now, seem to be gaining more an understanding. So, over the weekend I have making adjustments and think I’m pretty close to where I need to be and my figures were completely wrong previously.

Tap Water- 8.22 PH
Tank Water- 7.53.

Saturday:
Prior to co2 coming on topped up by approximately 7l:
2:30- 7.47
3:30- 6.82 (Light on)
4:00- 6.77
5:00- 6.71
5:30- 6.67
6:00- 6.64
6:30- 6.60
7.30- 6.60

It appears to be very late at reaching its lowest level. For Sunday upped the injection and adjusted gas on an hour earlier period:

2:10- 6.99
2:30- 6.88
3:00- 6.80
3:30- 6.72 (Light on)
4:00- 6.70
4:30- 6.67
5:00- 6.66
5:30- 6.61
6:00- 6.61
7:00- 6.60.

So even with additional gas, it didn’t seem to drop below 6.60. Still very close to being the 1ph of my tank water. Would you suggest turning up slightly again to achieve this 1ph drop or close enough?

For today, I have further adjusted the gas on to come on 4 hours before gas on, and will continue to PH profile from 3:30.

I have tried to attach a video of the tank prior to then an approximate 80% water change, to show the flow etc in the tank. But the site cannot seem to find the file. I'll try in a separate post. Ran out of time on the light time to picture after (will attached this evening). Removed the Hygrophila Siamensis 53b to try and treat in a double dose of excel, thinned out the crypts at the bottom to aid flow, trimmed some of the stem plants and removed as much BBA as I could see. It doesn't seem to be dropping off once turning the pinky colour.

Kind Regards
Chris
 

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Hi Chris,
trimmed some of the stem plants and removed as much BBA as I could see. It doesn't seem to be dropping off once turning the pinky colour.
Yes, you have to physically remove it. Even in death BBA is tenacious. The same goes for most of the other algae. You have to use the combination of every means to get them out of the tank. You have to fix the cause of the problem to get the plants healthy enough to resist the attacks and then you also kick the existing algae in the groin to forcibly evict them and then you have to do massive water changes to get rid of the spores which are still being produced by the algae that is hanging around.
So even with additional gas, it didn’t seem to drop below 6.60. Still very close to being the 1ph of my tank water. Would you suggest turning up slightly again to achieve this 1ph drop or close enough?

For today, I have further adjusted the gas on to come on 4 hours before gas on, and will continue to PH profile from 3:30.
Yeah, just keep incrementally increasing the injection rate so that the pH bottoms out just around lights on. As long as the fish are OK there is no problem. CO2 injection is the Rubik's Cube of planted tanks.
I think it's starting to make a lot more sense to me now, seem to be gaining more an understanding.
Good stuff mate. This is a win! 🏅
I have tried to attach a video of the tank prior to then an approximate 80% water change, to show the flow etc in the tank. But the site cannot seem to find the file.
Not sure about this. Did you first click the "Attach files" button on the lower left? Also, if the video is a you tube I think you can click the media button at the top of the post window and paste the url.

Cheers,
 

Cd2021

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Hi Ceg/Clive,

Didn’t know that was your name. What do you prefer on here? Been reading some of your other posts, getting the hang of the website now. Learning by the day and enjoying the reads.

I thought that may be the case, I was hoping that some of my clean up crew would eat it. Saying that I don’t think I have enough algae eaters, approx 12 Armano shrimp and 2 zebra nerite snails. Got a lot of of the bba out Sunday heavily trimming session. Still a few leaves etc to be done. I’ve removed the rock to get it off of there. I’m still dosing excel daily to the affected aeeas

I upped the gas slightly this evening, then will monitor tomorrow. Seem to be getting consistent results, just not quiet hitting that ph 1 drop. I’m remaining at 4 hours before lights on at present and will monitor again at the weekend.

Please find below a couple of YouTube links to videos that I’ve done of the tank, annoyingly YouTube kills the quality a little bit. And excuse what sounds like a heavy asthmatic/ smoker holding the camera lol.
You’ll see I thinned out the crypts on the right front and removed the 53b. Flow and surface agitation I’m not sure is enough.

Thanks
Chris
 

ceg4048

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Hi Chris,
I'm not partial to either name, so no worries.:)
Don't sweat too much if you are not able to hit target pH bang on. As long as it's consistent, and is close, then that will do. The fish are not in any distress, surface agitation looks about right, so this is all goodness and we have room to maneuver.
Thanks for the video! Yes, I can see that the crypts are thinned out and that the plants in the front and middle are swaying nicely. The plants in the rear are being robbed of flow a bit but they are not falling apart and you seem to be doing a great job of cleaning and removing the algae. I can see the gas falling straight down to the substrate along the front glass. That is classic spraybar technique and is exactly what we are hoping for. The energy does peter out somewhat when it's moving to the rear and does flail and loses the path a bit. Although I'm a shameless flow fanboy I don't like telling people to spend money to buy bigger, or more filters or pumps. We'd like to make the tank work with what we have. As long as you keep up the maintenance and as long as you don't get pushy with the light intensity then the plants will all get stronger. At some point, when they are stronger, then they won't need the glutaraldehyde treatment and will be able to deal with more light energy, but right now they just need to fatten up.

Glad you are learning and enjoying mate. Keep up the good work!

Cheers,
 

Cd2021

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Hi Ceg,

Just seen my response didn’t process. Think that’s where I do it at work but by bit during the day. How rude of me sorry!

Thanks for confirming with PH, I will continue to do what I’m doing and making the finer adjustments.

Regarding the flow, I’d agree but also surprised that 2x Oase biomaster 600’s aren’t up to it on a 245l tank. I think I’ll give it a go with fitting the coarser pre filter sponges and drill up to 3-4 times more holes and see how I get on. Would removing the sponges from the filter and adding in more seachem matrix to the trays assist with getting more from the filter? I open to suggestions of products if I can boost it further. Maybe not another couple of external filters, haha. I have a 1600l power head that can be used? Weirdly had a leak on my Oase biomaster 350 at the weekend (another tank rock only scape) so had to quickly get an internal filter and the aqua one maxi 104f provides far more power that the biomaster 600!!

Really appreciate your help. And tank is looking so much better by the day (bar me running out of excel). I’ll continue to do what I’m doing and pop an update on in about a months time.

Thanks again mate, if you’re ever in the UK I owe you a few beers 😁

thanks
Chris
 

ceg4048

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Hi Ceg,

Just seen my response didn’t process. Think that’s where I do it at work but by bit during the day. How rude of me sorry!

Thanks for confirming with PH, I will continue to do what I’m doing and making the finer adjustments.

Regarding the flow, I’d agree but also surprised that 2x Oase biomaster 600’s aren’t up to it on a 245l tank. I think I’ll give it a go with fitting the coarser pre filter sponges and drill up to 3-4 times more holes and see how I get on. Would removing the sponges from the filter and adding in more seachem matrix to the trays assist with getting more from the filter? I open to suggestions of products if I can boost it further. Maybe not another couple of external filters, haha. I have a 1600l power head that can be used? Weirdly had a leak on my Oase biomaster 350 at the weekend (another tank rock only scape) so had to quickly get an internal filter and the aqua one maxi 104f provides far more power that the biomaster 600!!

Really appreciate your help. And tank is looking so much better by the day (bar me running out of excel). I’ll continue to do what I’m doing and pop an update on in about a months time.

Thanks again mate, if you’re ever in the UK I owe you a few beers 😁

thanks
Chris
Hi Chris,
Thanks, looking forward to a few pints!
I wouldn't add anything more for now. As long as the plants in the rear are doing OK then leave well enough alone and allow the plants to settle in. Just remember to keep gently cleaning the plants' leaves with thumb and forefinger to remove the slimy biofilm and dirt that builds up over time on the top surface of the leaf. the plants that have bushy small leaves can just be gently held and shaken (not stirred) and sometimes you will see a cloud of dust billow out. Being OCD about cleaning will help a lot because plants become victims of their own success. The better they grow the more pollutants they eject into the water, so this has to be removed with water changes. Clean water will keep both plants and fish healthy.
Yeah, I guess at some point you'll want to delete the Excel because it is expensive. When things have cleared up the you can gradually lower the dosage over a few weeks.
Honestly the best media for your filter is some coarse foam and perhaps some activated charcoal. Filter media is yet another obsession with hobbyists, who are willing to spend lots of money on what is basically plastic gravel. There really is no special advantage of buying "Matrix", which is oddly, a more indicative name than they imagined because you really are living in The Matrix if you believe this stuff is worth the money or that it works better than Darrell's favorite alfagrog. More info in the thread biomedia for my 305

Cheers,
 

Cd2021

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Hi Ceg,

Sorry for really delayed response, been absolutely flat out at work getting ready for full reopening... finally! Hop on a plane, I’ll certainly get you a few pints over fish tank talk haha. Although can’t work out if your from US and based in UK as you quite often talk about ‘£’.
Over the 4/5 days with no excel more BBA appeared quite quickly, but back spot dosing and got the worst of it out. And at the same time gently rubbing leaves etc on certain areas daily only for a few minutes.

Regarding media, I’ve ordered myself 12 toy soldiers and will bin the matrix haha. That did make me laugh.

on a separate note, I’ve been looking into more threads and watching videos etc (dangerous I know). And have covered multiple holes on my spray bars so I have more velocity from the remaining holes and can definitely see and improvement and getting to the background plants.
I have a week off at the end of the month and I think I’ll rescape the tank. I think where it’s soo flat maybe an inch or two between front and back isn’t helping me and build more height into the scape.
Could I be really nosey and see some images of your tank/ tanks?

Many Thanks
Chris
 

ceg4048

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Sorry for really delayed response, been absolutely flat out at work getting ready for full reopening... finally! Hop on a plane, I’ll certainly get you a few pints over fish tank talk haha. Although can’t work out if your from US and based in UK as you quite often talk about ‘£’.
Hi Chris,
Yes, I'm in the US now but often have reference Sterling, Dollars or Euros and even Rubles as at one point or another I've lived in those countries, so either at the time of the post I was in that particular country or I was directing the post to the OP who was living in that country.
Over the 4/5 days with no excel more BBA appeared quite quickly, but back spot dosing and got the worst of it out. And at the same time gently rubbing leaves etc on certain areas daily only for a few minutes.
Are you sure you allowed the Excel to turn the tufts pink/purple? Can you make another upwards adjustment to the injection rate without the fish objecting? When you rub the leaves do they at first feel slimy and then after a few moments the sliminess disappeared, or were the leaves rough from the start?
I’ve been looking into more threads and watching videos etc (dangerous I know). And have covered multiple holes on my spray bars so I have more velocity from the remaining holes and can definitely see and improvement and getting to the background plants.
OK, well that's good news. I was still hoping to get a picture of what the streams exiting the spraybar look like when the water level is lowered at water change time. Maybe you can post a photo when you have the chance?
I have a week off at the end of the month and I think I’ll rescape the tank
OK, but ensure that you do a massive water change because kicking up the substrate tends to release ammonia from below, which can cause other types of blooms.
Could I be really nosey and see some images of your tank/ tanks?
My tanks been decommissioned for some time now, just sitting as if it were a dry start tank due to illness but here were a few examples:
9655626989_30e1eabf97_b.jpg


9641673078_dd60265a33_b.jpg


16431191126_cf14f99388_b.jpg

8395200948_dfcef0fd4c_b.jpg


Cheers,
 

Cd2021

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Hi Ceg,

Yeah that makes sense. I certainly couldn’t tell you prices or places in dollars. Not been to the US yet, maybe at some point in the future. Oh wow, lived in a few different countries.

Yes a lot of it turned pinky and seemed to be dying off. It’s no where near as bad as it got, but more certainly appeared. Especially on the glass, hygrophila pinnatifida and lower level plants. I got myself a new drop Checker, 4dkh water and solution. Has been on for about 24 hours on the picture attached. I’m readjusting the spray bars from moving them to cover some of the holes. So will check PH tomorrow and indicator and see if I can take a step up on co2. I have attached a couple of images of the surface agitation before and after adjustments of spray bar. I haven’t amended my light remains low and 6 hours. Can I ask your opinion on WRG leds and how to set them? Currently 50% red, 40 blue and 40 green. It’s a Chihiros wrgb2 as a reminder.

When rubbing the plants only the ones with bits of algae or generally not that healthy seemed to be slimy and some snapped between my fingers, the healthier ones were rough. Weirdly over the last week I have seen some microsorum dying which I have removed from the tank.

I do my water changes on a Sunday, so will get a video of this. Perfect day for it F1 then water changes.

My plan is to build up the right hand corner and the back area. And in additional hard scape. Still keeping to the triangular design, and have the crypts higher and maybe a drooping carpet of Monte Carlo. Add more depth into the scape and hopefully this will assist with my lacking flow. Yes definitely for the first week I think it will need daily water changes of approximately 50%. Keeps me occupied on the week off.

Those images are absolutely stunning. It’s kind of embarrassing putting images of mine anywhere those. Sorry to hear, hope you’re on the mend!

Many Thanks
Chris
 

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Cd2021

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Hi Ceg,

hope you’re well?

Please see pics below of the flow during water change. I took a video I can upload to YouTube if that’s easier.

Had a nightmare yesterday, my second tank (juvenile chindongo saulosi tank). Not planted at present, want to master this one first. Filter (biomaster 350) started leaking a couple of weeks ago, replaced the main seal. Still leaking, suspected it was the levelling of the shelf as a bit flimsy had running in the bath to an hour and was all good. Stripped tank, reinforced shelves. Rebuild, 10 mins later leaking. Trust me the hammer nearly came out 😂. Been in contact with Oase and they suspect a seal in the head has failed and needs a new head. £100 for the part, serves me right for buying used. Money towards the rescape gone. Debating repairing or getting a new filter perhaps a Fluval 307.

Anyways, back to the subject tank. Co2 extinguisher required replacement Saturday, but tank seems to be doing well.
Thanks
Chris
 

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ceg4048

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Please see pics below of the flow during water change. I took a video I can upload to YouTube if that’s easier.
Hi Chris,
There is no image taken from the side, but it seems the streams are quite weak as they are not reaching the front glass until they drop almost half the height of the tank. I would shorten the spraybar because there is a preassure drop along its length, so the longer the tube the greater the pressure loss. You really do not need the spraybar to be the entire length of the tank, especially if the penalty is loss of energy. One of the ways the spraybar (or any flow stream) helps is that the flow across to the front pane the causes a pressure drop in the area under the stream. This cause the water at the back of the tank to flow upwards along the back wall completing the loop. Low stream energy results in less of a pressure drop along the back wall.
You can demonstrate this principle if you place a sheet of paper on a flat surface and blow across the top of the paper. You'll see the paper lift off the table. The harder you blow the faster the paper rises off the table.

The only other ways of mitigating this issue is to either have a more muscular filter or a supplemental pump such as a Koralia.
Try shortening the bar by 30% and centering it. Then drop the water level and see if this is an improvement. Also, make sure you don't have any pinched hoses or that you do not have any connectors that reduce the diameter of the filter outlet.

Cheers,
 

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Hi Ceg,

Whoops, I’ll get that picture.

It makes complete sense. I can see that it flows out and down well, but not reaching the stem plants and the back and the health of these show this.

I run 2x Oase bio master 600’s on the tank and drilled holes into the pre filter tube to allow better flow and one of the pumps has the coarser from, but can’t really see a difference between them. I haven’t cut the pipes on either tank, so suspect that the excess is ruining my flow a bit. But isn’t running any reducers, just inline diffusers.

Unfortunately upgrading the filters won’t be an option. I’d be looking at 2x biomaster 800’s and £600 lighter

. But I do have one hydor korallia 1600 laying about or cut look at getting 2 more powerful ones. Any recommendations? And where would you position?

I’ve attached a picture of the tank and you’ll see why the spray bars are laid out the way they are. I can’t shorten if I want to get to the centre of the tank and if i shorten the whole middle of the tank seems to be missing the flow and co2.

Thanks
Chris
 

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ceg4048

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I can’t shorten if I want to get to the centre of the tank and if i shorten the whole middle of the tank seems to be missing the flow and co2.
Hi Chris,
Well the center would be the best place to mount the Koralia, but it looks like most of your plant mass is on the right hand side, so maybe first try to mount the Karalia on that side just under the mid-point of that bar and see how it goes.

Cheers,
 

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Hi Ceg,

Wicked, i'll get that mounted and will send a video of how it looks. Then drop the level so can see the side view all in one hit.

Do you like 1600lph will be enough?

Thanks again,
Chris
 

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Hi Ceg,

How are you? Had a busy one after the F1 yesterday.

So basically, looked at the piping to and from the tank and was excessive amounts of pipe and found the right side filter (as you look at the tank), the smaller bit of pipe before the inline diffuser had a slight kink in it. So i disconnected each pipe give it a good clean and shortened each to a sensible level, in total i suspect i remove around 3-4ft.

Please see video's below of front and side flow during the water change. Can see an improvement of the spray coming out the spray bars.
https://youtu.be/V3oPQ93LW34
https://youtube.com/shorts/cQWaiQ2M7ZE?feature=share

Then please see video below after the water change from the end of the tank showing the gas exchange and flow. Not sure if you can see it properly on camera.

https://youtube.com/shorts/cQWaiQ2M7ZE?feature=share

I haven't fitted the power head yet (running out of sockets if i'm honest, but may be able to have a play around. What do you think?

Kind Regards
Chris

Ps, no idea why this is all underlined.
 

Cd2021

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A couple of further images.
 

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ceg4048

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How are you? Had a busy one after the F1 yesterday.

So basically, looked at the piping to and from the tank and was excessive amounts of pipe and found the right side filter (as you look at the tank), the smaller bit of pipe before the inline diffuser had a slight kink in it. So i disconnected each pipe give it a good clean and shortened each to a sensible level, in total i suspect i remove around 3-4ft.
Hi Chris,
Yeah, I was watching the race myself. Shame about Hamilton going off into the gravel. He also had a slow pit at a critical moment at tire change time. I thought he should have stayed out another lap. I thought his comeback from 9th was epic though.

Looking at the videos it seems you managed to eek out a bit more power. I can see the Ludwigia moving a bit so that has to be a nice improvement. The drop of the jets is not nearly as much as it was before, so I'd be quite happy with that. The real test is if the tank can live without the Excel.

Instead of stopping it cold turkey perhaps you can slowly withdraw by just halving the dosage for a week or two and then halving it again and so forth.
Ps, no idea why this is all underlined.
On the far left of the text formatting is an icon labeled "remove formatting". If you select the text and then hit that button it should do the trick. Instead of directly pasting the youtube link in the body of the text try clicking the "insert link" and pasting in the box, or better yet, click the "Media" button and paste the URL in the box - so it appears like this:
Cheers,
 

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