Alternanthera Reineckii struggling or just settling in?

[Hanuman]

The Amano are well fed. So I'm pretty sure it's not them doing the damage. As I've said, I've never seen them actually eating on the plants, just with bits that have come off the plants. I assumed it was them making the damage worse because that was what seemed to be the consesnsus on other sites.

They will definitely eat plant matter that is starting to rot or damaged. That's why many people sometimes assume they eat plants.

a. 4 Crossochelius Reticulatus (Silver flying fox)c. 2 Bristlenose Plecod. 4 Nerite Snailse. 20 Amano Shrimpf. 30+ Malaysian Trumpet Snailsg. 4 Ramshorn Snails.

All these can potentially eat decaying leaves.

AR is normally an easy plant but it does not like being moved. Since you just planted it, it is going through a period of adaptation and this can lead to melts. I would be you I would remove all dead/decaying material.

 

[Andy Pierce]

Only people I have seen complain about amanos eating their plants is because they were not feeding their shrimps properly. Amanos need proteine source food. They can't survive on just algae or plant matter. If it's not given to them they will simply try to find the softest and tastier plants.

I can say with certainty that amanos can in fact survive on just algae or plant matter. I expect most people have amanos because they want them to eat algae but why the amanos would do that when abundant tasty snack food is made regularly available could be questioned...

 

[Hanuman]

I can say with certainty that amanos can in fact survive on just algae or plant matter.

As stated by @MichaelJ amanos are omnivors. So are we, humans. In fact, technically, we are carnivore, but let's keep that for another discussion. So, can we live from vegetables ++ alone? Sure, some do to some extent since vegetables also contain some protein. Is it ideal, it is not because we have not evolved to consume carbohydrates and fats alone. Same goes for these shrimps. They need their share of protein. I doubt that algae and dead leaves contains enough of protein to give them a balanced diet. Can they survive? Probably yes. Is it ideal, I doubt it.

I expect most people have amanos because they want them to eat algae but why the amanos would do that when abundant tasty snack food is made regularly available could be questioned...

Yes, and there lies one of the most disturbing problems of this hobby. Buying animals to solve a specific human problem without consideration of the animal needs.

 

[Franks]

I've found that shrimp are like dogs though, they will simply graze constantly regardless of the food source. They are eating machines. Give them the off wafer and once it's gone, they'll just eat whatever else there is. I wouldn't rely on the expectation for them to just eat algae. They'll eat that and anything else.

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

Indeed, I'm relying on Fish waste to add the N & P.

If I was <"adding CO2"> I would add a complete fertiliser, it is just back to <"Liebig's limiting nutrient">. The plants can only make use of the extra (CO2) inorganic carbon if their growth isn't limited by the deficiency of another nutrient.

I do have Flourish Nitrogen in the cupboard but my Nitrate is usually a bit higher (arond 25), I've just had a lot of water change in the last month so it's a little low. I don't currently have any Phosphate ferts except the small amount in the flourish tabs.

In terms of the fertiliser I'd recommend a mix <"designed for hydroponics">, my opinion is that all the sellers of <"aquarium fertilisers"> are engaged in a contest to sell the <"World's most expensive water">. It really doesn't matter where an ion has come from.

Honestly they do, a NO3- ion is a NO3- ion, is a NO3- ion etc. they are exactly the same wherever they came from, the elements on earth have been here since the formation of the earth, they were formed in the nuclear furnace of a massive yellow giant star, before being flung across the universe in a huge supernova explosion. They don't have any memory of the compounds that they combined in.

I'm not a great fan of nitrate (NO3-) test kits, that isn't because I'm not interested in the NO3 value, but it is because there are a <"number of issues"> in getting an accurate value.

I see you have Amazon Frogbit (Limnobium laevigatum) and that is actually what I use as my <"nutrient test kit">, via its <"growth and leaf colour">. I think yours looks OK at the moment.

cheers Darrel

 

[palcente]

I see what you mean, yes those tips are a little odd, I hadn't noticed. So is this all pointing to a lack of nutrient from the substrate/water. I'll PO test when the kit arrives and add ferts if it's low. Is there any harm to overdosing Root tabs? At the moment they're in a grid every 15cm or so. Replenished every 3 months (last ones went in the same day as the stems.

You are getting a lot of advice and I would not be surprised if you get overwhelmed with it 😀

How about you take small steps and not touch the substrate until you solve the easy and measurable issues, like getting Sessiflora right - it's the easiest and fastest growing non-floating plant ever- it mostly uses stuff from the water column - should not struggle in any co2 injected tank. It is also the best indicator - gives you "readings" pretty much daily - just have to look at it every day. You will know your ferts are ok when Sessiflora grows well and your floaters roughly double in volume each week (note that floaters are drawing the most of the ferts from the water as they get "double" the light and double the co2 - maybe remove some of them if you don't need the shade). You have to realize once the plants start taking off (increasing in volume), 15ppm of NO3 per week is not going to be enough- you will probably need to double or triple that. I have a smaller tank than you, started with adding 20ppm of NO3 per week, but as the plants grew I had to adjust the dose (saw fast grower choking just like yours) and currently add 20 of NO3 every couple of days- the "20ppm of this and 10ppm of that" everybody quotes is not a silver bullet, just a good starting point. You have to listen to your plants 🙂

I'd also consider temporarily moving below hardscape out of the way - the stones look as they could be blocking the flow from the spray bar!

Best,
Matt

 

[LightingBamboozled]

Phosphate test kit arrived today. Result is very very blue. Probably 5 maybe higher. I will do a test with diluted tank water later to nail in a value. So it seems like that's not my limiting nutrient.

If I was <"adding CO2"> I would add a complete fertiliser, it is just back to <"Liebig's limiting nutrient">. The plants can only make use of the extra (CO2) inorganic carbon if their growth isn't limited by the deficiency of another nutrient.

CO2 was initially added as the first plant symptom I had was Masses of BBA. (Pretty much every plant and stone in the tank at the time had a fir coat) and the CO2 seemed to help coupled with adjusting hardscape to even out the flow pattern.

I see you have Amazon Frogbit (Limnobium laevigatum) and that is actually what I use as my <"nutrient test kit">, via its <"growth and leaf colour">. I think yours looks OK at the moment.

The frogbit is looking the healthiest it's looked in all its time in the tank at the moment. It used to be intermittently pale and holey with a lot of yellow, at the moment it's bright green, strong leaves and growing so fast I am considering adding a midweek harvest because it's pretty much doubling in area weekly.

floaters are drawing the most of the ferts from the water as they get "double" the light and double the co2 - maybe remove some of them if you don't need the shade).

The shade is for the fishes' benefit, it's calmed the tank down to have a shady end. As mentioned above, I am thinking I need to thin them out more regularly. They've basically covered that end of the tank at this point so it's full shade rather than dappled but I would like to keep some level of floating plants to shade that end

solve the easy and measurable issues, like getting Sessiflora right - it's the easiest and fastest growing non-floating plant ever- it mostly uses stuff from the water column - should not struggle in any co2 injected tank. It is also the best indicator - gives you "readings" pretty much daily - just have to look at it every day. You will know your ferts are ok when Sessiflora grows well

So given the sessiflora is leggy with some stunting what tweak would you recommend as a first step. As far as I can see my easy and free options are CO2 down, NO3 up, No3 and PO down (water changes adjusting feeding), Micros up or down and husbandry (pruning etc.). and I can buy Phosphate and Potassium to adjust those in the short to medium term.

I'd also consider temporarily moving below hardscape out of the way - the stones look as they could be blocking the flow from the spray bar!

There is another vertical spray bar which has my CO2 diffuser inline to it at the front right spraying along the front of the tank. The three bits of wood on the right help draw that CO2 flow along the front of the tank before it gets drawn down and then to the back. Without those the CO2 tended to get deflected into the vallis and didn't go to the rest of the tank. Even with the small cave and lava rock in the middle, there is plenty of flow at the back middle and lots of microbubbles passing around the stem plants, but I can move those two to the back with no major issues. (although I will miss shrimp rock at the front, it's a fun spot to watch.
Would you recommend making that hardscape move and then observing changes over a few days before anything else or...?

I don't want to do a hundred things but I don't really have a solid idea for a step 1.

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

CO2 was initially added as the first plant symptom I had was Masses of BBA.

Black Brush Algae (BBA) is a strange one, we have plenty of threads on it, but very few answers <"What exactly causes BBA?">.

The frogbit is looking the healthiest it's looked in all its time in the tank at the moment. It used to be intermittently pale and holey with a lot of yellow, at the moment it's bright green, strong leaves and growing so fast

"Pale and holey" may have been an iron (Fe++(+)) availability issue, if it was in the newest leaves? or magnesium (Mg++) in older leaves. Have a look at <"Deficiency"> and links.

In terms of what is happening now? I'm going to say just keep on going the same way, that is what the Frogbit is telling you.

Phosphate test kit arrived today. Result is very very blue. Probably 5 maybe higher. I will do a test with diluted tank water later to nail in a value.

Phosphate (PO4---) testing is a lot easier than nitrate, but <"serial dilution is always a good idea">. I'd guess it is probably the root tabs that are giving you the elevated PO4--- readings.

cheers Darrel

 

[LightingBamboozled]

Ok, either the test kit I got is busted or my tap water is also between 2 and 10 mg/L for Phosphate. Identical color to the tank, truly blue blue, so serial dilution isn't going to help me here...


I believe, looking at the links) the frogbit issue was Mg deficiency but I never actively changed anything to fix it and the plants just started improving... It was after I switched fertilisers so maybe the balance was better in APT 1 than the previous.

 

[LightingBamboozled]

Checked tap water again this morning with care to shake everything, dose perfectly etc. It's showing as pretty much spot on 5mg/l using the API test kit.
I'm sort of stumped as to what to do for the Limnophila sessiliflora. Advice here and elsewhere seems very mixed as to what might be a sensible first step. I don't mind if I lose the AR and end up replacing it but I don't really know how to start diagnosing the problem.

 

[LightingBamboozled]

One thing that may also be having an impact, the lights on theis tank were installed when plants weren't even a consideration and definitely favour the front of the tank. Don't know if that is playing a part in all this.
In detail. The bulbs are roughly 2 Inches and 5 inches from the front of the tank (which is approx 18 inches wide) Set approx 5 inches above the surface of the water. Both have reflectors on, they're the shiny plastic ones although they don't quite cover the full length of the tubes.

 

[_Maq_]

Amanos need proteine source food. They can't survive on just algae or plant matter.

All dwarf shrimps needs protein actually... they are omnivorous bottom feeding scavengers

Proteins are not restricted to animal food. In fact, algae belong among the richest sources of proteins.
So, shrimps may be omnivores, but mentioning the need for proteins is off-mark.

 

[_Maq_]

The plants can only make use of the extra (CO2) inorganic carbon if their growth isn't limited by the deficiency of another nutrient.

Is it really like that?
I don't deny Liebig's law relevancy, yet I suspect things are a bit more complicated. If there's a lack of (some) nutrients, plants still photosynthesize and create sugars. For respiration, for stock, for structural tissues largely devoid of other elements but C-H-O.
I suspect there's some hierarchy among resources of growth. CO2 is perhaps the first, highest. If there's enough CO2, plants "want" to grow but lack of any nutrient can cause defective growth. Second to carbon is nitrogen, I believe.
I seldom observe nitrogen deficiency. Since I don't inject CO2, there's no strong "push" to grow faster than nitrogen supply allows. Abundance of other nutrients does not seem to provoke nitrogen-low growth (and nitrogen deficiency defects). Rather, the growth is simply slower.
On the other hand, if there's relatively more C and N, growth defects seem to be commonplace. So it's perhaps nitrogen uptake (backed by sufficient carbon) which creates demand for other nutrients. Here, your Limnobium may be a less-than-perfect indicator because it's never limited in carbon.

All above said is based just on my observations. It's not a statement of facts. In scientific literature, there's quite lively discussion on general relevance and modifications to Liebig's principle. The topic seems to remain open.

 

[Hanuman]

Proteins are not restricted to animal food. In fact, algae belong among the richest sources of proteins.

That's a fact, except that most if not all tanks don't contain a gazillion of algae sp and the biodiversity of a tank is pretty limited compared to the wild.

...] but mentioning the need for proteins is off-mark.

Not sure if you are a shrimp expert, but this is what I find all over the internet. This is just a quick selection:

Caridina multidentata - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Many aquarists believe that Amano shrimp can sustain themselves on algae in the aquarium alone, however, this is not the case. Amano shrimp thrive best on a diet of aquarium algae supplemented by algae wafers or spirulina flakes and occasional animal-based protein in the form of pellets, flakes, or frozen or live daphnia, mysis, etc.. It is also necessary to ensure there is calcium present in the water, calcium is vital to crustaceans in order for them to maintain their exoskeleton.

Amano Shrimp (Caridina multidentata) - The Free Freshwater and Saltwater Aquarium Encyclopedia Anyone Can Edit - The Aquarium Wiki

www.theaquariumwiki.com

They are renown for being algae eaters but when keeping them in larger groups, it is typically essential to provide them with extra food. Like other species of Dwarf Shrimp, the Amano Shrimp will eagerly accept food formulated for for bottom feeding fish and any aquatic invertebrates.

Amano Shrimp - Caridina Multidentata: A Complete Aquarist's Guide

Amano Shrimp is a relentless worker who will keep your tank clean from algae and leftovers. They keep Ammonia, nitrite and nitrate under check.

www.serendipitywave.com

We already know that Amano Shrimp feeds on algae and the leftovers and the bottom. Their ability to clean up the tank is unsurpassed, they are the ultimate squad for cleaning your aquarium tank.
Amanos are not stunning-looking creatures. However, we keep them for their ability to clean-up potential and not for their looks. They are relentless workers. Considering their size, Japonica Amano Shrimp is much more efficient than any other Shrimps.
Processed foods are strictly prohibited. If they get hooked to the taste of processed food, they will not do serve their purpose for which they are there in the tank.
That doesn’t mean they do not need any diet supplements from you. How many supplements all depend on the aggregates of algae and the waste present in the aquarium tank.
They are omnivores, their diet should consist of sinking pellets, frozen foods, vegetables.
For frozen snacks, you brine shrimp and blood worms will do the trick.
zucchini, squash, cucumber, etc. can be fed to them.

7 Best Shrimp Foods to Feed Your Freshwater Aquarium Shrimp

In the wild, dwarf shrimp are scavengers that eat a mix of protein, plant matter, & minerals. Find out our top 7 favorites foods to feed freshwater shrimp.

www.aquariumcoop.com

In reality, dwarf shrimp are last on the food chain, serving as scavengers that eat decaying plants, deceased animals, algae, and biofilm chock-full of microorganisms. Their diet consists of both proteins and vegetable matter, so the key is to provide a wide variety of foods to ensure that they don’t lack in essential nutrients and minerals.

I could go on and on but I think that should make the point. So I don't think mentioning the need for proteins is "off-mark", whatever that means. IMO, it is actually right on par to what the literature out there says.

 

[Hanuman]

I also asked OpenAI just to see what it had to say about it.


I regenerated the response to see if how it would answer again:


Scary AI. 😅

 

[LightingBamboozled]

I wouldn't trust anything open AI's tell you at the moment. Bear in mind they're built to give answers that convince humans not accurate answers.

 

[Hanuman]

I wouldn't trust anything open AI's tell you at the moment. Bear in mind they're built to give answers that convince humans not accurate answers.

I know, that was just for the humour.

 

[LightingBamboozled]

So I don't think mentioning the need for proteins is "off-mark", whatever that means. IMO, it is actually right on par to what the literature out there says.

I agree with Maq on this. We shouldn't be saying Amanos need "protein" when what we mean is they need "protein from animal sources".
In the wild the vast majority of their protein comes from plant sources so while they do best with some animal protein I'm not sure it's actually required. I suspect much like other omnivores they could be kept healthy on an all veg diet as long as it was balanced.

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

I don't deny Liebig's law relevancy, yet I suspect things are a bit more complicated.

Yes, I'm sure you are right and things are a bit more nuanced than that. It is back to a black and white answer in a <"shades of grey world">.

I suspect there's some hierarchy among resources of growth. CO2 is perhaps the first, highest. If there's enough CO2, plants "want" to grow but lack of any nutrient can cause defective growth. Second to carbon is nitrogen, I believe.

I'm not a plant physiologist, but I think that is likely to be true. The difference would mainly be for the micronutrients where I'm guessing, in most cases the difference is "some or none" and "some" is nearly always sufficient.

I seldom observe nitrogen deficiency

Come to my house.

cheers Darrel

 

[LightingBamboozled]

So, with the little info I have and tomorrow being tank maintenance day the plan is.

• Heavy vacuum of substrate and clean of prefilter sponges to deal with excess shed leaves
• Trim limnophila where it's right up at the spray bar outlet to avoid overgroth but not replant tips as they're where stunting is occurring
• Light prune of AR to remove the worst affected leaves but leave as much health plant mass as possible
• Thorough clean of filter pipes to ensure maximal flow.
• Replace Diffuser ceramic with the spare and clean current ceramic to ensure as much CO2 as possible getting to tank
• Slightly adjust position of lights and reflectors to increase light at back of tank (there's not a lot of wiggle room but I can do this.

Then I'll leave it a week with the current fertiliser dosing regimen and photoperiod to see what comes of it. I'm not sure if it was here or another place that suggested reducing the photoperiod. I'm tempted by that as well but don't want ot mess with too many variables at once.