Alternanthera Reineckii struggling or just settling in?

[LightingBamboozled]

About 3 weeks ago I added plants to my tank and cut back the jungle Vallis that was taking over in a bit of a mini rescape. One of the plants was AR. The leaves have been holey/melting since it was added and as soon as it's damaged my Amano's and SFF's are chewing through them.
Should I be trimming off all the damaged leaves? Leaving it to settle in? Giving up on AR and trying a flamingo Crypto?

1. Size: 250L (C. 5' x 18" x 18")
2. Age: Tank has been running since Oct 2021
3. Filtration: 2x Tetratec ex1200 with Foam, Biohome Ultimate and a small bag of purigen in one (added new wood around the same time as the AR and it was overdoing it on Tannins). One returns through a spray bar at the top back via an inline heater, the other returns via a vertical spray bar in the front right corner via CO2 atomiser.
4. Lighting: 2x 80w T5's with reflectors running 10hours
5. Substrate: Mixed fine sand and 1-2mm grain large sand/fine gravel.
6. Co2: Inline CO2Art Atomiser to vertical spraybar along the front of tank. I don't know the BPS because the liquid has evaporated and I've adjusted the rate up since.
7. Fertilizers: 4ml 1hr Aquarist APT 1 daily.
8. Water change regime: Usually around 30% fortnightly, Due to some filter maintenance and cutting back the vallis the last 3 weeks have been more like 50% weekly.
9. Plant list:

a. Vallis Spiralis - Nov 2021​

b. Saggitarius Subulata - Nov 2021 - very little of this survives​

c. Amazon Frogbit covering 25% of surface - Not sure, mid 2022 (there is some duckweed, red root and salvinia amongst it but mostly frogbit)​

d. Java Moss - Nov 2021 (heavily nibbled)​

e. Java Ferns - Mid to late 2022 (some algae growth on leaves and damaged tips)​

f. Crinum Calamistratum - August 2022​

g. Ceratopteris Thalictroides - Feb 2023​

h. Marsilea Crenata and Hirsuta - Feb 2023​

i. Limnophila Sessiliflora - Feb 2023​

j. Hygrophila Siamensis - Feb 2023​

k. Eleocharis acicularis 'mini - Feb 2023 (this is not taking well and the shrimp keep uprooting it)​

l. Lobelia Cardinalis 'mini' - Feb 2023​

10. Drop Checker: Just Green side of blue in the dark Left end of the tank, Bright green at the right side and middle
11. Inhabitants:

a. 20 Cherry Barbs​

b. 4 Crossochelius Reticulatus (Silver flying fox)​

c. 2 Bristlenose Pleco​

d. 4 Nerite Snails​

e. 20 Amano Shrimp​

f. 30+ Malaysian Trumpet Snails​

g. 4 Ramshorn Snails.​

12. Parameters:

a. Temp 25.5C​

b. Ammonia: 0​

c. Nitrite: 0​

d. Nitrate: About 15ppm?​

e. pH: 6.6​

f. kH: 3 (I have previously supplemented with BiCarb and had it higher but weaned back down to 3)​

g. gH: 8​

12. Photos:

a. Full tank shot, You can see the CO2 coming in from the right and then the water generally comes down the front glass and to the back.​

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b. Left and right ends of surface, back of tank is at thebottom, front is at the top. Lights were very much interfering with the quality of the photos. Frogbit pinned back by airline​

​

c. Close up of AR's

 

[Andy Pierce]

Should I be trimming off all the damaged leaves? Leaving it to settle in? Giving up on AR and trying a flamingo Crypto?

I'm in just your same situation with AR getting eaten by amanos and I'm heading towards giving up on AR in any amano shrimp environment (Planting Alternanthera reineckii ‘Mini’ - Fireplace aquarium). I've tried several different varieties of alternanthera and none of them have worked for me. For a fact I did have a go with crypt. flamingo as you suggest exactly because I was looking for something reddish to replace the AR but at least in my tank the flamingo was not even vaguely pink (Cryptocoryne wendtii ‘flamingo’ - Fireplace aquarium) - I'm so disappointed in that!

 

[erwin123]

(1) Amanos love AR
(2) You are not dosing N or P, and your substrate is sand/gravel. Are you depending on fish waste to provide it?

 

[LightingBamboozled]

(1) Amanos love AR
(2) You are not dosing N or P, and your substrate is sand/gravel. Are you depending on fish waste to provide it?

Indeed, I'm relying on Fish waste to add the N & P. I do have Flourish Nitrogen in the cupboard but my Nitrate is usually a bit higher (arond 25), I've just had a lot of water change in the last month so it's a little low. I don't currently have any Phosphate ferts except the small amount in the flourish tabs.

 

[LightingBamboozled]

the flamingo was not even vaguely pink - I'm so disappointed in that!

Wow, ths images really are disappointing. Hmm, I'll rule that out as a replacement then.

 

[alnitak]

Hello, when I read the title of the post, I jumped directly to the living stock list, craving for.. amano... Bingo ! 🙂

 

[LightingBamboozled]

Hello, when I read the title of the post, I jumped directly to the living stock list, craving for.. amano... Bingo ! 🙂

So TL;DR I need to accept that the AR will not survive and consider replacing it?

 

[Franks]

I've successfully kept Amano and AR if you are suggesting they eat it? I dose EI and inject Co2 BUT, I also use a dirted substrate with a high CEC capping layer. AR is a massive rooter and if you've just got sand, it's not going to be easy getting it growing healthily.

 

[palcente]

You can probably solve your AR problem by "dosing" a few green peas every once in a while.

Also, looks like you need more ferts or just tune down the light a bit. Maybe that's the reason why they are munching on those older leaves in the first place, they can sense they are dying off.

One more thing... have you consider dropping your temperature to 22-23? I think your fish will be happy with that and it would definitely curb Amano's appetite- they do not breed as much in lower temperatures and it's usually berried females that decimate the plants.

 

[Franks]

You can probably solve your AR problem by "dosing" a few green peas every once in a while.

Green peas? Can you elablorate on this technique - very curious. Your AR looks magnificent. mini varient I assume?

Thanks

 

[palcente]

Can you elablorate on this technique - very curious.

Absolutely 😀

 

[LightingBamboozled]

Also, looks like you need more ferts or just tune down the light a bit. Maybe that's the reason why they are munching on those older leaves in the first place, they can sense they are dying off.

When you say up the ferts any suggestion for how much? Up by 50% Double it? Or are you talking adding N P K to my ferts? I could pare the photo period back to 8 hours with no worries almost certainly.

One more thing... have you consider dropping your temperature to 22-23? I think your fish will be happy with that and it would definitely curb Amano's appetite- they do not breed as much in lower temperatures and it's usually berried females that decimate the plants.

I'm not sure if the britslenoses are Cirrhosus or Triradiatus. Triradiatus needs at least 24 so I might be able to drop a degree or so.

Peas, courgettes, the occasional carrot top or spinach leaf however are already a regular part of the aquarium feeding rotation. I will say I don't see the shrimp on the leaves much at all during the day, mostly on the leaves that have already fallen off, no idea what they get up to at night though.

 

[palcente]

I am not be the best person to ask about the ferts - every tank is different and you already add some premade product. There are chemistry wizards at UKAPS and know their calculators and spreadsheets in and out and will be able to help you with how much to add. I myself went EI route with RO water as this was proven to work for many people in the past and so far it's been mostly successful. From your pictures, you have a lot of fast growers that are struggling - Lobelia and Sessiflora behind AR, which looks stunted and a lot of green spot algae and deteriorating old growth, so I would test levels of Nitrogen/Phosphates in the first instance. You also have inert substrate - are you using any root tabs? I'd look into epiphyte plants with your set up - specially that you invested money into co2 system. With your substrate (not to take anything away, it's still fine and you don't need to change it) any plant that feeds off water column will have higher chance of becoming a success.

 

[LightingBamboozled]

From your pictures, you have a lot of fast growers that are struggling - Lobelia and Sessiflora behind AR, which looks stunted and a lot of green spot algae and deteriorating old growth

I'm not sure what you're seeing that makes you say the sessiliflora is struggling. It was about 4 inches when planted and I've had to trim it (and transferred a few of the trimmings) already in just 3 short weeks because it was right at the surface. The ones behind the AR on the far left are the transplanted tops that have just about doubled in size since planting. The lobelia has also grown significantly since introduction. I do need to get on top of the green spot, that's become noticeably more of a problem since the recent introductions in February.

I would test levels of Nitrogen/Phosphates in the first instance. You also have inert substrate - are you using any root tabs?

Nitrogen levels are in OP 15ppm Nitrate, as I say, had three weekends on the trot where significant maintenance meant bigger than usual water changes. 25ppm is more normal. Phosphate test is in the post so I don't know that figure yet.
Flourish Root tabs are the type I'm using. There's one pretty much directly under each of the AR's (that's part of how I chose where to put them)

I'd look into epiphyte plants with your set up - specially that you invested money into co2 system. With your substrate (not to take anything away, it's still fine and you don't need to change it) any plant that feeds off water column will have higher chance of becoming a success.

Funnily enough the epiphytic Java Fern has always been the plant I've had least success with in this tank. there are about 6 or seven of them in there and they do OK but not fantastic. Vallis is the only thing that's ever grown excellently to the point that even when I was dealing with a full fur coat of BBA it still managed to produce lots of healthy plant.

 

[palcente]

The pics are not great, but I circled up what looked stunted to me. It may just be the picture.

 

[Franks]

The Sessilflora looks leggy toward the tips which would suggest you have inadequate lighting or Co2 but this plant does not require much light at all. Due to the size of your tank, can you confirm you have adequate flow and a guarantee of good injection? Do you have pearling on the Sessilflora after an hour of lights on? That would be a good sign.

 

[Hanuman]

Only people I have seen complain about amanos eating their plants is because they were not feeding their shrimps properly. Amanos need proteine source food. They can't survive on just algae or plant matter. If it's not given to them they will simply try to find the softest and tastier plants.

 

[MichaelJ]

Amanos need proteine source food.

All dwarf shrimps needs protein actually... they are omnivorous bottom feeding scavengers 🙂

Cheers,
Michael

 

[LightingBamboozled]

Due to the size of your tank, can you confirm you have adequate flow and a guarantee of good injection? Do you have pearling on the Sessilflora after an hour of lights on? That would be a good sign.

There's definitely adequate flow, especially where these stems are. As for injection if I turn the BPS or Pressure up any more I get full on bubbles, not just microbubbles, that are audible. The tank is definitely higher CO2 to the right and less to the left so it might be a little under ideal.
I've not had the Sessiliflora ever pearl to my knowledge but I'm usually not with the tank early in the lighting period. The Vallis pearls occasionally.

Only people I have seen complain about amanos eating their plants is because they were not feeding their shrimps properly. Amanos need proteine source food. They can't survive on just algae or plant matter. If it's not given to them they will simply try to find the softest and tastier plants.

The Amano are well fed. So I'm pretty sure it's not them doing the damage. As I've said, I've never seen them actually eating on the plants, just with bits that have come off the plants. I assumed it was them making the damage worse because that was what seemed to be the consesnsus on other sites.

The pics are not great, but I circled up what looked stunted to me. It may just be the picture.

I see what you mean, yes those tips are a little odd, I hadn't noticed. So is this all pointing to a lack of nutrient from the substrate/water. I'll PO test when the kit arrives and add ferts if it's low. Is there any harm to overdosing Root tabs? At the moment they're in a grid every 15cm or so. Replenished every 3 months (last ones went in the same day as the stems.

 

[bazz]

Is there any harm to overdosing Root tabs? At the moment they're in a grid every 15cm or so. Replenished every 3 months (last ones went in the same day as the stems.

Hi,
What I do is add just 2 or 3 per week (obviously in different areas) during most water changes in a 250l tank rather than dosing the whole tank at once. My theory doing this is it will help to avoid Ammonia spikes (which some tabs are famous for) and also to provide more stability with regard to nutrients/water parameters.
Cheers!